Author Topic: nightmare walk!!!  (Read 3307 times)

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Offline montysmum

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nightmare walk!!!
« on: October 21, 2016, 01:58:26 PM »
Hey everyone. I'm looking for some advise and have suddenly lost all confidence with letting Monty off the lead. He's currently nearly 5 months. I've been walking him off the lead for the last 2 weeks in our local wood and around a field. Its been ok. He does go quite far in front of me but often a few shouts of "Monty"!! brings him back. Monty and I went for our usual walk today and his recall was rubbish. I lost him in the woods at one point and he eventually re-appeared after me bellowing "Monty"!! for what felt like ages. He also kept going too far away and wouldnt recall to me at all. All in all, it was a stressful walk for me and i'm now dreading letting him off again. He has grown in confidence this week and gradually going further away from me. I'm wondering where this will end. I purchased a acme whistle to help his recall and used it the 1st time today but as it was a rubbish walk, i'm wondering if he doesnt like the sound. Any advise or hand-holding would be much appreciated. I'm hoping its a one-off.
A lovely dog with long floppy ears
a friend you have memories with
all through the years

Much love from

Monty and Tina


Offline trongo88

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 02:15:49 PM »
Hi montysmum

We dog sat for a friend of ours a year ago ,and their cocker spaniel was trained to come back with a whistle. She was really good , every time she got a bit too far, we just needed to blow the whistle and she would come running back as she knows there's a treat waiting for her.

My new puppy Ollie has just started fhis week on the whistle training and he's picking it up very quick. Maybe it might be an idea to get monty trained on a whistle for recall? We were recommended ACME whistles and can get them on amazon for a few quid. Hope his helps

Offline Pearly

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 02:30:46 PM »
Welcome to the world of the cocker spaniel  :005:

It's not the sound of the whistle he doesn't like but that he doesn't know to associate the whistle to a recall.  If you don't know how to do this, I would urge you to a) read the pinned notice about a reliable recall and b) seek the help of a professional trainer.

It's best to stop this behaviour now, otherwise you'll still be using a long line in 18 months time......like I am with Coral  ;). Make yourself far more interesting than anything else around him......and keep him close, it won't be long before he realises that more than 10 feet away = complete freedom to do what he wants when he wants  ph34r

Good luck! It's easier with some dogs than others.......

Offline Lulabear

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 04:10:06 PM »
Hi I'm going through the exact thing with cooper. He's also 5 months. He goes too far ahead and I worry about him running into less friendly dogs and generally being out of my control.  What I've started doing is stopping on the path whilst he runs ahead. I call him and when he realises I'm not there he runs back to find me. I praise him saying 'good find mummy'. (I know!!!) and always take high value treats with me (chicken cheese or frankfurts).
I can also see his confidence is growing (except when it comes to being left alone! Having big struggles there!). I so sympathise. Losing your puppy sure ruins a joyful walk...
 I plan to continue with the stopping and sometimes hiding a bit and calling him back. Praising and treating. If cooper goes the same way I guess the whistle recall is next!
I do believe any dog can be trained so another option which I'm considering for the whole leaving issue (if it gets worse) would be a session with a behaviourist.
 You are not alone! Me and my puppy are right here doing the same...

Offline ragione

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 05:42:07 PM »
I have same problem with 10month old Leo! He is so obsessed with sniffing the ground and lord help me if he comes across a cat or a squirrel or even a bird! I bought a whistle and intend to have a go at that too. Although son took it on our walk today and kept blowing it and just for blowing it's sake...


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Offline Londongirl

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 06:39:21 PM »
The thing about the whistle is that you have to train them that the sound of the whistle means come back. They're not born preprogrammed to know. So if you just blow the whistle without doing the training it's not going to work.

