Health testing Results

[Bryning]

Is there anywhere where cocker health testing results are compiled and made available for others to see?

I have had both mine (workers) hip scored and PRA tested with OptiGen, my bitch is a PRA carrier (bit dissapointed) but I'm concerned that one or both of her parents must obviously be carrier/affected and others breeding with those lines will be blissfully unaware.  I've e-mailed the owner of her sire several times since I got her and he's never replied once so I can't see him being very interested

[Jane S]

No unfortunately there's not one place where all health testing results can be found for Cockers. As you know, hip scores & clinical eye test results are published by the KC who will supply you with a report of all Cocker hipscores & eye test results (for a fee). Optigen test results are not included but they will be in the nearish future I understand. The Cocker Spaniel Club publishes some Optigen results in their annual Welfare booklet but it's a voluntary register so only those who want their results published submit them and it's been all show-type dogs listed so far.

[Phaedra]

Is there anywhere where cocker health testing results are compiled and made available for others to see?

I have had both mine (workers) hip scored and PRA tested with OptiGen, my bitch is a PRA carrier (bit dissapointed) but I'm concerned that one or both of her parents must obviously be carrier/affected and others breeding with those lines will be blissfully unaware.  I've e-mailed the owner of her sire several times since I got her and he's never replied once so I can't see him being very interested

Interesting - OptiGen has announced that the prcd-PRA test has NOT been evaluated on the working cocker population and therefore limits the test to show bred cockers:

"114. [FAQ] Can an English Cocker Spaniel from outside of North America be tested for prcd-PRA?
OptiGen limits prcd-PRA testing to SHOW-BRED LINES of English Cocker Spaniel. Comments from European veterinarians indicate that PRA in European English Cockers that are dark red to ginger in color seem to have an earlier onset form of the disease. These animals differ greatly in appearance and are probably more representative of what one might expect to see in a "field-bred" animal, or the "generic" backyard variety. Animals bred in this manner were not participants in the studies to develop this test. Until it can be established without doubt that the genetic basis of the disease is the same for all types of ECS and verify the prcd-PRA test for these other lines, OptiGen limits testing to ECS show-bred lines." Source: http://www.optigen.com/opt11_search.taf

I have no idea when this information was put up on the OptiGen web page - found it recently. When browsing the news archive, I cannot find it in the press release from June 2005 (when the DNA-test was announced for ECS). And appearantly - they have tested working cockers (whose owners seem to have wasted their money).

Does the Cocker Club have this information? The Swedish Cocker Club had not until recently when it was discovered by pure luck. The Swedish Kennel Club did not know neither.

Concerning OptiGen test results, some Swedish cockers have now their results registred with the Sw. KC. The best way to examine this for non-Scandinavian languages-speakers is this site http://www.rasdata.nu/cocker/pra.htm. This database is not updated very often, but it is easy to browse the results. The daily updated database of the Swedish KC is more complicated. Since the global cocker population is very - global - the pedigrees can be of interest for people outside Scandinavia.

Some language:

Anlagsbärare av PRA = PRA-carriers. Dogs that are known carriers since they have a clinical diagnosis of PRA + their parents and progeny.
Gentestade hundar, PRA-prcd DNA-testad fri A / Hereditärt fri = Dogs DNA-tested Normal/Clear or clear by parentage
Gentestade hundar, PRA-prcd DNA-testad anlagsbärare B = Dogs DNA-tested Carrier
Gentestade hundar, PRA-prcd DNA-testad sjuk C = Dogs DNA-tested Affected

Anneli

[Jane S]

First I've heard of this too Anneli. It contradicts what Jeff Sansom, the KC's Geneticist, has stated ie that the mutant gene for GPRA existed in Cockers in the UK long before the split into show and working type, implying it's the same condition in both types. This is logical since if you trace back any Cocker show or working type, you will find the same dogs eventually.

If I'd had Working Cockers tested by Optigen (I know there are a few now), I'd be wanting some serious answers from Optigen as to why they accepted the samples if they only test show-type dogs (they don't even ask about the dog's type on the test request form or they didn't the last time we sent samples)

[Phaedra]

First I've heard of this too Anneli. It contradicts what Jeff Sansom, the KC's Geneticist, has stated ie that the mutant gene for GPRA existed in Cockers in the UK long before the split into show and working type, implying it's the same condition in both types. This is logical since if you trace back any Cocker show or working type, you will find the same dogs eventually.

A question, Jane - do you know if there are any known cases of PRA among working cockers? 

If I'd had Working Cockers tested by Optigen (I know there are a few now), I'd be wanting some serious answers from Optigen.

Me too! I would probably be... It is not that you have THAT much money that you want to spend it on tests which the company themselves quotes are useless on my breed or breed variety!

...as to why they accepted the samples if they only test show-type dogs (they don't even ask about the dog's type on the test request form or they didn't the last time we sent samples).

Hm.... I quess the answer to 'why' is $$$?

