Scared I have bitten off more than I can chew

[stuffster]

Well, they say pride comes before a fall, and I was on here saying how well Alfie is settling in etc.

But now that he has been here a week, all the problems we were warned about are beginning to rear their ugly head, and Im scared I'm not going to be able to cope.

His biggest problem is other dogs in the park - the first few days we had him he was off-lead playing happily, but now he growls and barks at full volume the WHOLE time we are in the park, and if I let him off the lead he runs at all the other dogs with his teeth bared, snarling and snapping.

He also HATES the lollipop man (who adores dogs) and starts yelling and pulling towards him as soon as he sees him, which means the whole time I am waiting outside school for the kids to come out, Alfie is barking like a maniac. If lollipop man treis to approach with a treat, Alfie bares all his teeth and lunges for him.

The other problem time is in the evenings. Purdey and Alfie play together like puppies during the day but in the evening Alfie wont tolerate her walking within 5 feet of him if he is lying down, and growls and snaps at her.

I am so upset because I thought I would know what to do, and would just "give him boundaries" etc and it would be alright, and I have read 4 behaviour books ("Mine" "Culture Clash" etc) and none of them seem to have the answers Im looking for.

No matter what happens Im not giving up on this little fella, because he is a gorgeous dog the rest of the time and we all adore him, so if anyone has any ideas to deal with this sort of behaviour, Id be glad to hear it. Also if anyone can recommend a behaviourist in Suffolk, that would be good too!

[speedyjaney]

Dont be too disheartened  he has only been with you a week.

To prevent some of the undesirable behaviour he is showing I would not put him in the situatiuon that causes it. So I wouldn't take him to the school if he can't cope with the lollipop man...I wouldn't allow him to play with strange dogs in the park....

[Angels of Fur]

Sorry it hasnt gone to plan, or its gone backwards, its only been a week though so i wouldnt worry to much.
Ive never re-homed although i would love too eventually, i would only suggest to try and keep him out of the situations temporarily and then try again or maybe train him one on one ? Not too sure, but im sure things will get better!!

[Spangles]

Oh dear - what a shame, no advice really as I am no expert but just wanted to say I am thinking of you and hope you can sort it out.

I took on a rescue Jess when she was 10 months old and I had to learn how to handle "two dogs" as I had only ever had 1 dog before.  It was mainly a guarding high value objects problem.  But with some sound advice from here and a bit of common sense I sorted it out.

My two are now great friends now and I have never regretted taking on a second.

I hope you get it sorted, keep your chin up.

[Karma]

I sounds like he is overwhelmed with it all.
I agree that for the time being you need to avoid putting him in the position of feeling he needs to react.

Concentrate on having fun with him - doing the things he enjoys, and don't push him too far.

If that means he has to stay behind on the school run for a while, so be it.
Do lots of training in the house, so he has mental stimulation and builds a bond with you.

A behaviourist should help with advice for specific issues, so good luck in your search for one!!

Good luck - I'm sure you will be able to help him through this!

[Mundyboy]

It could be that he is afraid of the big world and his way of dealing with it is aggression.  Keep him close to you and reward any positive way he deals with his fear.  One day at a time, one obstacle over come before tackling the next.  Some folk feel that they should not repremand a rescue dog as it has so much pain in the recent past.  You must be firm but fair.  It is in both his and your best interests.    Lots of love but firm reminders of the rules and what you expect from him.  I have been told that you might not see the true colours of your rescue dog for at least 6 weeks.

No matter what happens Im not giving up on this little fella, because he is a gorgeous dog the rest of the time and we all adore him, so if anyone has any ideas to deal with this sort of behaviour, Id be glad to hear it.

That says it for me.  He is not going back and you will find a way for him to achieve acceptable behaviour.
(As I write my Jenni is lying on her back, her tail ticking up and down.  Her time for play.  This coming from a dog who, 7 weeks ago, sat behind the settee facing into the corner of the room for hours on end).  Good luck to you both. 

[Kimberley]

Give Alfie time, I collected Breeze on the 28th July this year, although a complete sweetheart on somethings, growling over food, toys and attention have been her problem, but a very strong NO at taking the food or toy away sends her into a bit of a spin. I think you need to find a way of defusing the situation.

[stuffster]

It could be that he is afraid of the big world and his way of dealing with it is aggression.  Keep him close to you and reward any positive way he deals with his fear.  One day at a time, one obstacle over come before tackling the next. 

