any one else really concerned about working cocker health testing?

[Helen]

I happily admit I was a completely naive first time working cocker owner, and no, Jarv's sire and dam were not health tested (as a majority of working cockers aren't when bred).

Since Bryning posted regarding having her working cocker bitch tested and coming back as a PRA carrier it really has got me thinking hard.

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=35903.0

What really concerns me is that if current breeding 'styles' continue then we are heading for some tragic consequences.  I know that there are very very few working cocker breeders that do spend the money and test their dogs (and Workingcockers - Kirsten- should be applauded for doing so)  - I'm thinking that *unless* something awful happens within a line then the 'head in the sand'  attitude will continue.  To me there's no point in having a FT CH as a sire (for example, and I am not suggesting this is currently the case...) if he is a PRA carrier

This, and a majority of the workers on here, are bought via who we think are reliable breeders - some are reknown working cocker kennels, some are (like Jarvis) from a line bred by a gamekeeper...but more and more are popping up via 'commercial' breeders who care even less about health testing.

What do you all think? 


ps I will be testing Jarv for my own piece of mind

I can't help but think we're hiding our heads in the sand here....

[happydog]

I haven't got anything to add, except that I totally agree with you Helen.

[Coco]

I agree Helen but unfortunatly it would seem that the whole process around breeding Working Cockers is a tricky one.
The commercial breeders probably aren't ever going to test (unless it becomes a case of people won't buy unless) and the 'reliable' breeders seem to work in the dark ages with cockers. I find it incredible that gun dog breeders who have both labs and cockers will have tested labs but not cockers but if you speak to them they seem to genuinely believe that 'you don't need to test a cocker'.
Unfortunatly a lot of their reason to breed w. cockers is to produce a good dog for the field which unfortunatly have a shelf life and are a dispposable commodity. They are only really usefull for the first half of their lives and thus health issues that develop with age are somewhat irrelivent as a dog will have passed it's 'useful' stage by the time some problems come through and even if the problems come through early, they won't put the work in and move onto the next prodigey. Plenty of breeders will have dogs that are no longer fit for the field for whatever reason 'free to a good home' so to speak. That's a big generalisation but essentially it's true. From my experience, of course they love their dogs but not in the same way that a 'pet' owner does.

If we could 'vote with our feet' and demand it then fine but since practically no-one tests it's not really an option. 

If you look at something like the 'nobs' forum, the attitude in the working world to breeding is just incredible  and that's the kind of people that working dogs are bread for.

Having said all of this it's very difficult for a 'new' breeder to come into the market unless they have pups with a 'red' pedigree. Therefore they would need to have a derirable sire that is tested and good a proven working bitch and then more again if there were to be more than one line ....
err, i'm not making much sense but hopefully you see what I mean. Basically, untill it becomes 'the norm' it likely won't happen and what is there to make it become the norm?

[Helen]

to make it the 'norm' we tragically have to have cases of PRA (for e.g) rearing it's ugly head on a more regular basis....and unfortunately this WILL happen.....

As for a 'red' pedigree - actually, I don't think that is an issue in working circles (down this way anyway) - FT CH's are not the be-all and end-all when getting a reliable, all-day-long worker (and through the next couple of generations anyway there will always be FT CH in 4th or 5th gens).  It makes them more 'saleable' if the pedigree is you just go by the 'red' but a good breeder with good stock (albeit health untested  ) will have homes lined up anyway.

I have looked at the Nobs forum and find their attitude incredibly short sighted and terribly sad if this is indeed representative.

[supaspaniel]

I have looked at the Nobs forum and find their attitude incredibly short sighted and terribly sad if this is indeed representative.

I think it is unfortunately Helen...I've almost converted Matt, but not that that will help

[Cob-Web]

I agree Helen - although I think that the "head in the sand" attitude is prevalent within a lot of breeds; perhaps the fact that testing has been accepted within many highly regarded show-cocker lines magnifies the blinkered attitude amongst working cocker breeders?

