CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Mel on January 08, 2012, 09:20:49 AM
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I am really struggling with this now as I do not like to use excessive chemicals on Tali.
My problem is that Advocate treats but does not prevent only one type of Lungworm. And the frequency of administration is such that most dogs are getting this monthly even if they do not need it.
Panacur treats three types of Lungworm.
Nothing actually prevents it only kills it after infestation. OH has opposing opinion on this as Berti suffered severe Lungworm issues. However Berti was treated with high dose Panacur then monthly spot on with Advocate but it was never determined which strain of Lungworm he had and as Panacur kills 3 types the Advocate could have been administered for no reason.
I have also found out that the main chemical ingredient in Advocate is being blamed by French beekeepers for the demise of the honey bee population.
My OH is against over vaccination but has very rigid views on Advocate which I can understand but ultimately it was the Panacur that actually saved Berti's life.
Anyone have any thoughts on all this?
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;) sounds to me like you ave already made your mind up from reading your post....
After having my boxer start fitting then die from acute blood haemorrhage with lungworms being the suspect til proven not so from her post Morton I always use advocate. I live in an area where my vet has treated numerous lungworm cases (proven by tracheal washes) so I will never ever run that risk of going through that again....for me it is also peace of mind.
I don't wish to sound rude but this is something I'm very passionate about and I do respect everyone else's thoughts too
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No you are not rude and this is the struggle I have as I don't want Tali to get Lungworm but these are harsh chemicals which could in years to come prove to have caused no end of issues. Afterall this then makes more profit for vets and medicine manufacturers too.
I know I am cynical.
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I was under the impression that Advocate was the only drug licensed as a preventative treatment, with Panacur being the preferred method of actually treating a confirmed infection. :huh:
I know Milbemax, if given monthly, gives "some" protection, but it isn't licensed for this.
I have had to go with taking my chances with Lungworm... we did try Advocate for 3 months, as there were several confirmed cases of Lungworm in the local area... but Honey was getting very itchy at the application site, and the reaction was intensifying each time, which was concerning... :-\
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I was under the impression that Advocate was the only drug licensed as a preventative treatment, with Panacur being the preferred method of actually treating a confirmed infection. :huh:
I know Milbemax, if given monthly, gives "some" protection, but it isn't licensed for this.
This is almost EXACTLY what I have been told by my vet after lengthy discussions bordering on arguments. I use Milbemax every 3 months which my vet says will PREVENT lungworm, even though the packet says it only reduces level of infestation. I hate using any wormer but Toby is still a little sod for mouthing at snails and we have loads of the damn things in the garden. I have never used a topical flea preventative. I just keep checking his skin and coat (hard with a black) and hoping for the best. I have to take my vets word for it as far as lungworm is concerned as I really don't want to start using Advocate, or any other topical applicaton. It's a real pain in the ar*e trying to do the best for your dog as you hear so many conflicting stories. I was interested to know what my vet uses on his dog (cocker) which is Milbemax and Stronghold. Using these two combined, the only protection not offered (according to him) is against ticks but he says we have low levels of ticks in this area, apparently. So Mel, like you, I am at loggerheads, confused and very cynical towards vets and also terrified that Toby will get lungworm despite using an application that the vet insists is a preventative!
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Just spoke to my vets. Anna was out but a nurse tried telling me Advocate prevents lungworm. When I pointed out the packet states "treatment for.." lungworm the reply was "well if you use it every 4 weeks it will prevent it. When I asked how I was told that if the dog contracted lungworm would be killed. So I reiterated that it treats it then. She just said "prevents".
Apparently the incidences of lungworm in the area has dropped dramatically which is allegedly all down to the Advocate.
No mention of Milbemax. Panacure can only cure not prevent allegedly.
Had no idea about the different types of lungworm so just drifted over that without an answer.
The fact I get scant or no answers to certain things makes me.feel they know what I am saying is true and they just don't want to admit it.
Still not convinced.
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I'm watching this thread as I use avocate.
However if there is something out there that is better I'll use that.
My one problem with avocate is it's in liquid format which means parting all of my pups hair (he has a lot of it) so it's quite hard to make sure the whole thing goes on. Tablet form would work better for him :).
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My Mum took Lexi to the vets yesterday and asked his opinion on it for me. Panacur is only any good for treating a confirmed case. Milbemax is only given every three months and He said in that time if it wan't successful then the cycle of the lung worm would be quite far along so wasn't happy with this. He said Advocate really is the only thing to prevent. Just stocked up on 12 pipettes for £66 which will only last 4 months now. I don't like using it either, in stinks gets everywhere and is really hard to apply, but he had a dog that died of lung worm recently so I am not prepared to risk it!
