CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Nic on January 22, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
-
Hello
I am brand new to the forum so apologies if there is already a link about this. Also new to puppy owning! We are hoping our working cocker spaniel will be born in about two weeks. The owner is planning to dock the tails of all the puppies unless we ask for our pup undocked. Our pup will be a pet, not a working dog, although we expect to take it on lots of country walks once it is older. There seems to be conflicting advice about whether or not tails should (or can) be docked. My preference (I think) is not to dock, but I have been warned that working cockers can really injure their tails if they aren't docked and obviously I don't want that. Does anyone have any advice? Thank you!
-
Hi Nic and welcome. Think the 'working cocker' hurting their tails, on the whole relates to those cockers who are more actively involved in working sport (going on shoots, maybe & field trials etc) There are quite a few members on COL who do this activity so hopefully one will come along and explain it properly.
If you look further down the list of thread subjects you will find one named Activities, then Working, maybe have a look there too.
-
As I understand it, tails can only be legally docked if the dog is to be a working gundog. If your pup is going to be a pet only, there is no reason to dock. ;)
Coco was docked as a baby (about 3 days old) before I saw her and that was before the law was changed to ban docking for purely cosmetic reasons, so it was pretty much the norm to dock all cocker pups. If I had had a choice back then (2005) I would have kept her tail - I have met a lot of cockers and never come across one that had a damaged tail. I know it can be an issue when out working ie flushing birds out and running into brambles, barbed wire etc with a wildly wagging tail can lead to it getting injured so, for a true working dog, it makes sense ;)
-
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,
Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.
I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask :D
My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.
Welcome to COL.
Sharon.
-
Hi,
The docking legislation states that dogs going to working homes may be docked. However there is some leeway as a breeder of working dogs cannot guarantee that every single puppy will end up in a working home. So the stipulation is that either a gamekeeper must verify that the dam is actually worked, or the breeder must have a shotgun license. Most trialling bred dogs have longer docks which don’t affect their ability to communicate. But there is some variation within working cockers and there isn’t a ‘standard’ docking length. It’s personal preference.
As for damage, my older worker who works, damaged his tail when he was younger - not while out working! But he has a very long dock... I do know of a good few cases of undocked pet workers damaging their tails just out hunting in undergrowth or bashing them around the house. Hunting is a natural behaviour whether they’re trained specifically for working or not. What I have noticed is that many workers have very spindly tails particularly at the end which make them a bit more prone to damage. If your breeder has agreed to not dock your puppy and you prefer a full tail - then go with that. But just bear in mind that you won’t be able to change your mind about the pup you’ve chosen a few weeks later as they’re docked at under 3 days and the breeder would have difficulty selling an undocked puppy to a working home.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
-
My first two cocker boys were docked before we got them, as that was the done thing at that point. This was not something we chose. Our current girl has her full tail, and I am so pleased, it is just lovely. Given the choice today, I would definitely opt for an undocked dog. Daisy tells me so much using her tail, she has a couple of different wags :005: The 'windmill' is when she is up for a bit f nonsense, it always makes me chuckle.
-
Thank you so much for these replies. I am so excited about our new dog and it is wonderful to hear people talking about their dogs so lovingly. I can see I will be on here for lots more advice. Thank you again.
-
I think it's important to remember that from a medical perspective tail docking is actually an amputation of a healthy part of the body. So naturally it should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. The risk for tail injury would have to be extremely high to justify an amputation as a profylactic solution imo, so a pet should definitely never be docked. Keep the tail intact and enjoy the new dog is my advise :021: Good question to bring up btw!
-
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,
Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.
I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask :D
My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.
Welcome to COL.
Sharon.
Agree totally, the position and movement of the tail tells both us and more importantly other dogs, what the dog is feeling and a lack of it could be a handicap when it comes to communication, which in turn can result in canine „misunderstandings“ ;) If you‘re dog isn‘t going to be working, then I would definately leave it undocked, a waggy tail is one of the greatest pleasures of cockership!! :005:
-
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,
Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.
I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask :D
My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.
Welcome to COL.
Sharon.
Agree totally, the position and movement of the tail tells both us and more importantly other dogs, what the dog is feeling and a lack of it could be a handicap when it comes to communication, which in turn can result in canine „misunderstandings“ ;) If you‘re dog isn‘t going to be working, then I would definately leave it undocked, a waggy tail is one of the greatest pleasures of cockership!! :005:
As I mentioned - many working dogs are 3/4 docked - meaning only the tip is removed (1/4). Their ability to communicate/ express themselves is not compromised in any way. They’re not docked like show dogs used to be with just a stump left. While I understand most people are opposed to docking (and that’s fine), suggesting that it affects communication negatively is just not true. Both of my dog’s have long docks. Only the skinny tips have been removed. Most people think that my older dog hasn’t been docked at all.