I eliminated a different breed from my short list when I was looking for a dog, purely because when I began to chat to breeders on the phone and online, the attitude I encountered was "our breed doesn't have health problems" 

[Joelf]

....although I think that the "head in the sand" attitude is prevalent within a lot of breeds;

I find it incredible that gun dog breeders who have both labs and cockers will have tested labs......

Unfortunately I've come across lab breeders who don't bother to eye test or hip & elbow score their breeding stock either; labs are also a popular breed that have suffered by being over-produced & they have as many, if not more, hereditary problems as cockers.

I have looked at the Nobs forum and find their attitude incredibly short sighted and terribly sad if this is indeed representative.

I agree, Helen.   

[ClareB]

I'm incredibly naive and wasn't aware that working Cockers weren't routinely health tested before breeding and more or less than the show type.  I s'pose I thought that if gamekeepers etc were breeding dogs for work then they'd want to make sure that they would have a good, long working life.     Guess that shows my naivety.     But it might also be that I didn't do any research into working Cockers as I don't have one, but Milo's dad was a working Cocker and he had been PRA tested.  He must be in the minority.

Agree though, that the same health testing should be done in all working strain breeds in the same way it should be done for the show types of the same breed. 

[workingcockers]

what I have found is that in the days before optigen, when I 'only' had the visual eye exams and hips, many of my buyers werent interested in the fact that at least the dam had an eye certificate as 'well, theres no probs anyway'. Have to say these were older people who were buying a pup to train, as a replacement for an ageing dog etc and were old school of thought. Now, even with my optigen tested dogs, no one has asked me what it means, buyers really arent interested (but I bet they would be if their dog went blind early). Its quite dis heartening.

ClaireB - was Milo's dad done under the KC eye scheme or Optigen tested?

The way I see it as it stands just now, Optigen hasnt yet become a KC scheme which means that results are not public. I think it is partially fear that is stopping many of the 'names' from testing, I cant believe that all do not know that the test is available..So, if they were to use the test now,it would add extra appeal to any champions that were clear and any carriers could be used with caution and any affecteds quietly withdrawn from stud. I know its not an ideal scenario though but I do think this 'fear' is a big reason not to test.

As for the dogs that are tested to date, I have 3, bryning has 2, Chris Bridgwater has 2 and I know of another 2, this brings the total I know of to 9, which is 7 clear, 2 carriers.

[Tasha]

I just wrote out a long post on this and my session timed out but basically

I firmly believe in testing where and when its available I was booted off the NOBs forum in part for this view.
Mine are tested despite the fact that its not necessary in cockers and I've been strongly advised NOT to test by various people.  I have provided my test results for optigen to my breeder and the breeders of my dogs sire and dam - my results were CLEAR

Attitudes won't change until the clubs get behind the testing and request the KC make a note of them on the KC Registrations, something that they currently don't do.  The only request is for an EYE TEST with GONIOSCOPY even though there are lots of other tests available that should be carried out including DNA tests which are growing as more is known about the dogs DNA.

The reason that some breeders are prepared to test their labs but not their cockers is because its not a KC requirement.  These are the requirements for the labs:

1) Hip scoring 2) Eye testing 1) Elbow grading 2) DNA test - PRA

I think that speaks volumes, here is a breed that has taken the bull by the horns and made some real positive changes to their breeding program something I think ALL the breeds should be doing.

At the end of the day dogs only need to be tested once if its DNA and a bitch is acceptably ok to have three litters a stud dog if popular can have an enormous impact so the cost is more than covered in the production of ONE SINGLE LITTER or STUD SERVICE.

[Coco]

So if a dog were tested would it just be the owner that was privvy to the results or would it be available to the public? So really, there is no way of knowing what the truth is if a person says they have tested without seeing the certificate?

I don't understand how it all works, passing through generations etc but given the relativly small gene pool for Working cockers couldn't it potentiallly wipe out a good number of lines if one popular sire were proven to be a carrier? (or is that wrong  ) If that is the case the future of working cockers would be very different? Say if like a very well known trialing kennel dogs are closely bread, if one high up the chain were a carrier the whole line could be in jeapordy and then the work that has been put into improving the dogs in that line could stop right there as they would have to stop breeding that line? ....oh doG, i'm having trouble making sense today - I hope that is understanable.
Or would it all be ok by never putting a carrier to another carrier?

