conflicting boundary advice= very confused owner

[sophiep]

have had the worst 12 hours yet with Bo. up until last night we were progressing pretty well on the whole. toilet training 95% on the puppy pad, settling quick in puppy pen and crate at night and she was picking up her training really well but we live in an open plan house and we want the living room to be out of bounds- it is a step down from the dining room, kitchen and hall. she originally seemed to understand this quite well but in the last three or four days has been tearing round there more often biting at the rug. probably about 10 times a day (more if we have guests)  i thought this could be that she's growing a lot and needing more excercise but still not able to get out of the house. Also when this happened i would call her by her name (now know that is gonna be bad for her recall) then rewarding her with an ear scatch or bit of kibble for coming. then moving onto some training so she wouldn't think it was a game. we weren't making huge progress but it wasn't getting worse either. Anyway as this is my first working cocker (not dog) and the first time i'd used the clicker in training thought it would be a good idea to have a clicker trainer/ behaviourist (one that was reccomended to me on a pm through col) come round and observe us now that we've had her 2 weekw to see where we were going right and wrong and give us some advice.

Tbh both me and my husband were pretty anxious around the trainers' presence and bo definitely picked up on this running up stairs, on rug and tearing at toilet roll 20x more than she's ever done before. so it really wasn't a true representation of our joint behaviour... without going into it too much the one thing we decided to focus on was biting and boundaries.
she said instead of making distracting noise- clap or something to get bo to come to me, when she was in the living room, having seen her she thought it was better we go to her very matter of factly pick her up and put her in her allowed territory- dining room right next to the living room. needless to say bo now thinks this is a great game and literally does it non stop. i'm prepared to do it 101 times if it sinks in but i just want to be sure that this is the right path to go down. as its definintely going to get worse before it gets better.

with the biting we were saying oww, telling her she was a bully then stopping game and walking away. if she came after us and bit again we put her in kitchen and shut the door (thank goodness we do have 1 door!) but she would go straight away and attack the bin liner pocking out of the bin for the 40seconds time out.. despite my best efforts the design means it has to have a bit overlapping the side. so by the time i came in she barely even noticed.
the trainer said she'd already learnt what was going to happen and so this was no longer a useful way to react. instead we should put her in the pen as that is the only space we can isolate her in our house. this seems to be working but i dont really want the pen to have negative assocations.

she also suggested we scatter bo's food allowance on the floor to give her unsupervised play. this resulted in four poos and three wees on the floor this morning. where as normally they'd all be on the puppy pad. normally i'd use 50% of her food in training and 'where is it? search games but the trainer also thought this was resulting in bo becomiing frustrated having to work for so much of her food.

also as i'm now having to pick her up and put her in her pen for the biting and whilst i pick up all these poos we've no time left over for fun games together. i feel like our communication and 'relationship' is getting rapidly worse even though its only been a night and morning. she's getting handshy as my hands now = going in the pen and i'm no longer seen as a fun positive person she WANTS to be around.

as im lucky enough to work from home (more of the at home, less of the work tho since bo has arrived!!) i HAD been spending a lot of time doing fun search games with bo, lots of sit, recall, fetch etc as i think its better to tire her through mental stimulation so she doesn't make her own more destructive pass times. but the trainer thinks i'm giving her too much attention so she's not learning to settle out of her pen. this is hard as the house is open plan and she finds things to destroy everywhere. on the trainer's suggestion we have given her cereal packets and empty toilet rolls to destroy which she loves. is this ok? i have seen carboard in her poo when i first got her and her breeder allowed her to do this too.

i'm actually now scared of interacting with bo since this has all happened as its really shattered my confidence and where as before i thought we were making progress and having fun i know feel any interaction will inevitably end with me having to either pick her up, ignore her or put her in her pen.

i'm scared to put this post up and get more confused but lots of you seem to have really sound advice so if you think you can your help any advice would be most appreciated   

[cerinrich]

Poor you, Hattie (now 6 months) was our first puppy and we had no idea what had hit us! I couldn't believe that a small adorable ginger dog could make me cry.....

