Would You Have Another Cocker Spaniel?

[Emilyoliver]

It appears that our beloved breed is joining so many others on the 'inherently unhealthy' list.

That's quite a generalisation to make Maybe we have been lucky but in nearly 30 years of owning Cockers, most of ours have lived to over 14 years old (several have been 15, one 16) and our vet sees us very rarely. We also have friends in other breeds (including working strain dogs), relatives that have cross-breeds etc and some are largely healthy and some seem to be always at the vet for one thing or another. Same goes for humans - some have multiple health issues whereas some sail through life problem free. That's not to say there are things that do need to change - I think all breeders need to move away from close linebreeding (show and working) as I've looked at pedigrees of dogs with various health issues (where no test is available) and many have high COIs (much higher than the breed average). I also think environmental factors (pollution, chemicals, diet, etc) do have a negative impact on health (animals and humans) and we are only just learning how important these factors are.

Yes, it may be a generalisation, but so is an assumption that many of the issues are just bad luck. I personally can't discount a potential inheritance/ hereditary component to my my own cocker's health issues (especially when his dam had three discs blow and another relative developed an immune condition).  When my vet then tells me that he often sees cockers with pancreatitis, there is research being conducted specifically on this in cockers, and I then read that cardiomyopathy is another common condition in the breed I personally begin to question whether it's all bad luck or environmental conditions. I also realise the challenges of gathering data and conducting meaningful research into genetic conditions, however this is likely to be almost impossible if breeders and owners are unwilling to acknowledge there may be an issue. I am in no way bashing responsible breeders (or anyone else). I just personally find this subject very frustrating and worrying. But that is just a personal perspective.

[Poppsie]

Robbie  I lost two of my beautiful cockers to kidney failure and they were both 13 and  a half yrs old  I lost Pebbles as you know to ear problems    I think that over the years that there has been a lot of interbreeding by people who haven't got a clue what they are doing  I may be wrong but since I have joined this great forum I have heard about so many dogs having problems some very young, that you didn't hear about years ago  Only you can decided what to do about getting another furbaby Robbie, I must admit when I got Phoebe and Mia I felt like I was betraying my other two girls  but now I know that they sent them to me to mend my broken heart as the pair of them are so much like poppy and pebbles in their ways  In time you will know what to do and when to start looking good luck in what ever you do  x x x

[Pearly]

At the risk of seeming provocative is it really that cockers appear to be prone to health issues or more that we have an expectation our pets will live to a huge age when the average is in fact lower?  The other consideration which Poppsie has touched on is that a few years back we just wouldn't be aware of the level of health issues in any breed, including the felines I mentioned before.

Forums like this are an invaluable source of information and support but of course, they do run the risk of highlighting health problems as let's face it - that is a main reason for being on here?

[Jane S]

Yes, it may be a generalisation, but so is an assumption that many of the issues are just bad luck. I personally can't discount a potential inheritance/ hereditary component to my my own cocker's health issues (especially when his dam had three discs blow and another relative developed an immune condition).  When my vet then tells me that he often sees cockers with pancreatitis, there is research being conducted specifically on this in cockers, and I then read that cardiomyopathy is another common condition in the breed I personally begin to question whether it's all bad luck or environmental conditions. I also realise the challenges of gathering data and conducting meaningful research into genetic conditions, however this is likely to be almost impossible if breeders and owners are unwilling to acknowledge there may be an issue. I am in no way bashing responsible breeders (or anyone else). I just personally find this subject very frustrating and worrying. But that is just a personal perspective.

I did not make an assumption that all the issues you mentioned were down to bad luck nor am I unwilling to acknowledge problems where they are proven to exist - I disagreed with your generalisation that the breed as a whole is inherently unhealthly. Yes we have conditions with a possible hereditary component where no tests are currently available (but may be in the future) but that does not make the Cocker an unhealthy breed overall - it just means more work to do to overcome these problems (just as FN was a big problem in the 80s and is now virtually unheard of due to hard work, research and the development of a DNA test). We also need to work harder at persuading breeders to move away from "traditional" breeding practices (close linebreeding) - the KC has made a start with the Mate Select system (imperfect as it is) and potential puppy buyers need to be educated to also use this tool and question breeders when a litter has a high COI.