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My Mum took Lexi to the vets yesterday and asked his opinion on it for me. Panacur is only any good for treating a confirmed case. Milbemax is only given every three months and He said in that time if it wan't successful then the cycle of the lung worm would be quite far along so wasn't happy with this. He said Advocate really is the only thing to prevent. Just stocked up on 12 pipettes for £66 which will only last 4 months now. I don't like using it either, in stinks gets everywhere and is really hard to apply, but he had a dog that died of lung worm recently so I am not prepared to risk it!
Oh yes I forgot about the stink (it's worming this week for us). I also noticed his breath stinking of it for a few days afterwards as well...I don't mind doggy breath but I DO mind avocate doggy breath!
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Ok my research is throwing up some very inconsistent things.One thing I keep reading is how perfectly safe Advocate is. One site even claimed it was non-carcinogenic or non-cancer forming but this was not the official Bayer site.
Ok let's go through this and hope its not too complicated.
First off, Anglostrongylus vasorum or the French Heartworm is one of 4 main lungworms that can infect your dog.
Advocate contains moxidectrin and imidacloprid the first can be fatal and indeed cause poisoning and neurological issues if ingested and the latter is highly toxic to honey bees and mildly toxic to some birds. Imidacloprid is a pesticide and is used crops. However its use has been suspended in France and several other EU countries due to its effect upon honey bees and other wildlife.
Another name for moxidectrin is Ivermectin.
Panacur has the active ingredient Fenbendazole. The only usage I can find is as a dewormer. It has shown toxicity when ingested by certain birds and reptiles. I can find no toxicity evidence reported for cats.or dogs.
Milbemax is Mibemycin oxide and Prazquantril. The latter is a wormer and is also known as Drontal or Droncit amongst other names. This wormer has a 90% incidence of causing diarrhea and/or vomiting after being ingested. High doses can cause increased symptoms.
Milbemycin oxide is tolerated well by dogs even those with multiple drug resistance.
Interceptor is a Milbemycin oxime only preparation and only available in the USA.
The four types of lungworm are:
1) Anglostrogylus vasorum or French Heartworm
2) Oslerus osleri
3) Filaroides birth
4) Crenosoma vulpis
Noah's compendium states that:
ADVOCATE: only treats 1 & 4
PANACUR: only treats 2
MILBEMAX: reduces level of infection in 1 & 4
However the Merck Veterinary handbook srates that Fenbendazole treats lungworms 1, 2 & 4 and also protects against Giardia.
Now this is where it is complicated. Panacur is Fenbendazole. Intavets website who manufacture Panacur say it only treats the infestation of Oslerus osleri. If this is so then it is of no use against Anglostrongylus vasorum so why is this used in high doses to treat it if the manufacturer and Noah's both state it won't treat the lungworm that Advocate prevents?
Mercks state Fenbendazole will treat the lungworms listed 1, 2 & 4 so they believe it can treat the lungworm treated by Advocate.
So why does Panacur not state this on their packaging?
Now, quandary number 2 is that Merck state and I quote "Another option for prevention of canine A. vasorum is mibemycin oxime ...."
in other words Milbemax. However as it also contains Praziquantel which is a wormer it would be safer to treat with a Mibemycin only formula which is Interceptor but that's only available in the US.Milbemax manufacturers also only state that it "reduces the level of infestation of A. vasorum".
Furthermore, A. vasorum has a pre patent period of 40-49 days. This means symptoms will not show until 40-49 days after infestation. So technically a dog could and I make no claims to this, could be treated every 5 weeks with Advocate and still be within the pre patent period. As I am not a vet I don't suggest you do this. This information is only for reference.
It also means one could technically treat with the appropriate dose of Panacur or Milbemax within the pre patent period.
The most worrying thing about Advocate is that it attacks the central nervous system of the parasite. There are no publicly published studies that I can find which show the long term effects on the central nervous system of dogs routinely treated monthly over a life span.
I know Advocate affected the medicine used to stimulate the nerves in Tali's eye by suppressing the nerve. This was unscientific but the opthamologist concurred with the information I found out and suggested using Milbemax for lungworm prevention.
I hope I have made this easy to follow. Although Advocate is stated as a treatment and cure, Milbemax according to Merck is a.preventative and Fenbendazole or Panacur covers more types of lungworm.
Sorry this is long and sorry for spelling or grammar as I am typing know the phone.
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Firstly well done for typing all of that on your phone.
Secondly that is very informative. However now I'm in a quandry at what is the best thing so use...
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Sorry also forgot that Advocate unlike Panacur or Milbemax is absorbed into the blood stream of the dog. Also as a spot on the preservation rubs off of the dogs fur onto hands, clothing, etc.
Also if you have more than one dog and one of the dogs licks the Advocate application site the dog can get serious neurological issues and sickness.