Hattie decided that racing around the house up and down the stairs (4 storey town house) was brilliant fun. Not only was this bad for her developing joints but while she was teething she was chewing everything in sight and when she had a tummy upset she went to the loo in every room... So we got an ugly but life-saving extra-tall stairgate! It doesn't look good but it makes so much difference. I'm studying part-time at the moment so am at home with Hattie a lot and wasn't getting any study done because I was constantly retriving her from around the house. Now she's got pently of space to mooch around but can't go anywhere she shouldn't. Of course Hattie needs to learn her boundaries but taking that stressful aspect of being with her away meant that I could be much more relaxed with her which is good for us both. Hattie also loves attention and I'm a big meanie because I make sure that for chunks of time, although we're in the same room, I pretty much ignore her while I study, with the occaisional 'good girl', or cuddle. When  it's 'her' time we play or do training. She's really good at settling and snoozing now and will only harrass me when she's truly bored - she's not very good at playing on her own yet. It does mean that she thinks that Rich is MUCH more fun than me though because he's got lots of time for her when he comes home from work

Part of the change is definitely just that Hattie is growing up. The really really crazy racing around and around in circles has nearly stopped now, which (I never thought I'd say this!) is actually quite sad! I'd got to the point where I thought that she just was mad or there was something wrong and I should worry but Hattie went to stay at my parents when we were away and they thought that it was hysterical and it made me much more relaxed, realise that it was just her being a normal puppy, and able to laugh at her again

As I said at the start, we're really new to all this and I'm sure that we're making lots of mistakes along the way, so this is really just a 'poor you, stick with it, it IS worth it' and 'stairgates are great' post. I'm sure that more experienced and better qualified people will give you lots of good advice

[sophiep]

thanks so much cerinrich. i really needed to hear that. i feel totally pathetic but have been really tearful and its not even time of the month! i think i'm so aware of the fact she's a working dog that i do have an element of guilt right from the offset that its not a working home and this is probably affecting my enjoyment of having a puppy as i want to give her the best, most stimulating environment i can. but you try your best and want so much to do the right thing the whole time that you end up being really serious and i personally am constantly referring to the books or forum. i have stopped laughing at her funny things and enjoying having a cheeky, confident puppy. i think so that i can regain my sanity i might use her puppy pen to block of the living room so that she doesn't spend so much time confined and learns to be calm outside the pen and invest in an ugly stairgate (although as an interior designer it will kill me!)
thanks again.

[KatieJean]

We also have a stairgate accross the kitchen. It means they are in a safe place for them as well. Good place to put them if they are muddy. It also means you will hear if she is up to michief and she will hear you. This was necessary many years ago as we had small children and a pup didn't know the difference between their toys and the childrens.
I'm not sure how old your puppy and I only know my experiences, there are trainers and breeders on this forum who will help I am sure, but I would wonder if she needs more rest. I know the people on here don't believe in using the crate for punishment.
Hope you get some help soon but try to relax and enjoy you puppy they grow up too fast, but cockers are always fun, and yes we have had problem ones at times.
By the way ours have chewed a turkish rug and I won't say how much it cost, but although they were told of rightly or wrongly we just accepted it.

[PennyB]

Why not walk out of the room yourself for a minute or two for timeout so you don't have to interact with her

Please take time to read the puppy forum on this site as you will then find a solution good for you

You also need to let her be on her own as well as you could end up with a pup/dog who can't bear to be alone and may have separation anxiety. I work from home but mine generally are in a different part of the house to me when I do some of the work.

Are you house training overnight as well, ie getting up to let her out (in theory if she's only eating her allowace of food in a different way then that shouldn't increase the amount of poo/wee) - during the day you need to be taking her out at regular intervals so she gets the message (I do it usually before eating, after eating, after sleep, after play etc.). It can sometimes takes a lot longer than people realise to housetrain a pup but please don't worry if she has accidents (if you worry she'll get more anxious as well) - it happens. Having an 'accident' doesn't mean they'll never learn it just means you've a mess to clean up They don't think of setbacks the way we do

[supergirl]

Oh Wow - sounds like you're not having as much fun as you would like.  You're doing all the right things, but sometimes it just takes a while to find out what works for your puppy.

Like you I also work from home, but don't have a open plan house.  I would just try and keep it simple and go with what works, if something doesn't work as well as you would like, don't do it - you just have to find another way of achieving the same result.  This is why COL is great because many members have found different ways of achieving the same outcome.