Putting things in perspective, this breed is a numerically huge one with thousands and thousands bred each year (not just those registered) - it is inevitable that numerically large breeds are over-represented at any vet surgery even if the number of those affected with serious health conditions are only a smallish percentage of the breed overall -of course that does not make it better for the owners of affected dogs but nor does it mean the whole breed is going to hell in a handcart.

[Robbie34]

I can't accept that I have just been unlucky: seventy-five per cent of my Cockers have had serious health problems.  I don't know what the underlying causes are.  I also had a Beagle, before I got my first Cocker, and he lived to the ripe old age of twelve, which is about average for Beagles, and he had no health problems at all. 

When I was a youngster we had two crossbreeds.  Toby was killed in a road accident when I was fifteen and I carried him home, in tears, waiting fore the vet who put him to sleep.  I was given my next puppy by one of my customers on my paper round, unbeknown to my Mum, but she accepted him.  Timmy lived to a ripe old age without any problems whatsoever.  I appreciate that pedigree dogs have far more health problems than crossbreeds, but Cockers seem to have more than their fair share.

I won't be getting another puppy until next year as I will be going into hospital on 19th October and want to be fully fit to look after him.  I'll probably get another Cocker, but I'll have to do a lot of research into lines, and only hope I can find a breeder who has puppies whose parents are in no way related.

[Homebird]

I am hoping for a new cocker puppy soon and have found using the tools on the Kennel Club mate select section invaluable.  They showed how high the inbreeding was for Jessie - over 25% - and enabled me to steer clear of one or two litters which had similar scores.  When you contact the breeder if you get the official names of the sire and the dam then you can check inbreeding ratio and health tests.

It is thanks to this forum and Jane, and the breed club that I found out how to do this.

[Robbie34]

I am hoping for a new cocker puppy soon and have found using the tools on the Kennel Club mate select section invaluable.  They showed how high the inbreeding was for Jessie - over 25% - and enabled me to steer clear of one or two litters which had similar scores.  When you contact the breeder if you get the official names of the sire and the dam then you can check inbreeding ratio and health tests.

It is thanks to this forum and Jane, and the breed club that I found out how to do this.

That's interesting and very useful. 

[Emilyoliver]

Yes, it may be a generalisation, but so is an assumption that many of the issues are just bad luck. I personally can't discount a potential inheritance/ hereditary component to my my own cocker's health issues (especially when his dam had three discs blow and another relative developed an immune condition).  When my vet then tells me that he often sees cockers with pancreatitis, there is research being conducted specifically on this in cockers, and I then read that cardiomyopathy is another common condition in the breed I personally begin to question whether it's all bad luck or environmental conditions. I also realise the challenges of gathering data and conducting meaningful research into genetic conditions, however this is likely to be almost impossible if breeders and owners are unwilling to acknowledge there may be an issue. I am in no way bashing responsible breeders (or anyone else). I just personally find this subject very frustrating and worrying. But that is just a personal perspective.

I did not make an assumption that all the issues you mentioned were down to bad luck nor am I unwilling to acknowledge problems where they are proven to exist - I disagreed with your generalisation that the breed as a whole is inherently unhealthly. Yes we have conditions with a possible hereditary component where no tests are currently available (but may be in the future) but that does not make the Cocker an unhealthy breed overall - it just means more work to do to overcome these problems (just as FN was a big problem in the 80s and is now virtually unheard of due to hard work, research and the development of a DNA test). We also need to work harder at persuading breeders to move away from "traditional" breeding practices (close linebreeding) - the KC has made a start with the Mate Select system (imperfect as it is) and potential puppy buyers need to be educated to also use this tool and question breeders when a litter has a high COI.

Putting things in perspective, this breed is a numerically huge one with thousands and thousands bred each

year (not just those registered) - it is inevitable that numerically large breeds are over-represented at any vet surgery even if the number of those affected with serious health conditions are only a smallish percentage of the breed overall -of course that does not make it better for the owners of affected dogs but nor does it mean the whole breed is going to hell in a handcart.

Apologies Jane if I caused offence. My comment about bad luck wasn't aimed at you, just that some people believe issues may be down to this. I also didn't suggest the whole breed was 'going to he'll in a handcart'. Merely that it appears to me (only me) from what I have seen personally, experienced and read that they seem to be more prone to various conditions than in the past. I reiterate, this is my personal opinion and some of this is coloured by watching my soul dog suffer. It is truly heartbreaking and I would hate to have to repeat this again. (and yes, I realise it could happen with practically any other dog).