There is also increasing discussion that the lungworm cannot be passed on via slime and needs a host to travel in.
The information is actually pretty scant and very contradictory.
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And its 3) Filaroides hirth not birth lol.
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I rather suspect its all to do with the licensing/red tape of these products mel
some of the ingredients probably are active against certain parasites but unless they have obtained the complete license they cannot state so :dunno:
this uncertainty carries right through the veterinary products/meds >:D
it is indeed rather frustrating when you are only trying to do the very best for your pet!
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It also means one could technically treat with the appropriate dose of Panacur or Milbemax within the pre patent period.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to research and post your findings. Regarding the above, I'm reading this that Milbemax could be given every 6-8 weeks as opposed to once a month? The problem I have with this is my vet will only prescribe it every 3 months, in which case, according to your findings, renders it pretty useless. What a minefield and it seems the more we look for answers, the more frightened and confused we become.
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I still haven't actually spoken with my vet as she hasn't rung back.....again.
Please be aware all the lungworm websites and literature are produced by Bayer, the manufacturer of Advocate!
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Anna has just rung. Long and short is that Milbemax has just been licenced to prevent lungworm. Although Panacur does cure and treat there is no licence yet granted for prevention.
I will try this and use Billy No Mates for fleas and ticks which worked for Tali last summer.
She has no issues with Advocate but also said she had no issues with Milbemax either.
Some progress then :D
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Thanks for letting us know. I'm "happy" to carry on with Milbemax then but won't be using any spot on preventatives. Mel, would you recommend Billy No Mates - did it work OK for you?
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I just wanted to say thankyou Mel for all this information.
I've had Jess on Advocate for a while, on our vet's advice - we do dislike the way it smells and we have also been worried about contact after she's had it applied, because Jess tends to sneak onto/into our bed once we are asleep. So it is very useful to know that Milbemax is now licensed to prevent lungworm, and we now have an alternative.
By the way we've had Jess on BNM since she was little - she's 20 months old now - and we have yet to see a single tick on her. No fleas or anything else, either.
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As for BNM it worked for us. You could also add garlic to your dog's diet.
Glad the information has helped. It helped me talk to Anna and not look stupid and I hope she took me a bit more seriously for it.
Just wanted to protect my little man.
Please remember to keep reading stuff and asking questions though. Milbemax is still a chemical and any chemical can have long term adverse effects.
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I use moxidectrin/Ivermectin on my aviary birds.
I feel a bit confused now as i advocate every month ,,but occasionally go a bit longer.
I worm every 6 months,but now will think about the milbemax and BNM instead :-\
How can i find out how prevalent lungworm is in my area.......
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Do you know how often Milbemax needs to be given under its licence? I will definately be in touch with our vets... we only occassionally worm (when we remember) but given that Lungworm is fairly prevelent in this area, I would be prepared to give more frequently... :D
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I was under the impression that Advocate was the only drug licensed as a preventative treatment, with Panacur being the preferred method of actually treating a confirmed infection. :huh:
I know Milbemax, if given monthly, gives "some" protection, but it isn't licensed for this.
I have had to go with taking my chances with Lungworm... we did try Advocate for 3 months, as there were several confirmed cases of Lungworm in the local area... but Honey was getting very itchy at the application site, and the reaction was intensifying each time, which was concerning... :-\
This is, as I still understand, the best way to prevent lungworm. After nearly loosing Purdey to lungworm a few years ago, I would rather treat (more often in summer but not always monthly - less through the winter months) by appropriate products - her life has possibly already been shortened by the damage done to her heart & lungs, so take a chance with the medication TBH.
Lungworm is rife in our area, with new & unusual symptoms appearing all the time. Through my experience with Purdey, if you ask any number of vets their opinion or advice they would all vary in some way or another, with some still handing out incorrect advice - my vet seems pretty spot on with it all now & has taken part in a national survey investigating lungworm & the variation & differences in symptoms being presented.
The specialist advice at the time was that Lungworm was & still is a fairly new condition & vets are learning about it all the time - due to where we live, Purdey being a skillful scavenger & her not having any recurrence of the condition, is proof enough for me that the method I am using works, so choose to stick with it .........unless vets learn of a safer alternative or a way to eradicate the blighters >:D
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My vet said every month. A little more often than I would like but as she was upfront with me I have no reason to disbelieve her. But please ask your vets.
Advocate and Milbemax seem to only be effective as monthly treatments. I would hope this may bring about the release of Inceptor so you are not worming generally every month.
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I've never heard of Interceptor. What is it exactly :huh:
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Its the Milbemycin oxime which is the ingredient in Milbemax that prevents lungworm and treats it. It is made by the same people who make Milbemax but its only on sale in the US at this time.
