CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Helen on February 10, 2008, 10:12:33 AM
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I happily admit I was a completely naive first time working cocker owner, and no, Jarv's sire and dam were not health tested (as a majority of working cockers aren't when bred).
Since Bryning posted regarding having her working cocker bitch tested and coming back as a PRA carrier it really has got me thinking hard.
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=35903.0 (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=35903.0)
What really concerns me is that if current breeding 'styles' continue then we are heading for some tragic consequences. I know that there are very very few working cocker breeders that do spend the money and test their dogs (and Workingcockers - Kirsten- should be applauded for doing so) - I'm thinking that *unless* something awful happens within a line then the 'head in the sand' attitude will continue. To me there's no point in having a FT CH as a sire (for example, and I am not suggesting this is currently the case...) if he is a PRA carrier :-\
This, and a majority of the workers on here, are bought via who we think are reliable breeders - some are reknown working cocker kennels, some are (like Jarvis) from a line bred by a gamekeeper...but more and more are popping up via 'commercial' breeders who care even less about health testing.
What do you all think? :shades:
ps I will be testing Jarv for my own piece of mind
I can't help but think we're hiding our heads in the sand here....
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I haven't got anything to add, except that I totally agree with you Helen.
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I agree Helen but unfortunatly it would seem that the whole process around breeding Working Cockers is a tricky one.
The commercial breeders probably aren't ever going to test (unless it becomes a case of people won't buy unless) and the 'reliable' breeders seem to work in the dark ages with cockers. I find it incredible that gun dog breeders who have both labs and cockers will have tested labs but not cockers but if you speak to them they seem to genuinely believe that 'you don't need to test a cocker'.
Unfortunatly a lot of their reason to breed w. cockers is to produce a good dog for the field which unfortunatly have a shelf life and are a dispposable commodity. They are only really usefull for the first half of their lives and thus health issues that develop with age are somewhat irrelivent as a dog will have passed it's 'useful' stage by the time some problems come through and even if the problems come through early, they won't put the work in and move onto the next prodigey. Plenty of breeders will have dogs that are no longer fit for the field for whatever reason 'free to a good home' so to speak. That's a big generalisation but essentially it's true. From my experience, of course they love their dogs but not in the same way that a 'pet' owner does.
If we could 'vote with our feet' and demand it then fine but since practically no-one tests it's not really an option. :-\
If you look at something like the 'nobs' forum, the attitude in the working world to breeding is just incredible >:D and that's the kind of people that working dogs are bread for.
Having said all of this it's very difficult for a 'new' breeder to come into the market unless they have pups with a 'red' pedigree. Therefore they would need to have a derirable sire that is tested and good a proven working bitch and then more again if there were to be more than one line ....
err, i'm not making much sense but hopefully you see what I mean. Basically, untill it becomes 'the norm' it likely won't happen and what is there to make it become the norm?
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to make it the 'norm' we tragically have to have cases of PRA (for e.g) rearing it's ugly head on a more regular basis....and unfortunately this WILL happen.....
As for a 'red' pedigree - actually, I don't think that is an issue in working circles (down this way anyway) - FT CH's are not the be-all and end-all when getting a reliable, all-day-long worker (and through the next couple of generations anyway there will always be FT CH in 4th or 5th gens). It makes them more 'saleable' if the pedigree is you just go by the 'red' but a good breeder with good stock (albeit health untested :-\ ) will have homes lined up anyway.
I have looked at the Nobs forum and find their attitude incredibly short sighted and terribly sad if this is indeed representative.
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I have looked at the Nobs forum and find their attitude incredibly short sighted and terribly sad if this is indeed representative.
I think it is unfortunately Helen...I've almost converted Matt, but not that that will help ::)
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I agree Helen - although I think that the "head in the sand" attitude is prevalent within a lot of breeds; perhaps the fact that testing has been accepted within many highly regarded show-cocker lines magnifies the blinkered attitude amongst working cocker breeders?
I eliminated a different breed from my short list when I was looking for a dog, purely because when I began to chat to breeders on the phone and online, the attitude I encountered was "our breed doesn't have health problems" ::) ::)
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....although I think that the "head in the sand" attitude is prevalent within a lot of breeds;
I find it incredible that gun dog breeders who have both labs and cockers will have tested labs......
Unfortunately I've come across lab breeders who don't bother to eye test or hip & elbow score their breeding stock either; labs are also a popular breed that have suffered by being over-produced & they have as many, if not more, hereditary problems as cockers. >:(
I have looked at the Nobs forum and find their attitude incredibly short sighted and terribly sad if this is indeed representative.
I agree, Helen.