-
As I mentioned - many working dogs are 3/4 docked - meaning only the tip is removed (1/4). Their ability to communicate/ express themselves is not compromised in any way. They’re not docked like show dogs used to be with just a stump left. While I understand most people are opposed to docking (and that’s fine), suggesting that it affects communication negatively is just not true. Both of my dog’s have long docks. Only the skinny tips have been removed. Most people think that my older dog hasn’t been docked at all.
I have to agree with this. Both my girls were docked 11 years ago and i think it was called a half dock so still quite long. . They came from a working/ competing trails background and were therefore docked very early as the breeder wouldn't have known the type of home the litter were going to. Whilst most breeders of actual working cockers do prefer them to go to a working home, many will accept an active home. I have never worked my dogs but their extremely biddable nature has made them a delight to live with over the years. If I were to have another dog, I would prefer it to come from a similar background with a docked tail.
My dogs have never had a problem communicating with other dogs.
I always did think it odd that the show type had their tails docked ridiculously short yet the dogs that actually worked had a much longer dock. :huh:
I have to say that I actually prefer the look of a neat long dock to the long feathery tail that we see nowadays, but that is just my personal opinion.
-
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,
Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.
I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask :D
My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.
Welcome to COL.
Sharon.
Agree totally, the position and movement of the tail tells both us and more importantly other dogs, what the dog is feeling and a lack of it could be a handicap when it comes to communication, which in turn can result in canine „misunderstandings“ ;) If you‘re dog isn‘t going to be working, then I would definately leave it undocked, a waggy tail is one of the greatest pleasures of cockership!! :005:
As I mentioned - many working dogs are 3/4 docked - meaning only the tip is removed (1/4). Their ability to communicate/ express themselves is not compromised in any way. They’re not docked like show dogs used to be with just a stump left. While I understand most people are opposed to docking (and that’s fine), suggesting that it affects communication negatively is just not true. Both of my dog’s have long docks. Only the skinny tips have been removed. Most people think that my older dog hasn’t been docked at all.
Sorry Emily, I obviously hadn‘t read your post through properly, I was really referring to the dogs with only a tiny stump left which leaves them with limited opportunity of expression via tail movement and according to a report I read here (Germany) recently, can indeed have an effect on interaction between different breeds. Most people, whether dog savvy or not will recognize for example, that a dog with a tail between his legs is frightened, if he only has a stub he‘s at a disadvantage. I admit to having no idea at all about the current regulations or practices on docking in GB, I was under the (false) impression that docking meant complete amputation. Apologies for any misunderstanding! ;)
-
That’s ok Bizzylizzy. Didn’t mean to offend either ;) I have a 14yo show type with a much shorter dock. Grew up with ditties that just had a tiny stump and it definitely affected their ability to communicate. Just didn’t want people to have the impression that working dogs had the same type of drastic dock.
-
Hi- I searched for a pup who was undocked. I absolutely love bailey’s full tail. A cocker’s wag and thump thump on the floor is one of their best features and whilst I absolutely understand the need for a hedge jumping working dog I don’t think it necessary and would never do it for a pet. X
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
My first cocker (1970's) was docked, as all cockers were then, and it didn't diminish his joie de vivre. Sophie (2000) was undocked, with something of a corkscrew because, I think, one of her littermates had chewed it! Even so she carried it with great pride. When she was very ill with meningitis her tail was her main way to communicate.
When we got Annie from Many Tears I wasn't sure if she hadn't been docked. It turned out that her tail was so tightly folded under her that it was nearly invisible. It was wonderful when it emerged and the flag started to fly.
I understand and support docking dogs who are going to work in the field, because of the seriousness of the injuries they can sustain, even if they are rare. For a pet however, I wouldn't contemplate docking.
There is something very reassuring about the exchange that goes:
'How you doing Annie?'
'Thump, thump, thump...'
-
sodpot2000 You are totally spot on with the 'thump thump thump' reply with the tail! Daisy was lying stretched on the couch last night, snoring gently. I made a comment to OH about her, and instantly the tail gave a lazy thump, without her moving or opening her eyes :005: I love her tail, so glad she wasn't docked when we got her.