As Pearly said above, there is a pinned post in the Behaviour and Training section on recall training that incorporates ehistle training. It's a brilliant method and does work. I trained Henry at about 5-6 months as he was just as you describe. He was brilliant with it for several months but is having a bit of a relapse aged 14 months. I'm going back to the basic training and it does come back quickly.
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2016, 06:51:36 PM »
Not popular I know, but after months of resisting it I finally took the advice of others on here and bought a 10meter long line and I can  honestly say its the best thing we did. We  used  it for about two months, which admittedly was a bit of a pain at the time but well worth it, Humphrey very rarely wanders off now and turns to check frquently where we are. Its also very good for learning whistle recall. If you can, I'd suggest getting help from a trainer or get a book or have a look on the net for youtube videos so that you get the best out of it and its also a good idea to use a well fitting harness.
The Recall thread on here is also excellent and certainly worth reading!

Offline AlanT

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2016, 07:35:46 PM »
My dog is three this month. He's had a lot of training. Both from me and professional classes.

He's GOOD. Recall is usually excellent.

BUT

There come days when he just does not listen. He's away. You call, he'll stop and look at you and then he's off.

So now I only release where there is LOTS of room and not much about. I've thought about a tracking collar actually.

So how ever hard you try this may always be a problem.

Offline Geordietyke

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2016, 09:22:04 AM »
I started whistle training Monty from around 4 months old and he was responding really well, until he's hit 8 months old  >:D  His hearing is now "selective" at best so it's back to square 1 with reinforcement/long line etc.
Both taken away from us far too soon. x  RIP Angels Odie & Archie, causing mayhem at the Rainbow, no doubt!

Offline JeffD

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2016, 10:28:46 AM »
To be honest letting a working breed of 5 months have free run in woodland is asking for trouble, so many gamey smells the pup will learn to self hunt and curing this will be very difficult, you need the recall and the staying close installed first. Off lead training should be on a grass park with nothing interesting to find, the only interesting thing should be you, treats or a ball. You need the pup to be focused on you.
Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly

Offline Pearly

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2016, 11:26:30 AM »
My dog is three this month. He's had a lot of training. Both from me and professional classes.

He's GOOD. Recall is usually excellent.

BUT

There come days when he just does not listen. He's away. You call, he'll stop and look at you and then he's off.

So now I only release where there is LOTS of room and not much about. I've thought about a tracking collar actually.

So how ever hard you try this may always be a problem.

Sorry, AlanT I disagree on this one.  It may take a very long time and a lot of hours but you can instill brakes and recall - both of which are vital with a working cocker spaniel.

Having been to many Gundog training classes there are a number of tips and hints I've picked up in the last few years: a dogs hearing isn't fully developed until it's at least 10 months old.  So however good you think your dog is at recall/stop at distance you as a pup you need to keep working at this until they are fully grown - and in some cases, all the time.  Dogs are born with their sense of smell, that's how they find milk from heir mothers, it also gets them into a whole heap of bother when they discover what those delicious smells outdoor belong to...........this time of year the ground scent is at its strongest which is why you (Montysmum and others on here) are finding your pups are running off.

Dogs go through three phases of development.  Puppy - this includes bite inhibition (cockerdile) the zoomies along with all the expected puppy stuff shuch as toilet training.  Adolescence - this includes the selective hearing issues, developing confidence and "bogging off" plus many other acts of defiance and can try even the most patient.  Adult - this is the phase that the dog starts to realise what all the training has been about but you've yet to see consistency - it feels like a mix of what could be and what you've just been through with adolecence.  Approximate ages - puppy, 5-7 months, adolecence 10-18 months and adult is 20-26 months. (Source Kipperidge Gun dogs).

Coral was a far better Puppy than Pearl, Adolecence started at 8 months and only started to disappear at 18 months.  We are now in full "adult" phase at 21 months - some days she is fabulous (entered a working test) other days it's difficult to see her she moves so quickly and if any living creature has the audacity to appear she gives chase........this will be a very tough nut to crack but I have a plan  ;)

Never, ever, think that walking a cocker spaniel is just that - it's not! It's a training opportunity.  My very first Gundog lesson with Pearl almost exactly 5 years ago, I was asked why I was taking her so far.....the idea is to walk very little distance and get your dog to do the work for you by quartering either side.  It is possible to take a Gundog on a walk but this takes dedication and commitment to training - The Walshies take Fudge  :luv: on huge distances but I've noticed on every COL meet that Dave spends time reinforcing the stop and recall with him.