I am sure you are right, Mundyboy, that it is fear that is causing this. When we walk down the road to school, all the teenagers going to the high school ignore him and he ignores them or even sniffs at them quite happily. He only growls at the sweet old ladies who stop to talk to him, and the lollipop man who for the first few days would try and stroke him as we crossed the road.

The trouble is, I dont know whether I should shout No at him for growling at people and dogs, or whether this will increase his fear. Just ordered another 3 behaviour books from the recommended reading list on COL! "Click to Calm" sounds like it could be just what I need, as apparently there is a lot about fear-based agression in it.

[Mundyboy]

Do not be afraid of calling out to folk "He is new out of rescue please ignore him for the time being"  Also turn him away from potential flash points.  Cross the road further up from the Lollipop man - dressed as he is is fearful for Alfie.  No sudden yelling, just a firm 'No' and move on.  It takes time.  You yell, he panics.  He will gain confidence and be able to deal with these things in time.  Jenni allows folk to talk to her now without taking flight but touching her is another thing.  She will let the ladies touch her but no way can a man get near to her.  Even this is coming though.  I ask men to speak to her but not to bend down over her and she is accepting this.  I think she sees me as a mother figure as she follows me all over the place!  I have seen other rescues who only relax in their crate, in fact once Jenni climbs into her bed she does not get out until the morning.  Perhaps she feels safe in her bed - with her plug-in baby light!!

[BabyB]

Although I don't class Katie as a 'rescue', we did take her on at the age of 18mths.  She came to us from the same breeder we got Henry from

She'd not been bred from and was nervous of the show ring, and had no one to play with as the other doglets had 'paired' off.  Their breeder is lovely and we knew she just lacked confidence. As we were thinking of getting a 'friend' for Henry who was 6mths old, their breeder asked us if would love her - which we do as she is my special 

When we took her on, she was very shy and quite nervous of new situations.  We've had to take baby steps with her, and within the first week she'd shyed away from a woman who bent down to pet them both and she backed out of her harness .  My heart was in my mouth as you can imagine.

We took her to 'puppy' training as an observer so she could get used to people and dogs in a safe environment.  She then went as a 'paying' learner and won the trainers 'most improved' rosette which still brings a tear to my eye when I think how much she'd gained in confidence.

What I'm trying to say is that 10 months on, she is a different doglet.  She still gets a little nervous when out in strange places, and is still not too keen on my mother in law , but she's getting there.

I love my baby, and with love, time and patience, your baby will soon realise that the big wide world is not as scary as he thinks it is - in the same way that Jenni (Mundayboy) has found out too.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

HUGE HUGS!

Try not to panic!!! Norms was similar once she'd got over the shock of finding herself in a new home she got in a complete huff/strop for about 4 months and would actually do the opposite of what I said at times whilst glaring at me. Eventually, it started to settle and at that point I went on a 5 day hol and when I got back, we were back to square one. I was in the dog house for leaving her after she'd started to trust me and it took another 4+ months to persuade her things were ok.

I agree with some of the other comments - try and take him out of the situations he's reacting to just now to take the pressure off him whilst he finds his feet. If you can find a behaviourist that has experience of rescues (and cockers!) that would also really help give you the confidence you need right now to get through this with him... I had very similar worries to you when I took Normy on and nearly lost my bottle a number of times (baring in mind she's incredibly strong and weighed 36 Kilo's when I first got her ). She was at times extremely aggressive on the lead towards other dogs and sometimes people. Initially we think it was fear then she started guarding me, the house, the car against anything and everything. I've had her a year and a half now and today on the walk, we had LOTS of situations where previously she'd have gone nuts but she now listens to me telling her to leave things.. the second I spot her brow wrinkling or the tell tail strutting in front of me. I stop dead and she's knows to walk at my side or behind me on a loose lead now - i.e. I'm the one dealing with the situation and she's not to take matters into her hands paws/teeth . To achieve this, I first had to tackle her horrific pulling on the lead, which also took months , but I do now have a big strong dog that walks nicely on a slack lead on a normal rolled leather collar (rather than the awful 'head gear' she came to me in that was adding to her aggression problems).

Another trick that worked with her was that I had a trainer standing near me whilst other dogs walked past us or near us. The second she kicked off I had to pass the lead to the trainer and walk away from her whilst the trainer ignored her and held her where she was so she couldn't get back to me - the association being that if she started guarding me she lost me..