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I'm incredibly naive and wasn't aware that working Cockers weren't routinely health tested before breeding and more or less than the show type. I s'pose I thought that if gamekeepers etc were breeding dogs for work then they'd want to make sure that they would have a good, long working life. :-\ Guess that shows my naivety. ::) But it might also be that I didn't do any research into working Cockers as I don't have one, but Milo's dad was a working Cocker and he had been PRA tested. He must be in the minority.
Agree though, that the same health testing should be done in all working strain breeds in the same way it should be done for the show types of the same breed.
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what I have found is that in the days before optigen, when I 'only' had the visual eye exams and hips, many of my buyers werent interested in the fact that at least the dam had an eye certificate as 'well, theres no probs anyway'. Have to say these were older people who were buying a pup to train, as a replacement for an ageing dog etc and were old school of thought. Now, even with my optigen tested dogs, no one has asked me what it means, buyers really arent interested (but I bet they would be if their dog went blind early). Its quite dis heartening.
ClaireB - was Milo's dad done under the KC eye scheme or Optigen tested?
The way I see it as it stands just now, Optigen hasnt yet become a KC scheme which means that results are not public. I think it is partially fear that is stopping many of the 'names' from testing, I cant believe that all do not know that the test is available..So, if they were to use the test now,it would add extra appeal to any champions that were clear and any carriers could be used with caution and any affecteds quietly withdrawn from stud. I know its not an ideal scenario though but I do think this 'fear' is a big reason not to test.
As for the dogs that are tested to date, I have 3, bryning has 2, Chris Bridgwater has 2 and I know of another 2, this brings the total I know of to 9, which is 7 clear, 2 carriers.
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I just wrote out a long post on this and my session timed out :005: but basically
I firmly believe in testing where and when its available I was booted off the NOBs forum in part for this view.
Mine are tested despite the fact that its not necessary in cockers and I've been strongly advised NOT to test by various people. I have provided my test results for optigen to my breeder and the breeders of my dogs sire and dam - my results were CLEAR :D
Attitudes won't change until the clubs get behind the testing and request the KC make a note of them on the KC Registrations, something that they currently don't do. The only request is for an EYE TEST with GONIOSCOPY even though there are lots of other tests available that should be carried out including DNA tests which are growing as more is known about the dogs DNA.
The reason that some breeders are prepared to test their labs but not their cockers is because its not a KC requirement. These are the requirements for the labs:
1) Hip scoring 2) Eye testing 1) Elbow grading 2) DNA test - PRA
I think that speaks volumes, here is a breed that has taken the bull by the horns and made some real positive changes to their breeding program something I think ALL the breeds should be doing.
At the end of the day dogs only need to be tested once if its DNA and a bitch is acceptably ok to have three litters a stud dog if popular can have an enormous impact so the cost is more than covered in the production of ONE SINGLE LITTER or STUD SERVICE.
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So if a dog were tested would it just be the owner that was privvy to the results or would it be available to the public? So really, there is no way of knowing what the truth is if a person says they have tested without seeing the certificate?
I don't understand how it all works, passing through generations etc but given the relativly small gene pool for Working cockers couldn't it potentiallly wipe out a good number of lines if one popular sire were proven to be a carrier? (or is that wrong :-\ ) If that is the case the future of working cockers would be very different? Say if like a very well known trialing kennel dogs are closely bread, if one high up the chain were a carrier the whole line could be in jeapordy and then the work that has been put into improving the dogs in that line could stop right there as they would have to stop breeding that line? ....oh doG, i'm having trouble making sense today - I hope that is understanable.
Or would it all be ok by never putting a carrier to another carrier?
I cant believe that all do not know that the test is available..
Yes particularly when it is so relevant in other working breeds, it must come up!
The reason that some breeders are prepared to test their labs but not their cockers is because its not a KC requirement.
I just don't understand when they are familiar with the process and costs etc by having done it for their Labs, it baffels me as to why they don't test cockers too :huh:
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basically you can have your results open to the public, you make a copy of your certificate sign it and send it in to OFA along with a fee and they publish it. I haven't done that bit yet although I think I will. There are some UK bred dogs on it but I am not sure if you have to be registered in the US to have your details maintained.
If the Breed Clubs agreed that the test results can be collected and placed on the registrations then the KC would collect them. So basically you would need to get a letter together for each of the relative breed clubs for the UK and ask at their AGM for the DNA testing to be added to requirement for the breed and IF they all agree then they can make a request to the KC. It can't be done on an individual basis.
I have given the KC a copy of my dogs clear results for the 'prcd Mutation Test for PRA' which is the red cone degeneration of the disease but it will only be noted on their records not listed for anyones use. The Optigen form states that this is the only form of PRA recognised in this breed so I don't know if that means that other forms of the disease could still occur.
