Adolescence or aggression?

[Leo0106]

Hi,
This is my first post on this forum and I am hoping for a little reassurance with regards to my working cocker Leo.
Leo is nearly 10 months old and we have always had issues with his bite inhibition.
We got him at 12 weeks old, he came from a working dogs farm used for game keeping.
Around two weeks after we got him he began the usual puppy nipping. We attempted to nip this in the bud using whimpering, saying no, stopping play, switching it for a toy etc however we soon became aware that Leo would become more excited if we reacted at all and switched to a firm NO! And walking out of the room. This worked however Leo would often continue chasing us to jump up and bite until we left the room.

Anyway, moving on through the months this appeared to get a little better until he had a small Tumor removed, fairly soon after he was neutured.
Although Leo has got better, we still have reoccurring issues with seemingly unprovoked attacks. Some attacks we have idetified triggers for. He dosnt like to be approached when he has been told no for doing something and sometimes if we say no he will flip out at us (it really hurts!). And therefore we often use a lead in the house now, so that when we can say no we can use his lead to protect ourselves and get out of the room.
Other triggers include jumping up to bite us with a growl when he has said hello to someone on a walk and has then been asked to continue walking.
Another trigger has been putting his harness on, which we now encourage with a treat and that works. But sometimes his biting is just completely random. He'll come up for a cuddle and then decide to attack my arms, or I'll be sitting at the table and he will just start biting my legs. When I move to leave the room he ups the anty and growls and barks etc.

I should point out that we also have issues with overtiredness and attention seeking, much of which makes the biting worse.

My main worries are that (a) he is demonstrating aggressive behaviour that I may not be able to train him out of. ( he is never going to learn his true bite inhibition due to reacting so excitedly to whimpers and yelps. (C) he will end up getting overexcited with the wrong person and bite a child or someone not familiar to him.

He is, as working cockers are, very excitable, we have been doing lots of training on socialization, greeting visitors etc which seems to be working well, but we will still have atleast two 'attacks' every day. Which as you can imagine is exhausting and painful!

He goes for 3 40 minutes walks a day and also takes part in a lot of mental stimulation such as scentwork.

If you need any further information then I am happy to provide it but if anyone is able to provide me with reassurance and any guidance then I would be greatly appreciative!!

Many thanks in advance

[phoenix]

Sorry to hear this, you obviously have been following good advice, but it's tricky.   Before he bites suddenly, do you mean he doesn't give a warning growl?   Even an adolescent dog should do that. You mention overtiredness, How are you changing that? My dog trainer said that when a dog gets totally stressed/aroused with adrenalin ,it can take days to calm down.  Then you should keep them in a regular routine,  walking in well known routes where they don't get excited,  and exercise and brain work in quiet places.   
Get him to focus on you for everything, using positive food training methods. I've used a trainer, who starts by getting them to sit and look  at your eyes before getting the treat, for doing anything.  Jack has his morning meal measured out and used as training treats. It gives them the self control to wait until you, the boss,  select the good behaviour. I'm still working on impulsive behaviour problems, but it's a matter of spotting the tiniest reaction to a trigger before it takes hold.  The eye contact and treating is vital.   
If blood has been drawn, you have to be so careful that a stranger doesn't get involved and report you. I have used a muzzle sometimes just as a precaution. They look awful, but i got over it.
Crockerdile puppies are normal , but 10mths is time to behave!
Overall whatever we say, I  would recommend you invite a dog trainer to meet you all. Then they observe the dog , give recommendations and whether you need follow up, it's well worth the outlay.  But make sure they use positive training methods,   Many people feel that Cockers are oversensitive and very intelligent, so a loving and rewarding technique works best.

[ips]

Well it doesn't sound fun at all. Its a shame because having a dog is supposed to bring joy not the behaviour you are having to cope with. My initial reaction was that he wasn't getting enough physical exercise and mental stimulation but as I got further into the post you seem to have it covered.
I am sorry I cannot help with the practical side of what to do as I think you need professional help from someone who can see the dog. I wish you luck and hope you get it sorted 👍

[TheAdventuresofBarnaby]

He is, as working cockers are, very excitable...

