Lungworm: Advocate vs Panacur

[Mel]

I am really struggling with this now as I do not like to use excessive chemicals on Tali.

My problem is that Advocate treats but does not prevent only one type of Lungworm. And the frequency of administration is such that most dogs are getting this monthly even if they do not need it.

Panacur treats three types of Lungworm.

Nothing actually prevents it only kills it after infestation. OH has opposing opinion on this as Berti suffered severe Lungworm issues. However Berti was treated with high dose Panacur then monthly spot on with Advocate but it was never determined which strain of Lungworm he had and as Panacur kills 3 types the Advocate could have been administered for no reason.

I have also found out that the main chemical ingredient in Advocate is being blamed by French beekeepers for the demise of the honey bee population.

My OH is against over vaccination but has very rigid views on Advocate which I can understand but ultimately it was the Panacur that actually saved Berti's life.

Anyone have any thoughts on all this?

[Goggins]

  sounds to me like you ave already made your mind up from reading your post....

After having my boxer start fitting then die from acute blood haemorrhage with lungworms being the suspect til proven not so from her post Morton I always use advocate. I live in an area where my vet has treated numerous lungworm cases (proven by tracheal washes) so I will never ever run that risk of going through that again....for me it is also peace of mind.

I don't wish to sound rude but this is something I'm very passionate about and I do respect everyone else's thoughts too

[Mel]

No you are not rude and this is the struggle I have as I don't want Tali to get Lungworm but these are harsh chemicals which could in years to come prove to have caused no end of issues. Afterall this then makes more profit for vets and medicine manufacturers too.

I know I am cynical.

[Karma]

I was under the impression that Advocate was the only drug licensed as a preventative treatment, with Panacur being the preferred method of actually treating a confirmed infection. 

I know Milbemax, if given monthly, gives "some" protection, but it isn't licensed for this.

I have had to go with taking my chances with Lungworm... we did try Advocate for 3 months, as there were several confirmed cases of Lungworm in the local area... but Honey was getting very itchy at the application site, and the reaction was intensifying each time, which was concerning... 

[Neon]

I was under the impression that Advocate was the only drug licensed as a preventative treatment, with Panacur being the preferred method of actually treating a confirmed infection.  

I know Milbemax, if given monthly, gives "some" protection, but it isn't licensed for this.

This is almost EXACTLY what I have been told by my vet after lengthy discussions bordering on arguments.  I use Milbemax every 3 months which my vet says will PREVENT lungworm, even though the packet says it only reduces level of infestation.  I hate using any wormer but Toby is still a little sod for mouthing at snails and we have loads of the damn things in the garden.  I have never used a topical flea preventative.  I just keep checking his skin and coat (hard with a black) and hoping for the best.  I have to take my vets word for it as far as lungworm is concerned as I really don't want to start using Advocate, or any other topical applicaton.  It's a real pain in the ar*e trying to do the best for your dog as you hear so many conflicting stories.  I was interested to know what my vet uses on his dog (cocker) which is Milbemax and Stronghold.  Using these two combined, the only protection not offered (according to him) is against ticks but he says we have low levels of ticks in this area, apparently.  So Mel, like you, I am at loggerheads, confused and very cynical towards vets and also terrified that Toby will get lungworm despite using an application that the vet insists is a preventative!

[Mel]

Just spoke to my vets. Anna was out but a nurse tried telling me Advocate prevents lungworm. When I pointed out the packet states "treatment for.." lungworm the reply was "well if you use it every 4 weeks it will prevent it. When I asked how I was told that if the dog contracted lungworm would be killed. So I reiterated that it treats it then. She just said "prevents".

Apparently the incidences of lungworm in the area has dropped dramatically which is allegedly all down to the Advocate.

No mention of Milbemax. Panacure can only cure not prevent allegedly.

Had no idea about the different types of lungworm so just drifted over that without an answer.

The fact I get scant or no answers to certain things makes me.feel they know what I am saying is true and they just don't want to admit it.

Still not convinced.

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

I'm watching this thread as I use avocate.

However if there is something out there that is better I'll use that.

My one problem with avocate is it's in liquid format which means parting all of my pups hair (he has a lot of it) so it's quite hard to make sure the whole thing goes on. Tablet form would work better for him .

[Ebbysmum]

My Mum took Lexi to the vets yesterday and asked his opinion on it for me. Panacur is only any good for treating a confirmed case. Milbemax is only given every three months and He said in that time if it wan't successful then the cycle of the lung worm would be quite far along so wasn't happy with this. He said Advocate really is the only thing to prevent. Just stocked up on 12 pipettes for £66 which will only last 4 months now. I don't like using it either, in stinks gets everywhere and is really hard to apply, but he had a dog that died of lung worm recently so I am not prepared to risk it!

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

My Mum took Lexi to the vets yesterday and asked his opinion on it for me. Panacur is only any good for treating a confirmed case. Milbemax is only given every three months and He said in that time if it wan't successful then the cycle of the lung worm would be quite far along so wasn't happy with this. He said Advocate really is the only thing to prevent. Just stocked up on 12 pipettes for £66 which will only last 4 months now. I don't like using it either, in stinks gets everywhere and is really hard to apply, but he had a dog that died of lung worm recently so I am not prepared to risk it!