Dogs could still suffer from other forms of PRA including CPRA (centralised PRA) is supposed to be diet related based on a poor diet & vitamin E deficiency rather than genetically passed down although its still under debate in some circles.
I would at some point like another cocker and prefer it be of my own breeding so I have more choice so it would definitely be interesting to know which stud dogs have been tested is there a list available????
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Tasha, Optigen test results for prcd_PRA will be added to KC registrations in the near future - the KC need the breed clubs to give their formal support to a request and that is in the process of going through at the moment although it might take a few months. I don't think this step will actually make much difference to the lack of testing by working Cocker breeders since the KC system already incorporates clinical eye test results and still only a small minority of Working Cocker breeders use the scheme.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Lab breeders test because it's a KC requirement - there is no KC requirement to do any testing in Labradors unless the breeder is a member of the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme. Since the ABS only has 2000 or so members (all breeds), it follows that the majority of breeders are not members of the scheme and so any testing is purely voluntary. It's just that testing has become "accepted practice" in Lab circles whereas it's not in Working Cocker circles although the fact we've even got this thread on COL is a step forward compared to a few years ago ;)
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I was exactly the same on not knowing before I joined this site. When we bought Fenn i did ask is there any health problems such as eyes...and was told "cockers don't have problems with there eyes".....as well Martins uncle whom is a game keeper has breed from a lab who has epileptic fits!!...I couldn't believe it when I heard and I know for a fact many of the underkeepers have used this dog for stud....it is shocking...and I think this probably happens with a few gamekeepers...like others have said the dog is only seen as a working tool and easily replaced leading to lots of litters with god knows what inherited problems as long as the dog serves its purpose...... with all Fenns problems Martins uncle said."I'd have her put down :o I couldn't believe it, but I knew that is exactly what he would do....and probably his self :'(
I again know another gunman whom has bred from his lab and one of the litter who a friend has, has a very bad hip score and is now very unwell with bad hips...they only found out this when testing her as wanted to breed but thank god had the sense not to ignore it and didn't breed from her....the dam has since had another litter...
I know that if I bred from Fenn (which won't happen), that I would want the best of the best for her....knowing that not only was she getting a proven working dog for her babies but that the stud was as healthy and fit as possible....yes it would cost but surely that it what your girl deserves....with many gamekeeper working dog breeders if must be the money thing.....and no disrespect to the men but it seems to be the old breed gamekeepers who are the worst.....things definitely need to change!
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Sorry to slightly detract but what are the tests that breeding cockers should have had done? We will defintely be getting another working cocker when Fenn is about 2 to 3yrs old and want to be totally tooled with the right questions....but from whats being said a lot of breeders wont have tested there breeding dogs anyhow... :huh:
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At the risk of making myself a bit of a target here I can confirm that I have just got Spice tested and expect her results within the next couple of weeks.
I have not made a definite decision to breed and have avidly read all threads on here over the last 6 years of cocker ownership.
My decision will depend on outcome of tests and how things go this year with agility. Before anyone asks she is not a proven "gundog" but is becoming a very proven agility dog BUT that is another thread. All I wanted to say was I the fact that Spice was from working lines did not cause me to question whether she should be tested or not. The fact that she could be tested for a genetic problem is most important to me as one of the key issues when deciding whether I go on and breed or look for a simlarly bred dog. I would not breed without doing the testing.
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:D I think thats brilliant and I have often contemplated having Fenn tested....just to know, if you know what I mean....hope Spice's results are positive :-*
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I think I can safely say that my answer to the original question is most definitely YES ::) :-\
I do agree that this is issue really is going to require a huge shift in attitudes amongst many of the working/shooting fraternity, I'm also a member of NOBS and frequently have to sit on my hands to keep from posting things which would probably get me banned. The attitude of many of them to breeding is something else, basically anyone who thinks they have a nice dog should be able to breed them as and when they want and anyone who says otherwise should just keep their nose out of it. This head in the sand attitude is very prevalent and as Kirsten says will be very hard to change as people are afraid of what they may find out. You just have to look on the likes of 'that' classified ad site as well to see that there are more and more backyard breeders starting to churn out working cockers as well, health testing will probably not even feature in most of their thought processes.
I hugely applaud what Kirsten is doing with her dogs, we've had many long conversations on this subject including just the other evening and I know where I will be getting my next working cocker pup from. I'm gutted that Rodaidh has been diagnosed with LP and I don't particuarly want to find myself in this situation ever again. He will be hip scored when they X-ray his knees and I am also going to have him Optigen tested as I was planning to do all along to satisfy my own curiosity.