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OK, so is this given less frequently than once a month? (thanks)
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I believe Interceptor is given every month as can Milbemax be. However with Milbemax you are generally worming as well every month and it may be less harsh to Milbemax every third month and use Interceptor in the intervening months. But as it is a US only drug I don't think it would be a good idea to recommend using it as it has no licence here.
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Lindsey, it is your experience with Purdey that makes me revisit my decision not to use Advocate every time we use Frontline or Worm or whenever Lungworm is discussed.... unfortunately in the face of an obviously increasing reaction to Advocate, I didn't really have much choice...
The news that Milbemax has now been licenced is good for me, as I would definately give a monthly dose of Milbemax a shot, as Honey has had no reaction at all to the Milbemax.... now just to discover whether the vets are willing to issue it monthly...
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I too feel like Karma when hearing about Purdey and knowing about Berti's lungworm. Hence why I have done research into what I am happier using.
In my research though Linds I have found that Advocate "should" be given every 4 weeks to be an effective prevention for lungworm. Anna was most insistent that Milbemax must be every month too.
The thing with all this, is that we all love our dogs and want them to be safe. I personally have never liked Advocate and was loathed to give it. I have posted many times about it.
All I can say to everyone is read what I have found out and make your own decisions and do your own research and find a product which best suits your needs and you feel comfortable using. Let's hope Panacur also gets licence and gives us all more choice.
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Just wondering - what sort of reactions to Advocate have people been seeing?
This month Jess was distinctly off colour for about a day and a half after we put it on, noticeably sleepy and not quite herself. Over the last 6 months we've thought there seemed to be a bit of a effect on her but not been certain, this month there's been no doubt.
There is lungworm around here and also we travel around on our narrowboat in the summer so we go through lots of places where it is even worse than here - also Jess thinks that snails are a tasty snack, and keeps picking up slugs and bringing them indoors, yuk.
She's due for a 'wellness check' at the vets soon, we will talk it all over with them but was just wondering what other people's experience has been.
Very much agree, it is a good thingthat we now have a choice of meds available.
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Just a little note for anyone who may be thinking of using Milbemax. If you have difficulty administering a tablet to your dog, Milbemax is also available in a chewable "treat" form which is more palatable for the dog.
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Just wondering - what sort of reactions to Advocate have people been seeing?
On the first dose, she was itchy for about 1/2 hr after application, so didn't think much of it.
Second dose, she was itcing the application site on and off for the rest of the day, and seemed a little off colour.
By the third dose I was watching for the effects, and she was definately subdued, and the itching lasted 3 days (on and off) - initially this was very frantic itching, and it eased off over the first few hrs.
If it had remained as just a small amount of itching I would probably have continued using it, but it was the substantially increasing reaction that really concerned me.
I also know that a lot of Collie owners won't touch Advocate, as Collies are known to be susceptable to a genetic quirk that can make something in Advocate fatal to them - I don't know the details, but I'm sure there are a lot of Collie owners who are going to be very pleased to hear that Milbemax has now been licenced. :D
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Itching, hmmm - she does scratch a bit after the stuff goes on, but that doesn't seem to be a big deal and doesn't last more than a couple of hours. We'll keep an eye on it.
And yes, I had heard that about collies - my sister has a border collie - the new product licence is excellent news for them. :D
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Not quite true. Milbemax has to be used with extreme care in collies. Like Invermectin Milbemycin oxime also attacks the parasites in a similar way. I believe that collies with the defective genes can get reactions to both Milbemax and Advocate. So I wonder how they stop collies getting lungworm? Panacur perhaps?????
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Head now spining !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Not quite true. Milbemax has to be used with extreme care in collies. Like Invermectin Milbemycin oxime also attacks the parasites in a similar way. I believe that collies with the defective genes can get reactions to both Milbemax and Advocate. So I wonder how they stop collies getting lungworm? Panacur perhaps?????
The Collie owners I know were happy to give Milbemax... :huh:
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I have been reading this thread with interest as I too don't like advocate. It makes max itchy and didn't work when he had mange. I had to swap to stronghold which worked brilliantly. However once max was better the vet wanted me to switch back to advocate as max is partial to the odd snail.
Just been to vets to confirm about milbemax. Yes great news I can use it for all worms but they recommend using advantage for fleas etc so that I don't double up on worm treatments. I don't know anything about this product other than it made by same people as advocate which worries me. Will start searching on web before I decide just wondered if anyone has used it?
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Picked up Tali's Milbemax today and the label the vets printed says "1 x tablet monthly to prevent lungworm." Don't think they would do this unless it were true. Apparently Anna rang the manufacturers to be 100%sure of the dosage.
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Just a quick update. I waited til today to give Tali the Milbemax incase he had a reaction over the weekend. Good news seems to be that he seems to have tolerated it well. Hope now he is protected and I can feel like I have done something positive to help him with bloomin' lungworm.
