Billy - Is this fear aggression? How to tell?

[Danni n Betty]

Sorry to hear your having problems with Billy.
I am having similar problems with Betty, although with people (strangers), rather than dogs.
She too does the freeze thing when people approach her, then when she realised she didnt like the smell of them she'd lunge into a barking fit. It seemed to be getting worse, almost as though she was getting 'braver', and I didnt know how to handle it, so I saw a behaviorist for help.
Basically, Penels saying the same as the behaviorist, she was taking the mick out of me! I live with her, she takes me out for walks, you get the idea!
First step is to be the boss! Make him sit and stay while you walk through the door ( every door!) first, then call him through to follow, has to be invited to join you on the couch, if you allow it, you have to eat first, pretend to eat from his bowl.
This may all be sooo obvious to most people, but I didnt know that letting Betty run ahead into the house and other things like that made her think she was top dog...cheeky mare!
Its a real pain to stick to it, it takes about half an hour to get to the kitchen sometimes! I too sometimes feel nervous when im trying to get her off the couch when she's just jumped up on it, when shes got that stuborn look on her face. But you have to stand your ground, I do believe they can sense your feelings
Sorry for rambling on havent spoke about Bettys probs before. I'll be really interested to hear how you get on with Billy.

[Jan/Billy]

It's really sad that you have lost your close relationship with Billy; it is over a year ago that he bit you isn't it? Did the behaviourist give you any explaination for that incident? Unless you can rationalise it and understand WHY he did it, then it will be very difficult to fully trust him again in any situation, iyswim 

Unfortunately not, he bit me a few weeks ago, the first time in 12 months  .  I was sat on the settee Bill was sat on the floor and I was stroking his back. I didn’t have eye contact with him as I was watching TV then all of a sudden he launched himself up me and I ended up with two teeth mark bruises on the back of my arm. He did the same thing to OH the following week only this time his bite missed (deliberately I think). It wasn’t until days later that I suddenly realised that Billy probably might have been guarding the uneaten take away items that were in the kitchen. It’s the only thing that makes sense.

But you’ve hit the nail on the head about it being difficult when you don’t understand something. It was a huge relief to realise that I at last had an explanation as to why he bit me but I still don’t truly understand it. As an example, if I had a big tasty chicken breast I could, if I wanted to, command Billy to sit and place the chicken close to him and command him to “leave” and he would do so 100% of the time. I could even go out of the room for a few seconds and he’d still be waiting for me to give him the command to eat it. So he can do that for me but then he bites me when I stroke him because there is tasty left overs in the kitchen. I don’t fully understand!!!.

He behaviourist said some of his problems were due to his genetic make up, most of it was him trying to be dominant although I know a lot of COL’s don’t agree with this theory. She told us to apply NILFF.

He is usually very good at home don’t have many problems with him.

Even though it’s been a month since he bit me I still cant bring myself to stroke him. I can walk him, groom him, bath him, check his teeth everything but I just cant stroke him as that’s when he bites. I knew after the first bite that I could never trust him 100% but just when things are good and I feel confident with him he goes and bites again. I do love him dearly though.

[Jan/Billy]

Sorry to hear your having problems with Billy.
I am having similar problems with Betty, although with people (strangers), rather than dogs.
She too does the freeze thing when people approach her, then when she realised she didnt like the smell of them she'd lunge into a barking fit. It seemed to be getting worse, almost as though she was getting 'braver', and I didnt know how to handle it, so I saw a behaviorist for help.

Hi Danni, Billy has only just started being like this with dogs, before that it was strangers very similar to your Betty. I think Billy does know his place, hes not allowed in our room, not allowed on any of the furniture, always waits for meals etc etc. But there is something i'm not doing right or he wouldn't be like this  .

Thanks for sharing your story - its helpful to share experiences and obtain advice makes you feel you're not alone 

[Colin]

OH doesn't agree with me putting him on the lead so much, he too says i shouldn't interfere. He'd rather see what happens and grab Billy if need be . I'm afraid of being one of those "irresponsible owners" we often discuss on here  .

  I personally don't mind if other offlead dogs do the 'freeze and air snap' thing to my dogs - it's all part and parcel of doggy behaviour, some have less tolerance than others and our dogs need to learn this and understand the signals and respect them. The only dogs that bother me are the ones that run up and attack without warning, they are the ones with irresponsible owners - or the persistent ones that don't take the hint to back off and the owners don't make any attempt to steer them away. It sounds like Billy gives warnings, so it's upto the other dogs to heed those warnings. I know if Misty or Stevie got such a warning they'd slink away very quickly - Jimmy would probably walk away too but he might huff and puff a bit and give an indignant moan. 