I cant believe that all do not know that the test is available..

Yes particularly when it is so relevant in other working breeds, it must come up!

The reason that some breeders are prepared to test their labs but not their cockers is because its not a KC requirement. 

I just don't understand when they are familiar with the process and costs etc by having done it for their Labs, it baffels me as to why they don't test cockers too

[Tasha]

basically you can have your results open to the public, you make a copy of your certificate sign it and send it in to OFA along with a fee and they publish it.  I haven't done that bit yet although I think I will.  There are some UK bred dogs on it but I am not sure if you have to be registered in the US to have your details maintained.

If the Breed Clubs agreed that the test results can be collected and placed on the registrations then the KC would collect them. So basically you would need to get a letter together for each of the relative breed clubs for the UK and ask at their AGM for the DNA testing to be added to requirement for the breed and IF they all agree then they can make a request to the KC.  It can't be done on an individual basis.

I have given the KC a copy of my dogs clear results for the 'prcd Mutation Test for PRA' which is the red cone degeneration of the disease but it will only be noted on their records not listed for anyones use.  The Optigen form states that this is the only form of PRA recognised in this breed so I don't know if that means that other forms of the disease could still occur.

Dogs could still suffer from other forms of PRA including CPRA (centralised PRA) is supposed to be diet related based on a poor diet & vitamin E deficiency rather than genetically passed down although its still under debate in some circles.

I would at some point like another cocker and prefer it be of my own breeding so I have more choice so it would definitely be interesting to know which stud dogs have been tested is there a list available?

[Jane S]

Tasha, Optigen test results for prcd_PRA will be added to KC registrations in the near future - the KC need the breed clubs to give their formal support to a request and that is in the process of going through at the moment although it might take a few months. I don't think this step will actually make much difference to the lack of testing by working Cocker breeders since the KC system already incorporates clinical eye test results and still only a small minority of Working Cocker breeders use the scheme.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Lab breeders test because it's a KC requirement - there is no KC requirement to do any testing in Labradors unless the breeder is a member of the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme. Since the ABS only has 2000 or so members (all breeds), it follows that the majority of breeders are not members of the scheme and so any testing is purely voluntary. It's just that testing has become "accepted practice" in Lab circles whereas it's not in Working Cocker circles although the fact we've even got this thread on COL is a step forward compared to a few years ago

[fenn2006]

I was exactly the same on not knowing before I joined this site.  When we bought Fenn i did ask is there any health problems such as eyes...and was told "cockers don't have problems with there eyes".....as well Martins uncle whom is a game keeper has breed from a lab who has epileptic fits!!...I couldn't believe it when I heard and I know for a fact many of the underkeepers have used this dog for stud....it is shocking...and I think this probably happens with a few gamekeepers...like others have said the dog is only seen as a working tool and easily replaced leading to lots of litters with god knows what inherited problems as long as the dog serves its purpose...... with all Fenns problems Martins uncle said."I'd have her put down I couldn't believe it, but I knew that is exactly what he would do....and probably his self

 I again know another gunman whom has bred from his lab and one of the litter who a friend has, has a very bad hip score and is now very unwell with bad hips...they only found out this when testing her as wanted to breed but thank god had the sense not to ignore it and didn't breed from her....the dam has since had another litter...

I know that if I bred from Fenn (which won't happen), that I would want the best of the best for her....knowing that not only was she getting a proven working dog for her babies but that the stud was as healthy and fit as possible....yes it would cost but surely that it what your girl deserves....with many gamekeeper working dog breeders if must be the money thing.....and no disrespect to the men but it seems to be the old breed gamekeepers who are the worst.....things definitely need to change!

[fenn2006]

Sorry to slightly detract but what are the tests that breeding cockers should have had done?  We will defintely be getting another working cocker when Fenn is about 2 to 3yrs old and want to be totally tooled with the right questions....but from whats being said a lot of breeders wont have tested there breeding dogs anyhow...