Author Topic: Tail docking  (Read 8354 times)

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Offline Nic

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Tail docking
« on: January 22, 2019, 03:49:12 PM »
Hello
I am brand new to the forum so apologies if there is already a link about this.  Also new to puppy owning!  We are hoping our working cocker spaniel will be born in about two weeks.  The owner is planning to dock the tails of all the puppies unless we ask for our pup undocked.  Our pup will be a pet, not a working dog, although we expect to take it on lots of country walks once it is older.  There seems to be conflicting advice about whether or not tails should (or can) be docked.  My preference (I think) is not to dock, but I have been warned that working cockers can really injure their tails if they aren't docked and obviously I don't want that.  Does anyone have any advice?  Thank you!

Offline Mudmagnets

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 04:02:46 PM »
Hi Nic and welcome. Think the 'working cocker' hurting their tails, on the whole relates to those cockers who are more actively involved in working sport (going on shoots, maybe & field trials  etc) There are quite a few members on COL who do this activity so hopefully one will come along and explain it properly.

If you look further down the list of thread subjects you will find one named Activities, then Working, maybe have a look there too.
Remembering Smudge 23/11/2006 - 3/8/2013, and Branston 30/8/14 - 28/10/22 both now at the Bridge.

Offline Joules

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2019, 06:49:07 PM »
As I understand it, tails can only be legally docked if the dog is to be a working gundog. If your pup is going to be a pet only, there is no reason to dock.  ;)

Coco was docked as a baby (about 3 days old) before I saw her and that was before the law was changed to ban docking for purely cosmetic reasons, so it was pretty much the norm to dock all cocker pups. If I had had a choice back then (2005) I would have kept her tail - I have met a lot of cockers and never come across one that had a damaged tail.  I know it can be an issue when out working ie flushing birds out and running into brambles, barbed wire etc with a wildly wagging tail can lead to it getting injured so, for a true working dog, it makes sense  ;)
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Offline its.sme

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 07:17:52 PM »
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,

Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.

I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask  :D

My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.

Welcome to COL.
Sharon.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 07:53:31 PM »
Hi,
The docking legislation states that dogs going to working homes may be docked. However there is some leeway as a breeder of working dogs cannot guarantee that every single puppy will end up in a working home. So the stipulation is that either a gamekeeper must verify that the dam is actually worked, or the breeder must have a shotgun license. Most trialling bred dogs have longer docks which don’t affect their ability to communicate. But there is some variation within working cockers and there isn’t a ‘standard’ docking length. It’s personal preference.

As for damage, my older worker who works, damaged his tail when he was younger - not while out working!  But he has a very long dock...  I do know of a good few cases of undocked pet workers damaging their tails just out hunting in undergrowth or bashing them around the house. Hunting is a natural behaviour whether they’re trained specifically for working or not. What I have noticed is that many workers have very spindly tails particularly at the end which make them a bit more prone to damage. If your breeder has agreed to not dock your puppy and you prefer a full tail - then go with that. But just bear in mind that you won’t be able to change your mind about the pup you’ve chosen a few weeks later  as they’re docked at under 3 days and the breeder would have difficulty selling an undocked puppy to a working home.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline ejp

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2019, 09:13:12 PM »
My first two cocker boys were docked before we got them, as that was the done thing at that point.  This was not something we chose.  Our current girl has her full tail, and I am so pleased, it is just lovely.  Given the choice today, I would definitely opt for an undocked dog.  Daisy tells me so much using her tail, she has a couple of different wags  :005: The 'windmill' is when she is up for a bit f nonsense, it always makes me chuckle.   

Offline Nic

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 02:35:11 PM »
Thank you so much for these replies.  I am so excited about our new dog and it is wonderful to hear people talking about their dogs so lovingly.  I can see I will be on here for lots more advice.  Thank you again.

Offline Mari

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 11:59:08 AM »
I think it's important to remember that from a medical perspective tail docking is actually an amputation of a healthy part of the body. So naturally it should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. The risk for tail injury would have to be extremely high to justify an amputation as a profylactic solution imo, so a pet should definitely never be docked. Keep the tail intact and enjoy the new dog is my advise  :021: Good question to bring up btw!

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,

Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.

I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask  :D

My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.

Welcome to COL.
Sharon.

Agree totally, the position and movement of the tail tells both us and more importantly other dogs, what the dog is feeling and a lack of it could be a handicap when it comes to communication, which in turn can result in canine „misunderstandings“ ;) If you‘re dog isn‘t going to be working, then I would definately leave it undocked, a waggy  tail is one of the greatest pleasures of cockership!!  :005:

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 03:26:14 PM »
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,

Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.

I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask  :D

My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.

Welcome to COL.
Sharon.