Hi Leo106,  sorry to read of the difficulties you're facing.  We also have  WCS boy who's coming up for ten months.  Our boy play bites with me a good deal,  but its well inhibited and reserved only for me.  He doesn't do this to anyone else.

I've quoted from your OP because I'm not sure what you wrote is accurate.  This is our first WCS and I was expecting him to be a handful,  but that's proved untrue.  He is EXTREMELY calm and docile all of the time that he does not have a job to do.  Sleeping,  lazing around and digging holes in what used to be the lawn are his favourite leisure activities.  Its only when we are out on walks that he becomes ultra busily active. Even then I wouldn't call it excitable as he's very purposeful,  especially so when hunting out stuff I've hidden. 

It reads as though controlling or redirecting Leo's excitability might be the key to resolving the issues you're having.

All the best

Jon

[Londongirl]

Reading through your post, it is interesting to note that he reacts negatively to you saying 'no'. Somewhere along the line, he has paired that with something negative.

I'd suggest turning this on it's head and training self-control, not obedience to a cue. The thing about 'no' is that we humans can generalise it to different situations. Dogs can't. They pair one cue with one action. If you are using 'no' to mean a wide variety of things, it confuses them. If you've been saying 'No!' and immediately leaving the room, he has paired the cue with you leaving. So now when you say 'no' maybe he's stressed that you're going to leave. Or stressed because he knows you want something from him, but doesn't know what.

Cues should always be paired with requiring a behaviour from the dog - an action they can carry out. Have you taught him to go to a mat on command, and stay there? That's a great one for teaching self-control, and gives them an alternative behaviour that is incompatible with the behaviour you don't want ie the biting. It also makes them work for you in little ways around the house, which they just love. Basically, in every situation in which you want to say 'no', instead redirect your dog to do something else that you can then reward.

Have a look on YouTube for It's Yer Choice by Susan Garrett. That's a great starting point for teaching self-control.

[bmthmark]

Really sorry to hear you are having a difficult time. I agree with getting a behaviorist in as they should be able to sort him out or at least help.
On a positive he is still very young so you are doing the right thing and sorting this now, the older he gets the harder it will be.

Please keep us updated, i'm sorry I cannot offer any advice but I wish you all the luck. I'm sure you will crack this!

[sodpot2000]

Very sorry to hear about your problems and well done for trying to sort it out.

I would agree that you need help from a behaviorist/trainer. It needs to be someone who can see how everyone is interacting and try to spot what the triggers are.

One random thought is to have sight and hearing checked. Although your dog is a bit young, there can sometimes be bad reactions if a dog with impaired sight/hearing is surprised. Worth a check perhaps?

[Leo0106]

Hi all,
First of all, thankyou so much for all your kind replies. It is truly great to feel like I'm not going completely wrong.
I will try and answer all the questions people have asked so far below:
Initially, with regard to a trainer, we have been using the same trainer since he was 12 weeks old for his puppy courses, scentwork etc, she is fab and has seen his behaviour at home (she once got nipped!). She puts a lot of the issue down to becoming overexcited and also tells me off numerous times for giving too much verbal communication (I come from a childcare background so struggle to shut up sometimes!). She has given me lots of things to try but I limit how much I change at one time due to him being a very routined dog who appears to dislike too much change in one go.
Secondly, and this sort of applies to 2 of the lovely replies I received. (Pheonix and Londongirl), The overtiredness is something that was a complete shock to me, Leo really struggles to just.. give in and sleep. Instead, when he gets overtired he begins to attention seek (eating furniture etc). I first began to realise he was becoming overtired by watching how his mood changes. I soon realised I was expected too much awake time from him and began managing the situation by settling him for a sleep after ever 90minsish. This (today) appears to have worked really well. I have also been working hard to train him to settle on his bed (he has one in the lounge and in the kitchen). I guess my question with this is, what is the play to chill ratio?! should I expect him to be happy playing the majority of the time or chilling the majority of the time? I Work from home so he often is busy occupying himself, I then break this time by using scentwork training and walks every hour or so to ensure boredom does not take over.