Oh yes I forgot about the stink (it's worming this week for us). I also noticed his breath stinking of it for a few days afterwards as well...I don't mind doggy breath but I DO mind avocate doggy breath!

[Mel]

Ok my research is throwing up some very inconsistent things.One thing I keep reading is how perfectly safe Advocate is. One site even claimed it was non-carcinogenic or non-cancer forming but this was not the official Bayer site.

Ok let's go through this and hope its not too complicated.

First off, Anglostrongylus vasorum or the French Heartworm is one of 4 main lungworms that can infect your dog.

Advocate contains moxidectrin and imidacloprid the first can be fatal and indeed cause poisoning and neurological issues if ingested and the latter is highly toxic to honey bees and mildly toxic to some birds. Imidacloprid is a pesticide and is used crops. However its use has been suspended in France and several other EU countries due to its effect upon honey bees and other wildlife.

Another name for moxidectrin is Ivermectin.

Panacur has the active ingredient Fenbendazole. The only usage I can find is as a dewormer. It has shown toxicity when ingested by certain birds and reptiles. I can find no toxicity evidence reported for cats.or dogs.

Milbemax is Mibemycin oxide and Prazquantril. The latter is a wormer and is also known as Drontal or Droncit amongst other names. This wormer has a 90% incidence of causing diarrhea and/or vomiting after being ingested. High doses can cause increased symptoms.

Milbemycin oxide is tolerated well by dogs even those with multiple drug resistance.

Interceptor is a Milbemycin oxime only preparation and only available in the USA.

The four types of lungworm are:

1) Anglostrogylus vasorum or French Heartworm
2) Oslerus osleri
3) Filaroides birth
4)  Crenosoma vulpis


Noah's compendium states that:

ADVOCATE: only treats 1 & 4

PANACUR: only treats 2

MILBEMAX: reduces level of infection in 1 & 4

However the Merck Veterinary handbook srates that Fenbendazole treats lungworms 1, 2 & 4 and also protects against Giardia.

Now this is where it is complicated. Panacur is Fenbendazole. Intavets website who manufacture Panacur say it only treats the infestation of Oslerus osleri. If this is so then it is of no use against Anglostrongylus vasorum so why is this used in high doses to treat it if the manufacturer and Noah's both state it won't treat the lungworm that Advocate prevents?
Mercks state Fenbendazole will treat the lungworms listed 1, 2 & 4 so they believe it can treat the lungworm treated by Advocate.

So why does Panacur not state this on their packaging?

Now, quandary number 2 is that Merck state and I quote "Another option for prevention of canine A. vasorum is mibemycin oxime ...."
 in other words Milbemax. However as it also contains Praziquantel which is a wormer it would be safer to treat with a Mibemycin only formula which is Interceptor but that's only available in the US.Milbemax manufacturers also only state that it "reduces the level of infestation of A.  vasorum".

Furthermore, A. vasorum has a pre patent period of 40-49 days. This means symptoms will not show until 40-49 days after infestation. So technically a dog could and I make no claims to this,  could be treated every 5 weeks with Advocate and still be within the pre patent period. As I am not a vet I don't suggest you do this. This information is only for reference.

It also means one could technically treat with the appropriate dose of Panacur or Milbemax within the pre patent period.

The most worrying thing about Advocate is that it attacks the central nervous system of the parasite. There are no publicly published studies that I can find which show the long term effects on the central nervous system of dogs routinely treated monthly over a life span.

I know Advocate affected the medicine used to stimulate the nerves in Tali's eye by suppressing the nerve. This was unscientific but the opthamologist concurred with the information I found out and suggested using Milbemax for lungworm prevention.

I hope I have made this easy to follow. Although Advocate is stated as a treatment and cure, Milbemax according to Merck is a.preventative and Fenbendazole or Panacur covers more types of lungworm.


Sorry this is long and sorry for spelling or grammar as I am typing know the phone.

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

Firstly well done for typing all of that on your phone.

Secondly that is very informative. However now I'm in a quandry at what is the best thing so use...

[Mel]

Sorry also forgot that Advocate unlike Panacur or Milbemax is absorbed into the blood stream of the dog. Also as a spot on the preservation rubs off of the dogs fur onto hands, clothing, etc.

Also if you have more than one dog and one of the dogs licks the Advocate application site the dog can get serious neurological issues and sickness.


There is also increasing discussion that the lungworm cannot be passed on via slime and needs a host to travel in.

The information is actually pretty scant and very contradictory.

[Mel]

And its 3) Filaroides hirth  not birth lol.

[Mybuddies]

I rather suspect its all to do with the licensing/red tape of these products mel

some of the ingredients probably are active against certain parasites but unless they have obtained the complete license they cannot state so

this uncertainty carries right through the veterinary products/meds

it is indeed rather frustrating when you are only trying to do the very best for your pet!

[Neon]

It also means one could technically treat with the appropriate dose of Panacur or Milbemax within the pre patent period.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to research and post your findings.  Regarding the above, I'm reading this that Milbemax could be given every 6-8 weeks as opposed to once a month?  The problem I have with this is my vet will only prescribe it every 3 months, in which case, according to your findings, renders it pretty useless.  What a minefield and it seems the more we look for answers, the more frightened and confused we become.