Now I don't know if Alfie's behaviour is for similar reasons but at the moment he will be going through a lot of early days after rehoming issues. A good behaviorist will be able to tell you the best way to react when he does these things - and the best way to proactively manage situations before he kicks off. But it can be a bit tricky finding a 'good' one so do lots of phone calls and chatting to them before you take them on.

All I can say by way of encouragement is that a year and half on.. after a lot of frustration and set backs (aside her aggression issues her hunt drive also meant that I have had months of loosing her EVERY walk for up to 40 mins.. another 'issue' we've mostly overcome  ), I now have a really really wonderful dog. She will at times still catch me out, but on the whole now really wants to please me. She now knows the sort of behaviour that does please me and what I expect of her and boy... does it feel good! The sense of achievement you'll get from helping a dog like Alfie and the bond you'll develop in some ways, will really outweigh what you can achieve with a pup from scratch.

Hope you're ok, I really know what you're going through.. keep posting and try and take one day at a time with him just now..

Hannah xxxx

[Tasha]

Well done you for coming out and saying your not sure you can cope, thats the first hurdle.  They usually say that you don't really know what you have in a rescue till its been in the home six weeks by which time it knows which buttons to push.

I'd definitely get an assessment done with a behaviourist and have a training plan put into place you can both follow and as has already been said take it one day at a time.

Good luck.

[PennyB]

Wouldn't it be better though to speak to the rescue 1st as they will have more insight into this dog and they have the experience to help, and no matter how busy they are its often better to speak to them 1st if they had any problems.

[Sarah.H]

Although Millie was nowhere near as bad as Alfie sounds I did have some similar problems with her. Like Alfie she too was ok with people who ignored her but could be aggressive to people who wanted to pet her. The problem is she is a bit scared by the intense eye contact and leaning over and that is her way to tell them! I got my friends in work to help by coming near but ignoring her while I fed her, and then them giving her a treat while not making eye contact or leaning over, eventually they would make a fuss of her after giving her a treat. I then started doing this with different people I would meet throughout the day. Basically ignore the bad bits and reward the good  . Its been just over a year and she is so much better and more confident with strangers.

[stuffster]

Thanks for loads of support and some really great advice.

Penny, I have emailed Fionna with full details of what is going on - my only hesitation in doing that in the first place was that I know what huge amounts of work these people have as it is - I didnt want to add to her burden by making her worry about how Alfie is doing.

I have spoken to two different people here about Alfie - the trainer at the puppy class I take Purdey to, and a lady nearby who specialises in dealing with rescue dogs with "issues"! Both are giving me some really good advice, and Im taking him for a full assesment with the rescue lady on Monday. She sounded really lovely and understood exactly what I was describing. As well as doing one-on-one sessions, she also runs group training sessions for rescue dogs, and gentle agility classes for them (so they have something else to think about other than the other dogs etc)

In the meantime, Im taking some advice from here, of keeping him out of the situations that were causing him stress, like the busy dog park, and instead taking him to the woods where he and Purdey ran off lead for over an hour today, and he met several dogs which didnt worry him at all. He even let some old ladies stroke him and tickle his ears, so maybe he is more relaxed in the woods than on the street. (Or maybe the key is that IM more relaxed!!!)

Without causing a huge debate, what are your opinions on muzzles, guys? Alfie is much happier off-lead than he is on the lead, but it is scary when there are other dogs around as occasionally he will fly at them with teeth showing. I was wondering about buying a muzzle so that at least he can be off-lead without me worrying that he will hurt a dog. (I'm 99% sure that the teeth are bared for show - he has very good bite inhibition when he is playing with Purdey) It might also give other dog owners more warning to keep their dogs back from him. I had him on lead a few days ago and a dopey woman WOULDNT call her little Jack Russell away, even tho I asked her to, and it was running in and out of Alfie's legs despite the fact he was growling like mad at it. In the end he snapped his teeth at it and she huffed at me as if it was my fault and whipped her dog away.    It was only adding to poor Alfie's stress.

Anyway, I feel like we are making some headway, and Im looking forward to meeting the trainer on Monday who will hopefully give us some really good tips to make sure that we are doing everything possible to help Alfie feel more confident. I know it is really early days and that a lot will change in the next 3-6 months etc, but my main concern is to make sure I am handling it in the best possible way rather than possibly adding to his problems if I handle it wrong!