Agree totally, the position and movement of the tail tells both us and more importantly other dogs, what the dog is feeling and a lack of it could be a handicap when it comes to communication, which in turn can result in canine „misunderstandings“ ;) If you‘re dog isn‘t going to be working, then I would definately leave it undocked, a waggy  tail is one of the greatest pleasures of cockership!!  :005:
As I mentioned - many working dogs are 3/4 docked - meaning only the tip is removed (1/4). Their ability to communicate/ express themselves is not compromised in any way. They’re not docked like show dogs used to be with just a stump left. While I understand most people are opposed to docking (and that’s fine), suggesting that it affects communication negatively is just not true. Both of my dog’s have long docks. Only the skinny tips have been removed. Most people think that my older dog hasn’t been docked at all.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline vixen

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 05:09:02 PM »

As I mentioned - many working dogs are 3/4 docked - meaning only the tip is removed (1/4). Their ability to communicate/ express themselves is not compromised in any way. They’re not docked like show dogs used to be with just a stump left. While I understand most people are opposed to docking (and that’s fine), suggesting that it affects communication negatively is just not true. Both of my dog’s have long docks. Only the skinny tips have been removed. Most people think that my older dog hasn’t been docked at all.

I have to agree with this.  Both my girls were docked 11 years ago and i think it was called a half dock so still quite long. .  They came from a working/ competing trails background and were therefore docked very early as the breeder wouldn't have known the type of home the litter were going to.  Whilst most breeders of actual working cockers do prefer them to go to a working home, many will accept an active home.  I have never worked my dogs but their extremely biddable nature has made them a delight to live with over the years.   If I were to have another dog, I would prefer it to come from a similar background with a docked tail. 
My dogs have never had a problem communicating with other dogs.
I always did think it odd that the show type had their tails docked ridiculously short yet the dogs that actually worked had a much longer dock.  :huh:
I have to say that I actually prefer the look of a neat long dock to the long feathery tail that we see nowadays, but that is just my personal opinion. 
Max (GSP)  always in my heart

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 05:49:30 PM »
I have a show so never had to think about this one but my thoughts are,

Just looking at Bea when she is out and about , I have an insight into what is going on between her ears :D by how she is carrying her tail, I know it's also a important part of dogs communication to each other.

I'm sure I read a study somewhere that the amount of un docked working dogs damaging their tails is minimal, but I'm also aware that actual experience can be more useful so this is the perfect place to ask  :D

My Nan had a docked springer and it wasn't always easy to read her.

Welcome to COL.
Sharon.

Agree totally, the position and movement of the tail tells both us and more importantly other dogs, what the dog is feeling and a lack of it could be a handicap when it comes to communication, which in turn can result in canine „misunderstandings“ ;) If you‘re dog isn‘t going to be working, then I would definately leave it undocked, a waggy  tail is one of the greatest pleasures of cockership!!  :005:
As I mentioned - many working dogs are 3/4 docked - meaning only the tip is removed (1/4). Their ability to communicate/ express themselves is not compromised in any way. They’re not docked like show dogs used to be with just a stump left. While I understand most people are opposed to docking (and that’s fine), suggesting that it affects communication negatively is just not true. Both of my dog’s have long docks. Only the skinny tips have been removed. Most people think that my older dog hasn’t been docked at all.

Sorry Emily, I obviously hadn‘t read your post through properly, I was really referring to the dogs with only a tiny stump left which leaves them with limited opportunity of expression via tail movement and according to a report I read here (Germany) recently, can indeed have an effect on interaction between different breeds. Most people, whether dog savvy or not will recognize for example, that a dog with a tail between his legs is frightened, if he only has a stub he‘s at a disadvantage. I admit to having no idea at all about the current regulations or practices on docking in GB, I was under the (false) impression that docking meant complete amputation. Apologies for any misunderstanding!  ;)

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 07:35:35 PM »
That’s ok Bizzylizzy.  Didn’t mean to offend either  ;) I have a 14yo show type with a much shorter dock. Grew up with ditties that just had a tiny stump and it definitely affected their ability to communicate. Just didn’t want people to have the impression that working dogs had the same type of drastic dock.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline lucybennett

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2019, 03:16:05 PM »
Hi- I searched for a pup who was undocked. I absolutely love bailey’s full tail. A cocker’s wag and thump thump on the floor is one of their best features and whilst I absolutely understand the need for a hedge jumping working dog I don’t think it necessary and would never do it for a pet. X


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Offline sodpot2000

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Re: Tail docking
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2019, 01:41:59 PM »
My first cocker (1970's) was docked, as all cockers were then, and it didn't diminish his joie de vivre. Sophie (2000) was undocked, with something of a corkscrew because, I think, one of her littermates had chewed it! Even so she carried it with great pride. When she was very ill with meningitis her tail was her main way to communicate.
When we got Annie from Many Tears I wasn't sure if she hadn't been docked. It turned out that her tail was so tightly folded under her that it was nearly invisible. It was wonderful when it emerged and the flag started to fly.
I understand and support docking dogs who are going to work in the field, because of the seriousness of the injuries they can sustain, even if they are rare. For a pet however, I wouldn't contemplate docking.
There is something very reassuring about the exchange that goes:
'How you doing Annie?'
'Thump, thump, thump...'