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Rosie, Jarv will be tested too - for my own piece of mind, irrelevant of whether I will ever contemplate using him as a stud. If that makes us a target, we're responsible ones ;)
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ClaireB - was Milo's dad done under the KC eye scheme or Optigen tested?
TBH, I don't know. ::) When I was looking at puppies I knew parents should be PRA tested, but didn't know about the various types of tests available for PRA, and certainly didn't know about Optigen testing. (Only found out about that when I joined COL when Milo was 8 months old.) I've searched on t'internet for Milo's sire, and it just says "eye tested clear certificate". I suspect that it probably wasn't the Optigen test and the test may not be worth the paper it was written on. :-\
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I suspect that it probably wasn't the Optigen test and the test may not be worth the paper it was written on.
not so..it means at the time he was tested he was unaffected by cpra and gpra. Which is a great start and more than the parents of many worker cockers ever have. The downside if you can call it that, is that its a bit like a car MOT, ie 'at the time of testing was safe' which is why annual checks were recommended and there is a reduced fee for veteran dogs to try and encourage long term testing, even after breeding age, as this is when late onset problems would be picked up. It was all we had for many years and still has its place esp for cpra and the one off gonio test. The only caveat is that carriers will always have a clear eye certificate under the scheme as they are unaffected but a visual test cannot pick up on the fact that the dog has one copy of the mutant gene. But, it is really good news that Milo's dad has an eye certificate :D
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I had to twist the arm of the breeder I brought Ayla from to have eye testing done at one of the gamefairs but he did do it not only on her sire and dam but also on her littermate and I have copies of the certificates. These tests are certainly better than no test at all and they are what the majority of the UK breeder/Owners use. There is also no excuse to not getting them done as they have eye clinics at most of the gamefairs which are not very expensive.
I still get the yearly check up done because there are other problems that eye can be effected by that could be highlighted during the tests. Plus if you go to Dr Bedford he lets you have a peak at your dogs eyes and gives a fabulous explanation of what your looking at :D I'd find it totally fascinating they have so many more colours gradients than we do I really would love to know how their vision works.
The recommended under the Accredited breeders scheme is Eye Test with Gonioscopy, DNA test for PRA and Hip Scoring. Which is an excellent start really.
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But, it is really good news that Milo's dad has an eye certificate :D
Thanks, Kirsten, that's really good to know. ;)
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I think testing should be easier for folk,.... after all why do optigen have the market? its seems silly that dogs dna has to go to america to be tested . why cant it all be done here in this country by local vets sending a sample off to the lab. for instance Id like to get at least one of mine done out of curiosity, but its all seems so complicated.. If I could just take the dog to the vet and let them deal with it..but it seems so much more complicated. maybe its just me. Do they ever have a scottish clinic? ie in the highlands? or even north of perth? I really need someone to walk me through it...probably do all the work and Ill take the dog for the blood test and pay for it..not a problem,.... its the geography that gets in the way.
after all there are plenty old style working cockers here ( and I dont know of any with bad eyesight!) and if the testing was easier and more accessable maybe youd get the working fraternity round. after all when there were sheep dog trials in the villlage I live in, the local vet was an eye specialist and a lot of the dogs were booked in for annual eye testing. sadly that vet is in inverness now he even may be retired. surley if the collie working crowd are testing the gundog world will follow.. shepherd and keepers.. often one and the same. are the collie crowd ( trialling not showing) going for optigen or is it still the annual eyetest.?
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I think testing should be easier for folk,.... after all why do optigen have the market?
Unfortunately, many canine DNA tests have been legally patented by the companies involved in developing/researching these tests which in the case of prcd_PRA in Cockers is Optigen. This means no other laboratory can offer the test unless they are specifically licensed as agents by Optigen (they have only licensed one Dutch laboratory & one French company in Europe). In practice though, it really isn't that difficult to send samples to Optigen - you don't have to take part in a clinic (although it's cheaper to do so). Your own vet can take the blood samples and then once the paperwork is all filled out, they can be sent on to the US. This is the way we've always done it with our own dogs and it's really quite straightforward as long as you follow Optigen's step by step instructions from their website.
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I think testing should be easier for folk,.... after all why do optigen have the market?
Unfortunately, many canine DNA tests have been legally patented by the companies involved in developing/researching these tests which in the case of prcd_PRA in Cockers is Optigen. This means no other laboratory can offer the test unless they are specifically licensed as agents by Optigen (they have only licensed one Dutch laboratory & one French company in Europe). In practice though, it really isn't that difficult to send samples to Optigen - you don't have to take part in a clinic (although it's cheaper to do so). Your own vet can take the blood samples and then once the paperwork is all filled out, they can be sent on to the US. This is the way we've always done it with our own dogs and it's really quite straightforward as long as you follow Optigen's step by step instructions from their website.
do they ever do clinics near inverness even? my vets are very up on cattle and sheep but small animals well not really. tho they do caharge enough.