I would make more of creating her own area, so that you can leave her and get on with some work.  Possibly get a child gate for the kitchen so that she can see you, but not get to you, rather than shut the door.  As far as the bin is concerned take it out of reach - I haven't had a bin in the kitchen ever since Misha figured out how to tip it over (its now outside the back door).  Same with shoes - never left on the floor. Puppy proofing everything stops them chewing what doesn't belong to them. Is it possible to create some kind of barrier to stop her going in to the living room.  I have individual mesh panels (that can be made into a crate), that divide my back garden.  Unsightly yes, but its not forever and it will stop her going where she shouldn't. (got them from Croftonline). If I have guests over and I don't want the dogs jumping all over the place, they're removed to the kitchen, that way they can't do anything wrong.

The general rule with food is that after eating puppies need the loo, so quite often leaving food on the floor for them is sometimes asking for disaster.  I have only just started giving Roly stuffed Kongs to have when I go out with Misha, as he's housetraining is 100% now (he's 9 months).  When I've tried it before he just needed the loo afterwards which doesn't help his housetraining.

'Fraid you just have to grin and bear it - some puppies are easier than others, but generally once they figure it out its for good.  

[supergirl]

If you were looking for something more attractive to use as a barrier you could try the following:

http://www.orvis.co.uk/store/product_directory_tnail.asp?dir%5Fid=6259&group%5Fid=6664&cat%5Fid=6665&subcat%5Fid=6666

They're a bit pricey, but it might be possible in the current economic climate to get a local joiner to make it for you. 

[amanda9586]

Awww Bo sounds like a little bundle of fun   but boy can they drive you insane at times  

I'm a first time dog owner so I cant offer any great advice - just perhaps words of comfort that it does get better.  I work from home as well and we did not want Poppy all over the house so at first it was great she like Bo stayed downstairs of her own accord - but then like bo the wee mite figured she could just follow you up and no kind of telling her or trying to get her to stay was going to stop her at that point (she is a determined little devil at times!). We were quite happy in the future for her to be upstairs but not till we knew she could be trusted not to destroy everything in sight.  We ended up with a stair gate on the utility room to give us somewhere to put here while we just had a shower for example.  I wondered if life would ever be the same again.....  Sometimes it just seems like its one step forward 3 steps back   especially when you are in the very early stages and you cant walk them too far to tire them out.  

Its early days with everything and I'm sure you will get there in the end and have a fantastic dog to boot - you sound like you are doing a lot of things right to me - I found that somethings just dont work with Poppy and you will get to know what works best for your dog.  Just chin up and really enjoy the good moments!!

Amanda & Poppy x

[PennyB]

thanks so much cerinrich. i really needed to hear that. i feel totally pathetic but have been really tearful and its not even time of the month! i think i'm so aware of the fact she's a working dog that i do have an element of guilt right from the offset that its not a working home and this is probably affecting my enjoyment of having a puppy as i want to give her the best, most stimulating environment i can. but you try your best and want so much to do the right thing the whole time that you end up being really serious and i personally am constantly referring to the books or forum. i have stopped laughing at her funny things and enjoying having a cheeky, confident puppy. i think so that i can regain my sanity i might use her puppy pen to block of the living room so that she doesn't spend so much time confined and learns to be calm outside the pen and invest in an ugly stairgate (although as an interior designer it will kill me!)
thanks again.

Don't be surprised though if a working spaneil might even scale this - I recently fostered a 4 month old working springer who regularly scaled what I put up as a barrier

[sophiep]

thanks everyone. i will take into account your suggestions and reply longer this afternoon. but for now i'm going to get a coffee and buy some milk. leave the house for half hour and take my mind off it for a bit. i know everything is interlinked but as you can tell im feeling slightly overwhelmed at the mo so i dont want to go over everything. i'm not too worried about toilet training. as i said some things she's picked up fantastically and aside from this morning when i scattered her food on the floor she's been pretty good. the one thing i'd really like to focus on today is the running up the stairs and living room. whilst i can get a stairgate for the stairs the living room entrance is as wide as the room (prob 5 metres ) so putting a boundary across is going to be a bit tricky and as penny (i think ) pointed out pretty soon she's gonna be able to jump this- oh yes she's a leaper too! so in the mean time before stairgate arrives and so i can get her out pen could you please let me know one thing.. when she does inevitably go on the rug or up the stairs should i go to her and pick her up without saying anything and put her in the allowed territory- knowing full well i will no doubt have to do this 20 odd times or call her to me then reward for coming? then do some training to distract her from temptation to run on it again? p.s turkish rug comment made me laugh... and then cringe thinking about the possible destruction of my own. right . coffee time.