What I'm trying to articulate is that the wcs is bred to hunt and retrieve.  Some will have more natural instinct than others but all wcs need to be trained to get the best out of them otherwise, as JeffD has indicated, you will end up with an out of control dog that either spends the rest of its life on a lead or is rehomed - I'm certain that none on here want that which is why you have asked the question to start with  ;)

Please "go back to basics" Monty is not ready to go out in woods until you know he can stop at distance and come back when you want, even if that means recalling a few times (I have a zero tolerance but then I intend working Coral and can't afford for her to ignore a turn or recall whistle).

It's not easy owning wcs - they are lovely natured dogs that are very cute and unlike some dogs also have brains which makes the training even more difficult!

Offline Londongirl

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2016, 12:42:55 PM »
Since Henry hit adolescence, I've gone out on every 'walk' with a lesson plan. When he was a Puppy (using the stages outlined above) walks were a pleasure. And one day they will be again. But for now, I'm always working on his behaviour when we're out. Once I'd accepted this was how things would be for a while, I got a lot less frustrated.

Today we spent a lot of time ambling through two big fields. Henry was on the long line 'quartering', nose to the ground, back and forth. My OH was concerned he wasn't getting a good run. He doesn't need a good run, he needs to work his nose. He's currently fast asleep at my feet. 
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline Pearly

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2016, 12:51:36 PM »
Since Henry hit adolescence, I've gone out on every 'walk' with a lesson plan. When he was a Puppy (using the stages outlined above) walks were a pleasure. And one day they will be again. But for now, I'm always working on his behaviour when we're out. Once I'd accepted this was how things would be for a while, I got a lot less frustrated.

Today we spent a lot of time ambling through two big fields. Henry was on the long line 'quartering', nose to the ground, back and forth. My OH was concerned he wasn't getting a good run. He doesn't need a good run, he needs to work his nose. He's currently fast asleep at my feet.

 :D completely agree, it's better to train a spaniels brain than to have a very fit out of control spaniel - Henry sounds as though he's coming on fabulously!

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2016, 01:31:01 PM »
Many thanks for that Jayne, really informative!!  Just one question re your zero tolerance on recall - how do you enforce it? Have to say that although Humphrey's ruled by his nose, he's  really pretty good at not hunting (he's a show, not a worker)and stays pretty close most of the time. Walking our guest labby yesterday and two deer appeared, the labby gave chase with Humphrey close on his heels, I blasted the whistle pretty hysterically, Humphrey turned and came back and the labby carried on (although  I rather suspect the presence of a bit of competition has increased the motivation to stick with me and you can almost see that snitchy "TOM's naughty isn't he Mum, not like me!"  look on his face!) Sometimes  it'll take a while til he decides to react though and he'll often  think about it for a bit and then amble back in his own time. How do you deal with this? Go and fetch him? Put the lead on?  I'm never really sure how I should react?

Offline Pearly

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Re: nightmare walk!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2016, 03:45:35 PM »
In the main Coral is on a long lead, if she doesn't turn on the first whistle (double pip) then I'll either walk out to her and remind her by moving her back to where she was when I pipped her and blow two pips at her again......likewise the stop whistle (one long blast).  Recall is two sets of double pips - if she doesn't respond, I walk out to her, put her back, double pip twice and then tell her to sit (hup command) I walk backwards from her then recall in - she always does and she then gets affection or a treat.

Although Hunphrey is a show type he's also a cocker spaniel.  Pearl is a show type, showed no interest in chasing at all until Coral led her astray...... There are two schools of thought on this (that I'm aware of) 1 let your dog chase in a safe environment - beaches are usually good for this as are seagulls - until the penny drops that there's no point in chasing as they never catch  ;)2 use old fashioned methods which require a trainer and a set up that has sheep, rabbits, birds that can be used to teach the dog some manners and a very good stop!

How to stop a dog chasing once it starts? That's out of my experience level, sorry  :lol:

What a good lad Humphrey was to recall  :D