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All your vets have to do is take a blood sample - they wouldn't have to be small animal specialists or be very knowledgable about DNA tests. I think that's probably the only way you'd be able to do it as I don't see many clinics advertised in Scotland. Anybody can organise a clinic though so if there were enough people interested in Scotland, one could be set up fairly easily (http://www.optigen.com/opt9_clinicinfo.html)
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Optigen themselves only have a licence and they lost part of it to Antegene for Europe for some tests to if you wanted to do both the eye and the FN testing which I wanted to do you can't ::) they are not the patent holder for the tests. There are some tests that the UK do like for an example when the coat testing came in last year with a little pressure the AHT under took some genetic research so that they could also offer the same tests. Antegene sometime just collect the stuff and pass it on though which I find totally ridiculous. At least their website is in english now though, pity they don't offer the discounts for multidogs that Optigen do though makes the tests very expensive.
The collies are optigen testing I went to one of their clinics had a long discussion about coat colours :005:
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...if you wanted to do both the eye and the FN testing which I wanted to do you can't ::) ......Antegene sometime just collect the stuff and pass it on though which I find totally ridiculous.
It's really very easy to send a sample to Antagene for FN testing and they will then pass on the extracted DNA to Optigen for the PRA test. I'm not sure why you find that ridiculous :huh: You only have to take one sample from your dog and send off one package so I can't see the problem there. Antagene also do offer a breeder discount for multiple dogs (although not a particularly generous discount).
If we want these genetic tests, we have to accept that commercial factors do play a huge role in how and where they are offered - much as we might like every test to be easily available via the AHT in the UK, it's just never going to happen.
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when I asked about having both done they weren't able to do it and it would have meant taking two groups of blood samples from the same dog to send it out to two different companies. The site has definitely improved but I did make alot of enquiries to see if I could get the tests done together and in the end I've done them seperately at different times. As it was a clinic it would have been a little unfair to have asked them to do the second set of tests and forward it on my behalf to a different company.
The discount offered from both the multi dna test and the clinic itself would have been lost.
The reason I found it so silly was because the package could have gone direct to Optigen for both tests from the same vials but if I wanted to do the FN test I was advised I would have to send the blood sample and paper work to antegene and they would then forward it to Optigen, it takes longer going via france and then on to the us instead of direct from the UK to the US. I'm not sure if they are doing the same procedure now or if the test itself is done in France.
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I think maybe you had Ayla tested in that in-between stage last year before things were set up properly by Antagene. I know clinics run recently just for Cockers have taken one sample per dog for both PRA & FN testing. It does take longer going via France to the US but then we find samples sent as part of a clinic tend to take longer anyway than doing it all yourself.
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So just getting my head around all this by mating say a dam who is PRA clear with a sire whom is a carrier you will not get any carrier pups? or would you have 50/50 :-\ sorry am confused. Have just been reading up on this on NOBs and their logic is if you mate a clear with a carrier you may have some clear and some carriers..and this is ok because you can then mate clear with clear, ect? surely this isn't good because you are just prolonging the diease...but then again .....sorry have lost this now could someone post me a dummies guide ph34r :005:
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So just getting my head around all this by mating say a dam who is PRA clear with a sire whom is a carrier you will not get any carrier pups? or would you have 50/50 :-\ sorry am confused. Have just been reading up on this on NOBs and their logic is if you mate a clear with a carrier you may have some clear and some carriers..and this is ok because you can then mate clear with clear, ect? surely this isn't good because you are just prolonging the diease...but then again .....sorry have lost this now could someone post me a dummies guide ph34r :005:
This page is really informative and easy to follow :blink:
http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/optigen_FN.htm (http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/optigen_FN.htm)
My issue is that with the way a lot of working cockers are bred if someone buys a PRA carrier what's to stop them breeding without testing and inadvertently mate a carrier/carrier or carrier/affected? Chances are very high that this is happening right now...
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are the collie crowd ( trialling not showing) going for optigen or is it still the annual eyetest.?