[scooby's mum]

OH doesn't agree with me putting him on the lead so much, he too says i shouldn't interfere. He'd rather see what happens and grab Billy if need be . I'm afraid of being one of those "irresponsible owners" we often discuss on here  .

  I personally don't mind if other offlead dogs do the 'freeze and air snap' thing to my dogs - it's all part and parcel of doggy behaviour, some have less tolerance than others and our dogs need to learn this and understand the signals and respect them.

I'm of the same thinking Colin, Scooby has experienced this behaviour from other dogs on numerous occasions, like you say, it's all part of normal doggy behavour and Scooby always backs off.

The other day though I was walking around the lake with a lady who has 3 blue roans, who were all off the lead.  A lady came along with a lab (off lead) and the lab had a sniff at one of the cockers, which had a ball in his mouth.  One of her other cockers then snapped at the lab (as a warning to "leave off our ball") and the lab's owner went mad   

Another time, we were walking around the reservoir and Scooby went over to play with this dog, admittedly, Scooby was jumping on this dog's back and this owner started protesting that my dog was attacking his.  I just explained that Scooby was being a bit dominant but he wasn't for having it. 

Sometimes it's the owners that need the training 

[Bluebell]

Another time, we were walking around the reservoir and Scooby went over to play with this dog, admittedly, Scooby was jumping on this dog's back and this owner started protesting that my dog was attacking his.  I just explained that Scooby was being a bit dominant but he wasn't for having it. 

If Scooby had done this to my Vizsla he would have been told off!!! Very bad manners to jump on someones back uninvited

[Helen]

Another time, we were walking around the reservoir and Scooby went over to play with this dog, admittedly, Scooby was jumping on this dog's back and this owner started protesting that my dog was attacking his.  I just explained that Scooby was being a bit dominant but he wasn't for having it. 

If Scooby had done this to my Vizsla he would have been told off!!! Very bad manners to jump on someones back uninvited

yes, jarv (worker) doesn't like bad manners...he wouldn't be particularly impressed either.  Scooby wasn't attacking his dog but wasn't being particularly polite.  I know a lot of dogs that don't like being jumped on or pestered or barked at or humped on or bullied.

Most other dogs get the message when there is a bit of vocal telling off (and i'm pretty sure from what you say Scooby does too)...it's just when the dog continues that there is an issue in my view (ie the dog bothering the one telling it off keeps ON bothering, which summarises the dog next door completely )



Jan, I agree with penel.  It must be soo hard being worried about stroking your beautiful boy, and billy must pick up on your feelings...are there any other behaviourists you can talk to about it locally?
hx





 

[scooby's mum]

Another time, we were walking around the reservoir and Scooby went over to play with this dog, admittedly, Scooby was jumping on this dog's back and this owner started protesting that my dog was attacking his.  I just explained that Scooby was being a bit dominant but he wasn't for having it. 

If Scooby had done this to my Vizsla he would have been told off!!! Very bad manners to jump on someones back uninvited

I keep telling Scooby this but he just doesn't listen    To be fair, the other dog didn't seem to mind - it was just his owner.  Other dogs have done this to Scooby and he's told them off.

And you're right, if Scooby has done this and been told off by the other dog he backs off straight away.

[maxnlilysmum]

Max started being a bit aggresive with other dogs after we got Lily (he was fine till then so I put it down to being possessive/protective to Lily).  I used to be terrible if I saw another dog coming I would recall Max and get him on the lead quick, to avoid any confrontations.  Max got wise to this and if he spotted the dog before I got him on the lead, he'd be off giving it all the warning growls etc etc, meanwhile I'm panicking, trying to grab and shouting him.  It got to the stage I hated walking him I was always so tense and ever wary of what might be round the next corner.  On odd times we'd meet a strange dog that I'd not had time to panic about and I was finding that generally Max wasn't that bothered about it.  I'm fairly sure that I was making things worse, he was sensing my panic and thought the dog approaching was a threat to us so had a go at it!  Now I dont bother I just let him have a sniff, I remain calm, but watch his body language (when he's not happy the bag of treats come out of my pocket and I quickly get his attention on to the nice things in the treat bag).

Touch wood I've not had any probs lately (well not major ones anyway, and certainly nothing major that Max has started anyway, but thats a different story anyhow).

So although I'm definately no expert I found that by being more relaxed and enjoying our walks, Max has improved 99.9%.

[Jan/Billy]

It's weird because this week Billy has not growled at one single dog , he's probably said hello to about 20 dogs this week and he was beautifully behaved every time, males and females. Weird 

Although today we met a tiny tiny dog. Think it was a minature daschund pup, Billy kept on starring at it as if to say "whats that!" it was funny