[supergirl]

Could try giving her a treat and make a fuss of her when she's in her own area and ignore her when she's in the forbidden area (no interaction whatsoever).

[Colin]

We've all been through it with pups, it can be very tiring - you have to choose your battles, block off or remove anything that is causing problems and then concentrate on the more important things like toilet training and the play biting... there's plenty of time to deal with other matters later when they are more receptive to their owner's wishes.

Re the living room is it a permanent measure that you don't want her in there, or just while she's a pup ? Cockers are social creatures and it seems a little harsh to me to ban her from that area of the house forever - although I appreciate that we all have different ideas regarding the boundaries we want to set. Having such a wide entrance to the living room is going to make it very difficult keeping her out, even as an adult, unless she is always confined when you are out. The puppy pen I have consists of 8 panels and can be put in a square, circle etc but can also make one long barrier of about 5 metres, so maybe it would be worth investing in one of these to block off the living room completely. From an interior design point of view it would be pretty ugly but I'd imagine all dog owners have had to make compromises on that score... I certainly have.     

[Karma]

so in the mean time before stairgate arrives and so i can get her out pen could you please let me know one thing.. when she does inevitably go on the rug or up the stairs should i go to her and pick her up without saying anything and put her in the allowed territory- knowing full well i will no doubt have to do this 20 odd times or call her to me then reward for coming? then do some training to distract her from temptation to run on it again? p.s turkish rug comment made me laugh... and then cringe thinking about the possible destruction of my own. right . coffee time.

Have only got time to respond to this point for the second - perhaps a compromise would be a house line, so you can guide/lure Bo away from the areas you don't want her in, without having to use your hands (as she is seeing this as a problem which could lead to a hand-shy adult dog).  Couple this with target training to a mat or something suitable in the areas you do want her in, and in time this should help. 

[mcphee]

I sympathise. I got a working strain black cocker as my first dog. and I found it very hard. Three things helped me. The stair gate, the dog flap, and the crate. I used a lot of Bob martin carpet rescue, and lost a lot of shoes, carpet, underlay and wooden knobs. As I write, I have a four year old black cocker lying by me, still rather smelly from this mornings session in the brambles, but warm, calm and peaceful. I am no expert, but the mouthing stopped suddenly, and the food manners training helped. I failed on recall while we are out, and I still get frustrated at some of my mistakes. It is worth it, however, so stick in there!

[LindyLou]

Hi Sophie, firstly your posts clearly show you adore your little girl. I have looked at your pictures of Bo and she's a gorgeous squidgy bundle and I'm guessing only around 10 to 12 weeks old?

You are obviously wanting to be the best mummy you can possibly be and sound very conscientious.

However, I feel I have to say, relax, enjoy and take some of that pressure off yourself!

Our Baxter is now one year old so it wasn't that long ago i was where you are - questioning myself, hoping I was doing the right thing and asking questions. It's been a bonkers year. We've had guarding issues, ruined slippers and poo's on the cream carpet! We've also had loads of fun and cocker snogs and luvin'.

I am no expert, but it sounds like a lot of Bo's behaviour is quite normal! The mad racing around i think every cocker owner has experienced. I used to judge this as Baxter releasing some pent up energy and would call him out into the garden for a romp around! Only for 10 minutes or so just to "get it out of his system." Once Bo can go out for for proper walks, i think you will see a change! She will come home and collapse!

After doing some training/play with Baxter i would want him to settle or play alone. I have always gathered all his toys away and each day give him a couple he hasn't seen for a while, or a new chew so he has a new interest to occupy him for a while.He does however, like to be near, so he would normally be by my feet and then fall asleep.

I have never used a crate but i do know from other Col'ers that they are supposed to be a safe place they enjoy, rather than a place of punishment. I am also not sure about the cereal packets and cardboard toilet rolls. i never wanted Baxter to shred and destroy. Do you not think this could lead Bo to believe it's ok to shred your mail, magazines and newspapers?

Anyway, Sophie, I am sure you are going to have a wonderful dog. The puppy stages are not easy, but your baby loves you and please don't be scared to interact with her. She will learn whats acceptable but give her some time to understand what you want!