For the most part...no. They tend to use the stance that working dogs need to be healthy to work. They can tell if a dog is blind/deaf, etc and so it is removed from the gene pool. ::)
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So just getting my head around all this by mating say a dam who is PRA clear with a sire whom is a carrier you will not get any carrier pups? or would you have 50/50 :-\ sorry am confused. Have just been reading up on this on NOBs and their logic is if you mate a clear with a carrier you may have some clear and some carriers..and this is ok because you can then mate clear with clear, ect? surely this isn't good because you are just prolonging the diease...but then again .....sorry have lost this now could someone post me a dummies guide ph34r :005:
In an ideal world from a genetic health perspective, you would try not to mate a carrier, because, as you rightly say, it passes the affected gene onto another generation of dogs - BUT......in order to exclude carriers from any breeding programmes, the gene pool of dogs suitable for breeding has to be large enough to maintain genetic diversity of future generations.
Never breeding from carriers is definitely desirable; but even within the tested show cocker lines, breeders do use carriers in order to further a particular line and maintain a large enough genetic pool to keep the breed viable ;)
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My issue is that with the way a lot of working cockers are bred if someone buys a PRA carrier what's to stop them breeding without testing and inadvertently mate a carrier/carrier or carrier/affected? Chances are very high that this is happening right now...
Exactly, these are cases in which ignorance is most definitely not bliss :-\ There is just no way of knowing if a dog is a carrier without doing the testing and what most breeders are doing at the moment pretty much amounts to playing Russian roulette with their matings.
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Ah I gets ya thanks Rachel/Nic/Helen was totally loosing the plot. Yep like you say in an ideal world.....I hate to think what Fenn may have...she has come from good stock as they say but how good health wise....she may be lucky and have parents that were clear or indeed one that was....definitely want to have Fenn done now and will be happy to give the breeders the results...thanks huns....is amazing how much knowledge I feel I have now when we do eventually add to the brood....
Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six :o, he is definitely not a proven gundog and like Fenn has come from parents with no health tests....but the keeper liked the look of him ::) I think getting keepers on side is going to prove very tricky.....unfortunately.....getting them to go on forums such as this.....well if OH is anything to go by thats another topic all together!
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Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six :o,
Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog :( Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders :o
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Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six :o,
Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog :( Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders :o
My thoughts too Jane - especially as he's not even a proven dog and it's just because he looks 'nice'.
I find it extraordinary and another example of poor breeding ethics :-\
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Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six :o,
Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog :( Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders :o
My thoughts too Jane - especially as he's not even a proven dog and it's just because he looks 'nice'.
I find it extraordinary and another example of poor breeding ethics :-\
God I missed that bit earlier. With some of the idiots who seem to be getting into working cockers now it's sadly not totally shocking, I was approached by lord knows how many people at game fairs last year asking to use Alfie as a stud and they knew nothing about him at all, they just liked the look of him and saw that he's a flashy colour which Kirsten was saying to me last week seems to be the latest one to be 'in vogue' amongst certain types of puppy buyers ::)
The mind boggles at the thought process of anyone who wants to use an unproven, untested dog as a stud to 6 bitches, does he realise that's potentially over 40 puppies he could end up with?! Or maybe he just rubs his hands together thinking of the money for these 'ideal pets and working dogs' as the ads seem to go these days >:( Ohhhh it makes me so MAD!!
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It doesn't surprise me at all, most keepers don't exactly earn a fortune so breeding their dogs and selling the puppy is a valuable income to them and testing is not even a topic that comes up with the ones that I know. Some are slowly coming round to testing but when the majority of owners won't do it I suppose you can't expect them to either. I think if this was something taken on by NOBs, BASC, NGO or the like it might become a little more acceptable but as none of these groups are interested at present I can't see it taking off other than slowly through more open minded breeder/owners.
I'd still like to see a list of the dogs that are tested so that those who have had theirs done can choose carefully from the list for breeding purposes.
Jane your right I think Antegene had only just taken over the licence I'm glad that things have improved. :D
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Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog :( Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders :o
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I don't think this keeper has breed before but came from another area (around 40 miles away) and from the sounds of things he was a keeper with his father on an estate somewhere (I overheard the conversation during beating over christmas)....but yep I totally agree its the naivety of it all really; going into something that they have no idea about...loads of people have asked if we will breed from Fenn, and like you Nic this happens a lot at gamefairs because yes she is very pretty, well behaved and small, which a lot of the men are interested by but not once ask about health only what lines she has in her pedigree...most the time not even that.
To be honest and I will probably be told off, we had it in mind that we MAY of breed from Fenn when she was about three; she was coming on nicely, steady in temprement, good worker and we thought see how she goes, OH wanted to see about trialing her ect ect.....but after reading all on here, plus all the problems she has gone through, it wouldn't be fair and the thought of loosing her if things went wrong,through in a sense, our own selfishness i guess for wanting to keep a bit of her when she goes too (if thats sounds silly), is again not fair. I'm not saying that in the future if we had a cocker whom had proved she was a good gundog, good temperament and paramount tested well for all health conditions, that I had the time, money, research and knowledge, was prepared for everything, I wouldn't consider it but realistically that ain't never gonna happen...but that in part is because I care and take the time to come on forums like this because I care about this breed (am besotted with it) and want to do the best for my dog....i think it is such a shame that anybody can by a dog and basically do what they like with it, even without any bad intentions as such just don't know any better....sorry I'll get off my soap box ph34r
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I've just read a small article taht came from shooting UK. The question was 'How do I go about getting a litter from my working stock spaniel?'