Londongirl, thankyou so much for your comments about 'no!' I have come to realise that I am definitely too verbal and he definitely has a bad reaction to the word no and therefore I will start trying to redirect him instead.

Sodpot2000, I hadn't thought about hearing and sight issues. He has had one ear infection before.. could it cause any lasting effect? We did catch it quite early.

Please no one feel that I do not love my dog, I know I sound negative, in so many ways he is incredible! and has been so easy to train in terms of commands etc...I believe I may have just offered him too much attention at a young age.. working from home he has often had to 1-1 for long periods of time!

Thankyou so much again

[Leo0106]

Oops sorry, also Pheonix, he does sometimes offer me a warning signal that he is going to bite. This is usually a little whine and then approaches me. I have noticed this more and more whilst searching for triggers and have been trying to avoid a bite by removing myself from the room when he does make a sound such as this.

[Londongirl]

We know you love him, that was very evident in your post.

He is at a difficult age - Henry drove me mad when he was 10 months old as he would routinely bug me for attention. That's when I got really serious about redirecting behaviour rather than just telling him to b***** off. If you have a pup who's already excitable and struggles with bite inhibition, it's going to be a testing time. But you're on the right track seeking advice and I'm confident you'll come through this together.

You can make a fun game of reinforcing the 'got to your mat' behaviour by rewarding the release rather than the stay. Once Henry understood how to go to his mat on cue, I switched things around and only gave the reward for him coming off when I released him. I taught a 'release' cue separately so he knew that when I said 'release' from any control position (sit, down, etc) that meant to run to me for a fabulous reward. I then transferred that to the mat - making him wait longer and longer for the release. If he got off the bed without me releasing him, I didn't scold him or put him back on the bed, but he got no reward. Didn't take him long to work out that staying there meant something good would happen. Now he loves all his mats around the house and will chose to go and lie on them, because his little doggy brain has paired being on his bed with feeling good. I still intermittently do releases with jackpot rewards to maintain the training.

[Leo0106]

Thanks Pheonix, I will definatly try making it a game, sometimes at the minute he gets a little frustrated that I'm not rewarding him constantly for being in his bed and not sleeping.
Just another question (sorry) if I am settling him onto the bed so he can have some chill time, would you give him a chew or a toy to have? Ive tried this but he likes to jump out with the chew and prance around with it

[ips]

We know you love him, that was very evident in your post.

He is at a difficult age - Henry drove me mad when he was 10 months old as he would routinely bug me for attention. That's when I got really serious about redirecting behaviour rather than just telling him to b***** off. If you have a pup who's already excitable and struggles with bite inhibition, it's going to be a testing time. But you're on the right track seeking advice and I'm confident you'll come through this together.

You can make a fun game of reinforcing the 'got to your mat' behaviour by rewarding the release rather than the stay. Once Henry understood how to go to his mat on cue, I switched things around and only gave the reward for him coming off when I released him. I taught a 'release' cue separately so he knew that when I said 'release' from any control position (sit, down, etc) that meant to run to me for a fabulous reward. I then transferred that to the mat - making him wait longer and longer for the release. If he got off the bed without me releasing him, I didn't scold him or put him back on the bed, but he got no reward. Didn't take him long to work out that staying there meant something good would happen. Now he loves all his mats around the house and will chose to go and lie on them, because his little doggy brain has paired being on his bed with feeling good. I still intermittently do releases with jackpot rewards to maintain the training.

This is a great post from LG 👍

[Leo0106]

Sorry my last post was meant to thank you London girl for the game idea 😂

[Londongirl]

No worries, it's all these black dogs, easy to get us confused!

[Mudmagnets]

One recommendation the behavourist who is helping us had was to keep a diary stating what happened, what you did and the result, that way you can more easily see what the triggers are and the best ways to cope with them. With all the great suggestions and help you have had, putting them into action and then keeping details of their success may help you and the behavourist to see where you are. A

I use a programme called Excel, this way I can write it up every day on the computer and any input mistakes can be rectified b4 I print it out or send it to the behaviourist. you can just as easily do this on a piece of paper of course

Wishing you all the best, you obviously have your dogs interest at heart