any one else really concerned about working cocker health testing?

[Jane S]

I think maybe you had Ayla tested in that in-between stage last year before things were set up properly by Antagene. I know clinics run recently just for Cockers have taken one sample per dog for both PRA & FN testing. It does take longer going via France to the US but then we find samples sent as part of a clinic tend to take longer anyway than doing it all yourself.

[fenn2006]

So just getting my head around all this by mating say a dam who is PRA clear with a sire whom is a carrier you will not get any carrier pups? or would you have 50/50  sorry am confused.  Have just been reading up on this on NOBs and their logic is if you mate a clear with a carrier you may have some clear and some carriers..and this is ok because you can then mate clear with clear, ect? surely this isn't good because you are just prolonging the diease...but then again .....sorry have lost this now could someone post me a dummies guide

[Helen]

So just getting my head around all this by mating say a dam who is PRA clear with a sire whom is a carrier you will not get any carrier pups? or would you have 50/50  sorry am confused.  Have just been reading up on this on NOBs and their logic is if you mate a clear with a carrier you may have some clear and some carriers..and this is ok because you can then mate clear with clear, ect? surely this isn't good because you are just prolonging the diease...but then again .....sorry have lost this now could someone post me a dummies guide

This page is really informative and easy to follow 
http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/optigen_FN.htm

My issue is that with the way a lot of working cockers are bred if someone buys a PRA carrier what's to stop them breeding without testing and inadvertently mate a carrier/carrier or carrier/affected?  Chances are very high that this is happening right now...

[sportsmonki]

are the collie crowd ( trialling not showing) going for optigen or is it still the annual eyetest.?

For the most part...no.  They tend to use the stance that working dogs need to be healthy to work.  They can tell if a dog is blind/deaf, etc and so it is removed from the gene pool. 

[Cob-Web]

So just getting my head around all this by mating say a dam who is PRA clear with a sire whom is a carrier you will not get any carrier pups? or would you have 50/50  sorry am confused.  Have just been reading up on this on NOBs and their logic is if you mate a clear with a carrier you may have some clear and some carriers..and this is ok because you can then mate clear with clear, ect? surely this isn't good because you are just prolonging the diease...but then again .....sorry have lost this now could someone post me a dummies guide

In an ideal world from a genetic health perspective, you would try not to mate a carrier, because, as you rightly say, it passes the affected gene onto another generation of dogs -  BUT......in order to exclude carriers from any breeding programmes, the gene pool of dogs suitable for breeding has to be large enough to maintain genetic diversity of future generations.

Never breeding from carriers is definitely desirable; but even within the tested show cocker lines, breeders do use carriers in order to further a particular line and maintain a large enough genetic pool to keep the breed viable 

[Nicola]

My issue is that with the way a lot of working cockers are bred if someone buys a PRA carrier what's to stop them breeding without testing and inadvertently mate a carrier/carrier or carrier/affected?  Chances are very high that this is happening right now...

Exactly, these are cases in which ignorance is most definitely not bliss    There is just no way of knowing if a dog is a carrier without doing the testing and what most breeders are doing at the moment pretty much amounts to playing Russian roulette with their matings.

[fenn2006]

Ah I gets ya thanks Rachel/Nic/Helen was totally loosing the plot.  Yep like you say in an ideal world.....I hate to think what Fenn may have...she has come from good stock as they say but how good health wise....she may be lucky and have parents that were clear or indeed one that was....definitely want to have Fenn done now and will be happy to give the breeders the results...thanks huns....is amazing how much knowledge I feel I have now when we do eventually add to the brood....

Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six , he is definitely not a proven gundog and like Fenn has come from parents with no health tests....but the keeper liked the look of him I think getting keepers on side is going to prove very tricky.....unfortunately.....getting them to go on forums such as this.....well if OH is anything to go by thats another topic all together!

[Jane S]

Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six ,

Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders

[Helen]

Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six ,

Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders

My thoughts too Jane - especially as he's not even a proven dog and it's just because he looks 'nice'. 

I find it extraordinary and another example of poor breeding ethics 

[Nicola]

Just to add to the debate our friend has Fenn's half brother (same sire) and as he is entire has been lined up for a three keepers dogs around the area, one keeper whom has 6 or seven bitches wants to use Max...bless him for all six ,

Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders

My thoughts too Jane - especially as he's not even a proven dog and it's just because he looks 'nice'. 