The answer mentioned nothing about testing not thinking about the risks. Ok so it was a small answer but a few lines?
I think it sums up how the morking world often approach the issue of breeding and it's perpetuated by the fact that when people ask questions the 'experts' don't mention it :-\
In fact they mane it sound like a walk in the park http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/124101/How_do_I_breed_a_litter_of_puppies.html
Also, I called up breezybrook Gun dogs about potential litters today. They have 4 in March from one of theirs however the good news is he is eye tested clear. They said it's not something they do but a lady that wanted him for stud wanted him tested and paid for it.
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::) That says it all really dosen't it that in order to know a dog is clear you have to pay for it yourself....now Breezybrooks will love the fact that they can now say their stud dog has been tested clear and will make there stud even more useable...bad really isn't it....but in another way good to know that there is another stud dog which won't be passing the diease. :D
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but in another way good to know that there is another stud dog which won't be passing the diease. :D
It doesn't mean that at all though unless the stud dog has been Optigen tested ;) A clear eye test only means the dog was unaffected at the time he was tested, he could still be a carrier or even affected at a later date.
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Yes your right,sorry for some reason thought it was Optigen - so again then another red herring you could say?
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Not really a red herring as eye testing is better than nothing at all & will also check for conditions not covered by the Optigen test so it's still worth doing.
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Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six :o,
Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog :( Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders :o
My thoughts too Jane - especially as he's not even a proven dog and it's just because he looks 'nice'.
I find it extraordinary and another example of poor breeding ethics :-\
Not at all surprised..it is whats going on. ;)
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The lady at Breezybrook didn't volunteer the info, it wan't untill \i asked and she still did say the same old ' Working cockers aren't affected' but then I suppose since she has more than one stud she wouldn't want to make too big of a deal out of it.
I still appreciate that whoever had him tested did so, hopefully she had her bitch fully tested. I wonder if she requested the other tests too but they didn't want him knocked out etc
What is the cost of full testing, all the tests one would need to confidently breed?
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hip scoring can vary dependant upon who you go to and where you live (mine was under £100 though and she was absolutely fantastic) tops I heard have been £400.
Optigen you can get discounts on if you go to the clinics and do more than one dog at a time but that was quite a bit over £100. The FN testing at antagene is 95 euros (approx £72) plus the costs of the vets to take the bloods or swabs and postage.
General eye tests you can have done again at one of the clinics which reduces the costs again but the gonioscopy costs more and is the basic requirement.
I'd set aside at least £500 to cover all the tests you probably won't spend that much if you shop around a little bit but its worth having the tiny margin.
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I think any dog should be health tested that is going to be bred and gone over with a fine tooth comb before its ever considered to be :D
I certainly know that all my labs parents have been tested in all aspects and think that spaniels should be also. :D
I do not know why cockers arent done as I know its certainly not from the lack of cash in having them done :-\
Whats the way forward in this :-\ Or is it a case of wait till something goes wrong and then worry about it :-\
I dont think sweepies parents were done but not 100% sure :-\ But I know that in my situation in getting her it wasnt an issue, but if I had been actively looking for a cocker pup now, I wouldnt touch one with a barge pole who's parents were not tested. :D
Health testing although ext important, but is not just the bee all and end all, for example, Otter who comes from tested parents, is an abs worry for me, as he is a big boned dog, vey active and likes to jump up, run around. I have to be so careful with him not to put a strain on his joints in his daily activities, as I could be a factor in injuring him, I have now resulted in wrapping him in cotton wool so as to protect him from knocks, running and jumping as I do not wish to end up with him damaging himself. I think health testing along with careful exercise, a good diet is good, but how to convince those less concerned I really just dont know :-\
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I had been actively looking for a cocker pup now, I wouldnt touch one with a barge pole who's parents were not tested. :D
You'ld have a seriously long wait/search as I am finding!! But this raises the point that if one found a working cocker that was tested but without proven lines etc, just the sire and dam available to see, over an untested pup from a long list of proven workers but fairly unknown health then what would one do?
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I had been actively looking for a cocker pup now, I wouldnt touch one with a barge pole who's parents were not tested. :D
You'ld have a seriously long wait/search as I am finding!! But this raises the point that if one found a working cocker that was tested but without proven lines etc, just the sire and dam available to see, over an untested pup from a long list of proven workers but fairly unknown health then what would one do?