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Just a quick update. I waited til today to give Tali the Milbemax incase he had a reaction over the weekend. Good news seems to be that he seems to have tolerated it well. Hope now he is protected and I can feel like I have done something positive to help him with bloomin' lungworm.
thanks for all the work you put in to finding out this info Mel - will be chatting to my vet & hoping he has all the correct up to date advice next time we go - would be good to have some choice about what medicines we can use for Lungworm ;)
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Thanks for researching all of this Mel. I too have been confused by it all. Dexter is a horror for picking up snails and when I went to my vet it was a locum who had no idea if this was a lungworm area. She also told me I could give the little man Milbemax and Advocate together, which I was not keen on so spaced it two weeks apart (thanks to the advice of COL).
I do worry about the Advocate, I find it difficult to apply, it stinks and I try to do it when the boys have settled down in the evening so they don't lick each other. I would much prefer a tablet, but was told he had to have Advocate (to prevent lungworm) and Milbemax (to prevent tapeworm). I've got to take them to the vets for health checks soon so am going to book in with my usual vet and ask her :huh:
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Not quite true. Milbemax has to be used with extreme care in collies. Like Invermectin Milbemycin oxime also attacks the parasites in a similar way. I believe that collies with the defective genes can get reactions to both Milbemax and Advocate. So I wonder how they stop collies getting lungworm? Panacur perhaps?????
The Collie owners I know were happy to give Milbemax... :huh:
Sorry Karma forgot to answer you my dear. The important words I used were "with extreme care". Because of the defective gene they can but not always, have sensitivity to Milbemax too. I have been looking on Collie forums and it appears rough collies are more likely to have reactions than others.
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If you are using Milbemax now for worms and lungworm what have you chosen to use for fleas etc. Would love to stop using advocate but not sure if stronghold and milbemax is overdosing on the worm treatment. A vet said to use advantage but that does not cover mange and Max had this and needs something that covers this too! Guess I need to ask my regular vets advice but they try and push advocate!
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If you are using Milbemax now for worms and lungworm what have you chosen to use for fleas etc. Would love to stop using advocate but not sure if stronghold and milbemax is overdosing on the worm treatment. A vet said to use advantage but that does not cover mange and Max had this and needs something that covers this too! Guess I need to ask my regular vets advice but they try and push advocate!
Why don't you try a natural preventative. I'm going to give Billy No Mates a try this year and see how we go. If you google, there are loads of natural products available.
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Like the idea of a natural remedy but after seeing Max with mange I want something that covers it as it is common round where we live.
Finally got to see my usual vet today who rang the milbemax manufacturers for me to check how often i should use it if I want it to prevent lungworm. They said that it isn't actually licensed to prevent lungworm yet although it will be it is just a matter of all the paperwork/redtape and they will have an official licence later in the year. That said my vet was told she is able to recommend I use it on a monthly basis to cover lungworm due to some vets code?? and that I can use alongside stronghold if I give them 2 weeks apart.
I will be going down this route due to Max's history with mange- thanks for this thread if it hadn't been for COL it would of been advocate tonight and itching for the next few days!!!
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My vet has just told me that we need to use Milbemax one tablet every three months for worms and for lungworm prevention and Frontline Combo every eight weeks for fleas. I think she's got that wrong regarding the Milbemax, I shall have to see if I can persuade her to contact the manufacturers to check.
We haven't come across Frontline Combo before. I notice people talking about Stronghold, haven't come across this one either. Alternative is Billy No Mates, which seems to do the trick as far as ticks etc, as we haven't seen any.
Any thoughts?
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If Billy No Mates works for your dog then stick with it. It is natural. Never heard of Frontline Combo and know nothing about it, sorry.
@max2011: That's odd your vet says that and my vet says it has already got the licence. Anyhow not to worry because it is being prescribed for lungworm prevention which I guess couldn't be done if the licence wasn't applied.
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Hi Mel, agree it is a bit wierd that the vets differ in what they are saying but the main thing is mine was happy to prescribe it due to the 'cascade system' and yours due to them being told it is licenced. Would be interesting to hear what other vets are saying.
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What a mine field. Lots of people buying wormers etc online now have I believe made vets change to the prescription only wormers and flea treatments e. g. Frontline Combo.
I feel that not all vets keep up to date with the mass of new treatments and many think that most things are solved by giving chemicals. They do work but at what cost?
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I thought i would resurrect this thread to see how many more of you are using Milbemax instead of Advocate and are any more of you being told by your vets that milbemax has def been licensed to prevent lungworm and are they prescribing it monthly for you?
I have one other question,does Milbemax prevent sarcoptic mange and earmites like Advocate does.