-
Hi perhaps ask for your dog to keep its tail. I had a show cocker but it was docked already. My dog spent its life with other animals fields horses etc basically out doing what a dog could do in long grass weeds covered in seeds always! Traditionally they were docked but now I think it’s just a tradition? I have come to the conclusion the body part on my show spaniel that hoovered seeds up was its ears but luckily these are left on. I always asked for his whiskers to be left on for “sensing” the same with my horse. So when I see spaniels more with tails on nowadays they all seem pretty fine tails wagging away rather than my dogs stubby missing non tail. Ask for it to be left on.
-
Milo was docked, but my rescue cocker had a tail, and Dylan has his tail. I love his feathery flag :luv:.
But I wish his dew claws had been removed, like my previous spaniels. They are quite small and curvy, he absolutely hates them being touched and claw trimming is a nightmare. Some of my previous dogs have broken dew claws, it is so painful for them. I'd have all dew claws removed at birth.
Lesley and Dylan
-
Milo was docked, but my rescue cocker had a tail, and Dylan has his tail. I love his feathery flag :luv:.
But I wish his dew claws had been removed, like my previous spaniels. They are quite small and curvy, he absolutely hates them being touched and claw trimming is a nightmare. Some of my previous dogs have broken dew claws, it is so painful for them. I'd have all dew claws removed at birth.
Lesley and Dylan
That’s interesting. My docked workers both have their dew claws... vets don’t like to take them off, and research seems to show they’re used by dogs for grip and to aid turning. I read one report that said dogs without dew claws battled to get purchase on banks when getting out of ponds/rivers. Neither of mine have hurt theirs so far. But the one with a very long dock has injured his tail.
-
Bea had her Dew claws removed and I've also read that they do have some use.
I remember my Nan's Lab had them and didn't like them touched.
-
Thank you so much for all these replies. I love this forum so much I can see I am going to be on it all the time. I really appreciate the respect everyone has for each other - and can tell how much you all love your dogs! It has been wonderful hearing all your experiences.
Our pup has been born - she is two weeks old today!!! - and we asked for her tail not to be docked as she will be a pet. The other pups are all docked so we had to choose her from photos on day 1 and we are so happy with her! Also, we can spot her in photos because of her long tail!
-
Yay! She has arrived safely, and you have made your first choice for her. Exciting times ahead :luv:
-
Fantastic news, you are on your way to lots of fun :005:
I chose Bea at 2 weeks old, she was black and white, one eye had just opened and she didn't know she had legs yet, best decision I ever made :luv:
Sharon
-
Do please keep us updated! Looking forward to seeing photos at some point..... :luv:
-
My first cocker (1970's) was docked, as all cockers were then, and it didn't diminish his joie de vivre.
Wilf & Ruby were docked but it meant they had more of a wiggle bum, which I loved and you always knew when they were happy which was often
-
Awww puppy to join the COL family :luv:
I chose Maximus at 2 weeks. There were 10 puppies to choose from and it was a tough choice.
I narrowed it down to 4 puppies with some difficulty. Eventually narrowing it down further to 2 boy orange roan pups.
They were both very white at the time without much of their roan speckles or splodges showing at all.
I eventually picked Maximus as he was the slightly chunkier of the 2. It took me ages to decide but I have never regretted it for a moment. I was lucky enough to be able to visit every weekend until we collected him at 8 weeks old, even though it was 140 mile round trip.
I felt we already had a bond before we collected him and he has been brilliant.
So happy you have joined COL it is a great source of information on all things cocker!
Hope the weeks go fast for you :luv:
-
Just got new full tail pup. 1st with tail so far it wags and don't know what all tradition is with docking? It seems a very nice tail indeed. Always wished our other two spaniels tails were left on but already done. I was told it's because they have curly tails? Plus gun dog etc.
-
Just got new full tail pup. 1st with tail so far it wags and don't know what all tradition is with docking? It seems a very nice tail indeed. Always wished our other two spaniels tails were left on but already done. I was told it's because they have curly tails? Plus gun dog etc.
The tradition came from cockers originally being working gundogs, so their tails were docked to prevent injury. As representatives of the breed, the show specimens had theirs done as well - until it was made illegal to dock non-working dogs.
They shouldn't have curly tails - that would be a fault. However many of the working ones have very spindly ends to their tails so i can imagine these would be most prone to injury.
-
I'd never have an undocked working cocker. As for tail injuries only happening to actual working dogs, well just go on to any Facebook group and see the amount of pet working cockers that are now having "adult amputations"
As for dew claws I have one with front dew claws and one without. TBH I'd prefer them to have them as they really do use them (although Jago has no problem scaling anything including river banks without them)