I helped a friend to fill in the forms last week, and there was still NO INFORMATION neither any questions about variety. Since you can choose breed - it should be possible to choose variety and if you do choose ECS - working there should be a sign that the test cannot be performed? We do get these signs if you try to book a FN test on a European dog from OptiGen!

I know of no working cockers tested in Sweden, but there is at least one in Finland. Whaupley Anniken (born in the UK by Whaupley Reiver X Nancarrow Cinnamon) was tested Normal/Clear earlier this year.

Anneli

[Bryning]

Thanks for the replies, it's a pity there is no centralised database for results, even a voluntary one is better then nothing.

I have mailed OptiGen about the comments posted earlier, will let you know what they say.  Personally I think the test is probably as valid for workers as show type, they are all bred down from the same dogs in the first place, seems unlikely the mutation occured after the split and there are still people crossing over between lines now anyway, it's not as though there are 2 separate registries.

We had debates in the border collie fraternity about the origin of certain genetic diseases, a lot of which were initially blamed on the Australian and New Zealand lines, gene pools separated from the UK for a long time simply by distance and logistics but subsequent testing has proved that these mutations are found in the all UK pure ISDS lines as well as the Australasian lines so they have been there all the time, the methods of line breeding and inbreeding adopted in the Australisian dogs simply brought them to the surface.

[Jane S]

A question, Jane - do you know if there are any known cases of PRA among working cockers? 

Yes there are Working Cockers who have tested as Affected for GPRA in the UK since the eye testing scheme began, not very many but you have to balance that against the fact that very few Working Cockers are eye tested at all. Kirsten ("workingcockers") can probably give you more info as she knows which working lines have produced PRA.

[workingcockers]

As you can all imagine, I am seriously upset by this disclaimer on Optigens web site. I do not remember it being there last year and it is not on the breed page. It wasnt on the submission form and they did not ask what type of cocker you were submitting the test for.
Personally I think it will be the same mutation for the reasons already given

HOWEVER

It seems to me that Optigen can not guarantee the results and that worries me :

on a personal basis that I have 3 dogs tested

and

on a wider basis that it is like getting blood out of a stone getting working bred dogs tested for eyes (and hips) and this will do absolutely nothing to encourage people and may actually have the opposite effect and undo the little progress that this type has made in this area. It is a disaster to be honest.

I have written to Optigen and copied in Dr Jeff Sampson. I want answers and re assurances and I want them today!!

[workingcockers]

My polite but firm email has had a response from optigen within 5 minutes. I am just clarifying the gene mutation with them and Ill post up the response from them.

[workingcockers]

here we are folks - all is well!!

The bottom line is the Optigen test is for all types of (English) cocker and they stand by the mutation test. Thank all the little stars for that.

reply from Optigen re my email
Thank you for bringing this outdated information on our website to our attention.  We will be sure to update this to avoid future confusion. This FAQ was written prior to when the mutation responsible for prcd-PRA had been identified and when we needed to rely on markers to test for the disease.  Now that the test is based on the exact mutation that causes prcd, we can test all dogs, regardless of their breed or background,  to determine whether they carry the disease. You can rest completely assured that the Carrier x Normal ("clear") mating will result in no Affected pups.
    We appreciate your bringing this outdated information to our attention and we'll correct it promptly.

Me clarifying the gene mutation
thank you xxxx - can I just confirm that you are saying that the mutation is the same in working(also known as field cocker in some countries )and show and showxworking? This was my understanding as all these dogs came from the same foundations so it was thought or assumed it would be the same mutation.

Optigen response
Yes, the mutation is the same in the field & show cockers. In fact the exact same mutation has been found now in over 20 breeds of dogs. It must be a very old mutation that arose before many of the modern breeds split apart.
Thanks again for bringing this point to us.


I am away to open a bottle of Shiraz - I have aged 20 years in the last 30 minutes...

[Helen]

Have an extra big glass Kirsten, thanks for clarifying that 

[Cob-Web]

Excellent Kirsten - I was beginning to doubt the whole basis of my higher education  I will be joining you with the Shiraz 

[workingcockers]

Full marks to Optigen for their very fast response (and from the manager no less). Yes - I am suitably warmed now in what is a cold night (-3C) here. Early bed tonight I think  (have to reverse the 20 years I aged)

[Nicola]

Ach never worry, sure it's practically the weekend 

[workingcockers]

Im certainly over the legal limit VBG - and have a management meeting in the morning so better not look like the bride of dracula for that

edited

Anneli - has any of the Whaupley dogs that were born I think March 05, sire Ft Ch M Soloman, dam is sister to Argylle warrior but I cant remember her KC name offhand been done? I remember when she was here to have the pups and really liked her then saw her again when the pups were a few weeks old - one stayed here but think the rest went back home with her but dont know if they stayed in Sweden - could you PM me if they have as dont want to upset anyone by discussing results on a public forum..