So it appears which is sad :'( and is why ill never have another working cocker (although that not being the only reason) till sweepie is no longer here, maybe by then folk will have given themselves a shake :-\ But then I also fear like I said with Otter is there a 100% guarantee that the dog you get from tested parents wont have or get a health problem :-\ So difficult and a worry :-\
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well the option still is a supply and demand issue isn't it???
If more people ask about testing and request a pup from tested parents then we might have better luck at the main breeders supplying the demand. There are some breeders that are doing the tests and ok they might not be the biggies but its got to be a start hasn't it.
I know when I had Ayla done there was a lot of umming and ahhing from the breeders behind her line BUT the two I approached were fantastic and prehaps having the knowledge that ones clear within their lines will encourage more interest. Alot of the owners of good stud dogs have a list of bitch owners who have used there dogs expecting puppies so if you make a request asking specifically for the recommendation of a tested bitch and are prepared to wait the time it takes to get one then it might encourage them a little more. Offering to pay for the test knowing that it doesn't need to be published might also be an incentive.
You could also look at the dogs off spring that have been tested to give an indication. If one of them has a clear result and not a carrier result then you know the parents must also have been either clear or one a carrier etc bit of a guess but a more educated one prehaps.
I would really have like to have been able to test my dogs parents but that opportunity will never arise now as both dogs have either been rehomed or have an uncertain future.
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Offering to pay for the test knowing that it doesn't need to be published might also be an incentive.
You could also look at the dogs off spring that have been tested to give an indication. If one of them has a clear result and not a carrier result then you know the parents must also have been either clear or one a carrier etc bit of a guess but a more educated one prehaps.
But if there is no published list then where would one get information on tested offspring? While looking for Wherry and now in the last about 5 months looking again I must have contacted well over 30 breeders and the closest I have found to testing is that one breezybrook with the current clear eye certificate? :huh:
It's litterally a mine field.
ETA: Ary there any statistics Tasha on how Workers are affected by the types of diseses that can be tested for, or any there any cases on here or elsewhere that I could see? I mean, how likely is it that a W.Cocker will develop these problems?
(I hope that doesn't come across written down as sarcy or confrontational, i mean it genuinely ;) )
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Coco - If you look hard enough, you will find breeders that both Optigen test AND hip score their breeding stock.
but as Tasha says it is supply and demand, if more people demanded AND didnt buy from breeders with untested stock, then the message might get through.
With regard to Optigen, I think it is safe to say that as long as one parent is clear, then the pups will never be affected with that form of pra, but there is of course CPRA which there is no dna test for yet. Nothing is guaranteed with hips, so much depends on how you raise the pup, feeding etc as well as its genetic predisposition to it. But on the other hand, if a breeder has bothered to hip score their dogs, it is likely that they are very aware of alll the ifs and buts and will take great care both in riasing their pups and in supplying information and aftercare to ensure the owners know they have an important part to play in minimising any joint damage while pup is still growing.
I have already put the OPtigen stats that I know of earlier on the post. I dont think its fair to list the dogs by name as with Optigen not being a KC scheme, the info is only in the public domain if the owners so chose. I dont and wont seek permission to list them.
with the KC schemes = the eyes and hips, the info is published every quarter in the breeds records supplement. If you wish a list of all dogs that have been through the eye and hip scheme, you can request through the KC information services, a CD with all info to date for a fee. You hve to sgn a disclaimer that you will not reproduce this information witout permission or use for commercial gain.
HTH
K
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Coco - If you look hard enough, you will find breeders that both Optigen test AND hip score their breeding stock.
but as Tasha says it is supply and demand, if more people demanded AND didnt buy from breeders with untested stock, then the message might get through.
If you wish a list of all dogs that have been through the eye and hip scheme, you can request through the KC information services, a CD with all info to date for a fee.
Could I ask you a big favour to PM me any that you know of, particularly any a little more southern. The only one I've come across so far is you! ;) I have only spoken to people that I have found through recommendation, well known 'reputable' breeders or via the internet based on kennels that I have knowledge of through trail literature.
Also, re: the KC list, how much would one expect to pay for this?
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I paid £14 for my weim info but there is alot more to cockers so i'd expect it to be a bit more than than its worth it though and if you do buy the disc I'd be happy to buy it from you at a later date as I'll be looking to purchase it at some point for my database.
Personally I'd join NOBs and make a request on there they are a nice bunch and several of the members have gone down the optigen testing path with their dogs. You could also look at the lab breeders who've got optigen tested stock that also do cockers and see if they would be prepared to help you.