;)
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I can only answer the bit about being licensed. I asked at my vets last month whether it had and was told no... the only thing licensed was advocate :( And can't find anything on the milbemax website to suggest its licensed either....
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I can only answer the bit about being licensed. I asked at my vets last month whether it had and was told no... the only thing licensed was advocate :( And can't find anything on the milbemax website to suggest its licensed either....
That is where i have just been doing some reading,and all this time on after this initial thread was started the Milbemax website is STILL saying "reduction in the level of lungworm" nothing about it being a preventative :huh:
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I am using milbemax monthly for lungworms and stronghold for mange . Milbemax is not yet officially licenced to prevent lungworm as they are going through the process however as it will be later this year my vet is allowed to prescribe it for this. I don't like giving max so many chemicals but he hadn't had any side effects and needs them as he eats snails and has had mange before.
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As far as I am aware, it is only Advocate that is licensed to prevent lungworm. Milbemax say reduces level of infestation. My vet only prescribes Milbemax every three months. So, Toby is Milbemaxed quarterly and Billy No Mated for fleas, ticks and mites. It seems this is the best I can do in an effort to limit his intake of pesticides and chemicals. I could "soak" him in the various pesticides and be confident that he would not become infested/infected but then I run the risk of causing damage from their constant use. It's a minefield and all we can do is what we honestly believe is the best for our dogs. If Milbemax are going to licence for prevention of lungworm then how much longer are they going to take do to it?
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If Milbemax are going to licence for prevention of lungworm then how much longer are they going to take do to it?
Exactly Mel i agree,and until i see it in black and white i don't feel any further forward :-\
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My vet is ok with Milbemax every month for lungworm, and as Jess was itching and getting listless and off colour with Advocate, we have dropped the Advocate and Drontal, switched to Milbemax. So far no ill effects whatsoever. She does need to be taking something as a preventative as she eats snails.
She's having Billy No Mates to repel boarders - fleas, ticks, mites, and so far we have not seen any of those little nasties at all. The vet wants me to use Frontline Combo, I am seeing how we go without it.
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If it helps Jasper has been on milbemax (with praquantril) and then milbemycin oxime DAILY for nearly a year now to treat his Demodedic mange and he has shown no side effects on either. We had to obtain a licence for the interceptor to be imported into the country for jasper and it is much more expensive than milbemax. A six month supply was £1300 > :o including the hefty fee CAmbridge put on.
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Not quite true. Milbemax has to be used with extreme care in collies. Like Invermectin Milbemycin oxime also attacks the parasites in a similar way. I believe that collies with the defective genes can get reactions to both Milbemax and Advocate. So I wonder how they stop collies getting lungworm? Panacur perhaps?????
The Collie owners I know were happy to give Milbemax... :huh:
Sorry Karma forgot to answer you my dear. The important words I used were "with extreme care". Because of the defective gene they can but not always, have sensitivity to Milbemax too. I have been looking on Collie forums and it appears rough collies are more likely to have reactions than others.
Its more of a problem, if the BC or other breeds carry the MDR-1 gene, makes them suspetable to seizures while using Milbemax.
But I dont think the MDR-1 gene mutation is very common with cockers .
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I'm a bit worried and confused now after reading that Milbemax is being prescribed monthly. My vet insists three monthly is adequate! I wonder why he is saying something different. :huh: :huh:
Also, we are going on holiday to Devon in a few weeks and I'm torn as to whether or not to use Frontline Combo as extra protection - just the one application - as my vet says fleas and ticks are rife in the West Country.
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.... as my vet says fleas and ticks are rife in the West Country.
Well if they are, then they don't seem to like BNM! - we haven't seen any on either of our cockers since we started using the stuff.
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I'm a bit worried and confused now after reading that Milbemax is being prescribed monthly. My vet insists three monthly is adequate! I wonder why he is saying something different. :huh: :huh:
Also, we are going on holiday to Devon in a few weeks and I'm torn as to whether or not to use Frontline Combo as extra protection - just the one application - as my vet says fleas and ticks are rife in the West Country.
It is for most types of worms but not as a prevention for 'Lungworm' ( the thread subject ;) ) There is still question over whether Milbemax is licensed or not to 'prevent ' lungworm, so I still opt for Advocate which is a prevention '& a cure', as I know Lungworm is rife in our area during spring/summer/ Autumn months.
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We just use the advocate, as its a good all rounder :embarassed:
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I am right in saying there is a new type of lungworm (untreatable) was told this by my dad and heard lungworm on the radio but missed what they were on about :huh:
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Well if they are, then they don't seem to like BNM! - we haven't seen any on either of our cockers since we started using the stuff.
That's good news!