[LurcherGirl]

My two cockers incur a lot less vet bills than my lurcher and saluki.  Jesse (American cocker) has autoimmune thyroiditis and immune related problems because of that. But being on a certain diet and thyroid medication (which is cheap) he is fine and rarely needs the vet. Skye (English cocker) has no health issues at all... we thought she might be hypothyroid due to some aggression issues, but it turns out that the thyroid medication makes virtually no difference to her behaviour issues, so she is fine (and will come off meds this week) and has no health issues at all.

So based on my limited experience of two, I would have them again. But then again, even with the huge vet bills that my two sighthounds accumulated over the years, I could not be without at least one saluki either, so their higher risk of accidents is just part of the parcel with them.       

[Jane S]

Apologies Jane if I caused offence. My comment about bad luck wasn't aimed at you, just that some people believe issues may be down to this. I also didn't suggest the whole breed was 'going to he'll in a handcart'. Merely that it appears to me (only me) from what I have seen personally, experienced and read that they seem to be more prone to various conditions than in the past. I reiterate, this is my personal opinion and some of this is coloured by watching my soul dog suffer. It is truly heartbreaking and I would hate to have to repeat this again. (and yes, I realise it could happen with practically any other dog).

No offence caused Just wanted to put things in perspective really as you seemed to be painting such a black picture & I do understand that this stems from your own sad experience.

I think there have always been various problems to tackle in this and any other breed you care to mention - in the 80s when we started in the breed, auto immune conditions, pancreatitis etc were pretty much unheard of but other conditions like PRA & FN were worried about so attention was directed on those conditions leading to the tests we have now. It's possible that breeding away from known conditions has led to other conditions becoming more prevalent so now we have to focus attention on those conditions as well as using other tools like Mate Select etc to breed more sensibly. I don't think it is ever possible to guarantee 100% freedom from hereditary health conditions in any dog (or any human for that matter) - all we can do is use today's knowledge to try and ensure health problems are kept to a minimum.

[Poppypuppy09]

Set aside all the health issue debate....once you have known, lived  and loved  a cocker I can't see how you could be without....but thats just me 

[Helly D]

I'd never heard of Mate Select either so that is very interesting. Is this a new thing and does it cover every breed?

[Homebird]

When you go to the kennel club site you enter the breed first and then the kennel name of the sire or dam - both for a possible litter result or individually for health tests or inbreeding for an individual dog.  It took me a while to find it on the site - had to put kennel club mate select in google and go from there.

As you have to put the breed in first I guess it works for all but I haven't tried it for any others.

[Jane S]

I'd never heard of Mate Select either so that is very interesting. Is this a new thing and does it cover every breed?

Yes every breed that is recognised by the KC. It's not perfect but good to use as a rough guide. Where it falls down is in relation to imported dogs so if you have a pedigree which contains imports (quite a few Cocker pedigrees do these days), the Mate Select calculation isn't totally accurate because they only use 3 generations for imports (3 generations are not sufficient to calculate COIs properly)

Link for Cockers: http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/kinship/Default.aspx?breed=2052

[supergirl]

After I lost my first cocker spaniel to FN just before her first birthday I decided that for the my next dog health had to be a priority.  While I was looking I got the impression from many breeders that breed standard was a priority followed by health & temperament.  I love cockers spaniels but since I'm not particularly interested in showing, the dogs health & temperament is far more important to me, and that influenced my choice of breeder.  The two puppies that I got aren't KC registered but they are from health tested parents (both who are KC registered), they do have a pedigree which includes a few well known FTCH cockers, and I think Misha has one ShC in her lines.  Neither have ever been ill or lame (other than one incidence of cystitus for Misha now 5),  neither have ever had any ear problems or anal gland problems (which seem to be common cocker problems). 

To look at they are show cockers (though I do think Roly is quite a good example, but I'm no expert), and I'm quite glad that they have a "mix" in their pedigrees as I believe that it has contributed greatly to both their health & temperament. 

Just out of interest I input the details of their dams & sire into the Mate Select and they both have a low COI - Misha is 1% and Roly 3%

So yes I would get another show cocker and I'd probably go back to the same breeder too.  However that's a long time away now and I'm more than likely going to go for a working cocker next time around