I find it extraordinary and another example of poor breeding ethics 

God I missed that bit earlier. With some of the idiots who seem to be getting into working cockers now it's sadly not totally shocking, I was approached by lord knows how many people at game fairs last year asking to use Alfie as a stud and they knew nothing about him at all, they just liked the look of him and saw that he's a flashy colour which Kirsten was saying to me last week seems to be the latest one to be 'in vogue' amongst certain types of puppy buyers 

The mind boggles at the thought process of anyone who wants to use an unproven, untested dog as a stud to 6 bitches, does he realise that's potentially over 40 puppies he could end up with?! Or maybe he just rubs his hands together thinking of the money for these 'ideal pets and working dogs' as the ads seem to go these days    Ohhhh it makes me so MAD!!

[Tasha]

It doesn't surprise me at all, most keepers don't exactly earn a fortune so breeding their dogs and selling the puppy is a valuable income to them and testing is not even a topic that comes up with the ones that I know.  Some are slowly coming round to testing but when the majority of owners won't do it I suppose you can't expect them to either.  I think if this was something taken on by NOBs, BASC, NGO or the like it might become a little more acceptable but as none of these groups are interested at present I can't see it taking off other than slowly through more open minded breeder/owners.

I'd still like to see a list of the dogs that are tested so that those who have had theirs done can choose carefully from the list for breeding purposes.

Jane your right I think Antegene had only just taken over the licence I'm glad that things have improved.

[fenn2006]

Now that's how to lose genetic diversity - mate all the bitches in the area to the same dog Will this gamekeeper really be able to find good, permanent homes for the offspring of 6-7 bitches? I'm quite shocked really - it's the sort of thing you expect from commercial pet breeders who frequently mate all their bitches to one dog but somehow I didn't expect it so much from Working Cocker breeders
[/quote]

I don't think this keeper has breed before but came from another area (around 40 miles away) and from the sounds of things he was a keeper with his father on an estate somewhere (I overheard the conversation during beating over christmas)....but yep I totally agree its the naivety of it all really; going into something that they have no idea about...loads of people have asked if we will breed from Fenn, and like you Nic this happens a lot at gamefairs because yes she is very pretty, well behaved and small, which a lot of the men are interested by but not once ask about health only what lines she has in her pedigree...most the time not even that. 

To be honest and I will probably be told off, we had it in mind that we MAY of breed from Fenn when she was about three; she was coming on nicely, steady in temprement, good worker and we thought see how she goes, OH wanted to see about trialing her ect ect.....but after reading all on here, plus all the problems she has gone through, it wouldn't be fair and the thought of loosing her if things went wrong,through in a sense, our own selfishness i guess for wanting to keep a bit of her when she goes too (if thats sounds silly), is again not fair. I'm not saying that in the future if we had a cocker whom had proved she was a good gundog, good temperament and paramount tested well for all health conditions, that I had the time, money, research and knowledge, was prepared for everything, I wouldn't consider it but realistically that ain't never gonna happen...but that in part is because I  care and take the time to come on forums like this because I care about this breed (am besotted with it) and want to do the best for my dog....i think it is such a shame that anybody can by a dog and basically do what they like with it, even without any bad intentions as such just don't know any better....sorry I'll get off my soap box

[Coco]

I've just read a small article taht came from shooting UK. The question was 'How do I go about getting a litter from my working stock spaniel?'
The answer mentioned nothing about testing not thinking about the risks. Ok so it was a small answer but a few lines?
I think it sums up how the morking world often approach the issue of breeding and it's perpetuated by the fact that when people ask questions the 'experts' don't mention it 
In fact they mane it sound like a walk in the park http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/124101/How_do_I_breed_a_litter_of_puppies.html

Also, I called up breezybrook Gun dogs about potential litters today. They have 4 in March from one of theirs however the good news is he is eye tested clear. They said it's not something they do but a lady that wanted him for stud wanted him tested and paid for it.

[fenn2006]

  That says it all really dosen't it that in order to know a dog is clear you have to pay for it yourself....now Breezybrooks  will love the fact that they can now say their stud dog has been tested clear and will make there stud even more useable...bad really isn't it....but in another way good to know that there is another stud dog which won't be passing the diease.

[Jane S]

but in another way good to know that there is another stud dog which won't be passing the diease.

It doesn't mean that at all though unless the stud dog has been Optigen tested A clear eye test only means the dog was unaffected at the time he was tested, he could still be a carrier or even affected at a later date.