I'm a bit worried and confused now after reading that Milbemax is being prescribed monthly. My vet insists three monthly is adequate! I wonder why he is saying something different. :huh: :huh:
It is for most types of worms but not as a prevention for 'Lungworm' ( the thread subject ;) ) There is still question over whether Milbemax is licensed or not to 'prevent ' lungworm, so I still opt for Advocate which is a prevention '& a cure', as I know Lungworm is rife in our area during spring/summer/ Autumn months.
I'm confused as to why some Members are saying their vets are prescribing Milbemax monthly as a prevention for lungworm (although we are aware it is not, as yet, licensed to do so) when my vet will only prescribe it three monthly, which seems to be standard procedure for the prevention of other infestations. I understand the thread subject, ;) but don't understand why vets seem to differ so much regarding something as important as this.
I am right in saying there is a new type of lungworm (untreatable) was told this by my dad and heard lungworm on the radio but missed what they were on about :huh:
I really hope not >:D
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Having been told by my vet that it is ok to use milbemax monthly for lungworm even though the licence hasn't gone through yet I have started worrying that I am doing the wrong thing as no-one else seems to have heard about this. Just googled it and found the following statement on a nw vets website:
Strictly speaking there is no 100% way of preventing infestation with the lungworm parasite. However, dogs wormed MONTHLY with Milbemax worming tablets have been shown to have approximately 85% reduction in infective larvae.
Normal worming advice for dogs would be to give Milbemax tablets monthly up to 6 months old, then every 3 months for life, but monthly worming is advised if there is any higher risk.
To reduce the risk of Lungworm we would advise Milbemax monthly up to 2 years old, then reducing to 3 monthly dosing.
Milbemax is a prescription wormer, which can be prescribed if the pet is under our care and has been seen by our vets in the previous 12 months.
It seems that others are recommending the same as my vet although would be happier if the % was higher!
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Thanks for researching and posting that information. It looks as though I will now have to ask my vet for a monthly prescription as it seems Toby's level of protection is even lower than 85% as he has been prescribed three monthly >:D
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We just use the advocate, as its a good all rounder :embarassed:
I would have stayed with Advocate if Jess hadn't started to react badly to it, I agree it is a good all rounder.
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We just use the advocate, as its a good all rounder :embarassed:
I would have stayed with Advocate if Jess hadn't started to react badly to it, I agree it is a good all rounder.
I hope Jess is ok and you managed to find a suitable alternative :luv:
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We just use the advocate, as its a good all rounder :embarassed:
I would have stayed with Advocate if Jess hadn't started to react badly to it, I agree it is a good all rounder.
I hope Jess is ok and you managed to find a suitable alternative :luv:
Yes she is fine thankyou :blink: - she had been fine with Advocate for a good while but started scratching after the application, and was distinctly off colour for a couple of days, it seemed to be getting worse. Now we are trying Milbemax once a month, with our vet's agreement. Two months in, and so far so good. Plus BNM too. :blink:
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My vet prescribed Milbemax monthly today (at last) but advised that Advocate is the best lungworm preventative at the moment.
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Tali is still on Milbemax once a month. No ill effects plus BNM for fleas and ticks.
There are a few strains of Lungworm which I may have touched on earlier in the thread which neither Milbemax nor Advocate touch. Best "cure" is still Panacur.
When I have 5 mins I will photo the script label for Tali's Milbemax just to show it is being used as a preventative to Lungworm.
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When I have 5 mins I will photo the script label for Tali's Milbemax just to show it is being used as a preventative to Lungworm.
The milbemax site still doesn't state anything about it being a preventative and i would feel happier when i see it in black and white from them.
I have just been reading on a gundog training forum and they are having exactly the same conversations there,everyone and their vets say/think two different things.
Tis such a worry to do the right thing :-\
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I guess I am just a sceptical person. Because all the literature about Lungworm is by Bayer who manufacture Advocate, I can't help feeling it is in their best interests to make people panic about Lungworm. I am not saying that Lungworm isn't serious, far from it, but using Advocate as a preventative is only going to help a little anyway. If a dog contracts Lungworm the only cure is Panacur.
Vets like GP's get drug companies pushing their products and offer Drs all sorts to take up the use of their product over a rival manufacturers. Vet drug companies are often the same as human drug companies and use the same tactics.
If it were just my vet saying use Milbemax as a preventative for Lungworm I would be concerned. However, there are others prescribing it too. My vet has put on the box "..for the prevention of Lungworm use monthly". If this were not the case she could be sued and possibly have some action taken by the BVA.
The vet manuals I have read and I think quoted all point to Panacur being the cure and Advocate and Milbemax being good preventatives.
At the end of the day Anna has no tangible reason to tell me the licence for Milbemax to be used as a preventative, has been granted if it hasn't. Just because the public haven't yet been told doesn't mean it isn't so.
She also knows I won't do Lepto jabs and I will titre the other jabs when the time comes. Her opinion is jabs are fine but she also accepts my findings and research that prevent me from re jabbing Tali every year. By this I am saying she isn't just a yes woman.
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If it were just my vet saying use Milbemax as a preventative for Lungworm I would be concerned. However, there are others prescribing it too. My vet has put on the box "..for the prevention of Lungworm use monthly". If this were not the case she could be sued and possibly have some action taken by the BVA.
I understand that Mel,but in the same turn,why wouldn't the Milbemax website change the wording so this would be common knowledge.
The vet manuals I have read and I think quoted all point to Panacur being the cure and Advocate and Milbemax being good preventatives.
Could you share these manuals with us? are they online? not that i disbelieve you but i would like to look at the information myself because as hard as i try i cannot find it written ANYWHERE that Milbemax is a preventative,time after time and site after site i look at the same thing is said "Advocate is the only licensed product to prevent against lungworm"
At the end of the day Anna has no tangible reason to tell me the licence for Milbemax to be used as a preventative, has been granted if it hasn't. Just because the public haven't yet been told doesn't mean it isn't so.
It just doesn't make good business sense though does it? which is odd. It seems very few vets know about this "new licensing",it would make the manufacturers lots of money to sell such large quantities to the vets to pass on monthly scripts to their clients but it seems knowledge of the licensing is shrouded in mystery.
You started your post by saying you are sceptical Mel,i am the same as you which is why i really need to see in black and white. :blink:
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There are a few things you can try.
First read this page
www.merialvetsite.com/sites/fields/FleaWormingTreatments1506.html
www.merkvetinarymanual.com
Then read my big post on the first page and Google every site and stuff I have mentioned and you can then cross reference everything and probably come to the same conclusion I did. It took me a long time.
I am still moving so can't spend time over it at the moment but all the information in that long post can be looked up on Google. Takes time but tells you the only cure for Lungworm the type we are worried about is Panacur.
Hope that is of some help hun.
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I have just spoken to one of the vet nurses at my practice and she said Milbemax has not been licensed to prevent lungworm :-\ but TBH,i would prefer to talk to the vet that i trust about it but she was in surgery,it will keep, i will contact them again.
Soooooo,meanwhile i have read through the whole thread again and i will look at the links you gave Mel (thanku ;) ) and make my head hurt a little bit more with info overload.
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To be honest my vet didn't know until she rang the manufacturers up and asked them the situation so may be worth asking your vet to contact them and find out. We were told it is in process of being licensed but due to a certain code of practice ( can't remember name) she is allowed to prescribe it. Would be interested to hear what the manufacturers would say to a vet now.
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The vets don't seem to be putting that much importance on the subject, well mine isn't - he is very matter of fact about the whole scenario. If THEY spoke with the manufacturers of Milbemax, I'm sure they would get a favourable response - i.e. the makers of Milbemax I'm sure would advise the veterinary profession if/when they are going to licence as a preventative. As for us, we are going around in circles still, at the mercy of the powers that be.
We have limited choices:
1. Advocate is licensed to prevent lungworm, so if you don't mind using these type of preventatives, this could be for you.
2. At the moment, we believe Milbemax offers a reduced amount of lungworm infestation if administered monthly (?), but we have no clue if it will ever be licensed to prevent lungworm, at least at the moment.
3. If a dog does become infected, then Panacur apparently treats a lungworm infestation.
So, I have opted for #2 in the hope my dog is getting some protection, as in view of the alternatives, this is the "best" choice, for me, at the moment.
Mel, thanks for the research you are doing, it is appreciated. I know you are doing your best to keep us informed but IMHO I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall at the moment. The more we try to find answers, the more confused we become. I'm totally disappointed with the veterinary profession and the drug manufacturers who just seem unable to provide us with the information we require in order to provide the best we can for our dogs.
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Tend to agree Neon.... I was at the vets again today and actually spoke to the vet direct about it. She basically said it can be used to prevent lungworm but that it would need a much more frequent dose than advocate because it won't stay in their system as long... but she said its not something milbemax will document because its not licensed for prevention. So... catch 22 :-\
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Mel, thanks for the research you are doing, it is appreciated. I know you are doing your best to keep us informed but IMHO I feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall at the moment. The more we try to find answers, the more confused we become. I'm totally disappointed with the veterinary profession and the drug manufacturers who just seem unable to provide us with the information we require in order to provide the best we can for our dogs.
I couldn't agree more with this.
Mel has put a lot into her research and has been good enough to share it with us ;)
For me,for now i'm still at this stage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/peterUK/giffs/mad0228.gif) as Mel (neon) describes.
but she said its not something milbemax will document because its not licensed for prevention.
And yet Mels' vet said the licence HAS been granted.No-one is on the same page,where's that roll eyes smiley.