dog borstal

[Colin]

Mark, would it be a viable option to to show a similar program but showing either yours or similar techniques, or would the producers not deem it sensational enough. I am very cynical of all media.

You could be right - the training methods apart, what I really dislike about these dog programmes is that they are a dumbed down compromise for the casual viewer that probably has little or no interest in dogs or dog training. The dogs behaviour is being served up as voyeuristic entertainment, under a pretence of being educational. The actual training takes up a tiny percentage of what we see - instead we get Mic showing off to the cameras, battling with the owners, seeing the owners whinge in their tent etc etc. Add to this the constant refreshing of the dog's "problems", if they've caught a sensationalist bit of footage they'll play it every 5/10 mins of the show - it's like they can't trust the viewer to have a memory beyond that of a goldfish. Yet the constant justification of the producers to accusations that they use dangerous, quick-fix methods is that they can't show all the training that's been done behind the scenes because of time constraints - yet they constrain the time themselves with all the irrelevant fluff they choose to show.  I'm sure I'm not the only person that watches in the hope of seeing actual dog training, rather than presenters bigging themselves up to further their own TV careers and future book sales.

The type of dog programme I'd like to see would be similar to 7Up or Citizen2000 - where the cameras followed the development of groups of kids through to adulthood. For the canine version they could show a group of owners being guided into finding the right breed ( and breeder) for their lifestyles, with a couple of rescue dogs too, maybe a dog that will go onto work, one that will be shown etc. We would then follow the dogs progress throughout their lives, the ups and downs - a full range of normal everyday problems being dealt with. The dogs would become the stars rather than the presenters - as we'd be getting constant updates of the same dogs, we'd see if methods have worked longterm and there would be less need for the short-term quick fix methods we get now. I think the public would like such a prog, as they'd come to know and identify with the individual dogs - rather than see them as out of control monsters.

[Top Barks]

Mark, would it be a viable option to to show a similar program but showing either yours or similar techniques, or would the producers not deem it sensational enough. I am very cynical of all media.
I am not sure if you missunderstood my post with regards to my own training "regime" which is most definitely pink and fluffy and would have Mick turning green. He is after all ex military and ex police and they have specific training methods for very specific needs. Which I would humbly suggest does not really transfer well to "civvy" street.
I think that the program does issue a warning that the methods seen should not be tried at home

Hi Tommo, no it was just that I wanted to make the point that the dogs shown on the program are no worse than the dogs i often work with.
The warnings on the bottom of the screen  I believe are due to the amount of knowledgable dog folk who wrote in to complain that Jo public could do some serious damage to their dogs with these methods.
My argument would be that the words smoking kills are written prominently on cigarette packets but many people still ignore the warnings.
Some dog owners are blissfully unaware of the consequences for the dog and dog/owner relationship that using aversives can bring.
Mark

[Tommo]

To be fair some of the people who have appeared on the show are blissfully unaware of what day it is let alone anything else!

[Top Barks]

To be fair some of the people who have appeared on the show are blissfully unaware of what day it is let alone anything else!

[Krisdt]

I dont watch it for any other reason other than entertainment, I go to a trainer so dont need another lot of ideas to mix in. I am sure most sensible owners only watch it for the entertainment value, I certainley wouldnt class it as educational. I do agree however that some of the owners on this show need someone to put them straight with no messing around. I know alot of ex military peeps (especially officers and instructors) who talk to everyone like they are still in charge, and I personally can look past this as it is what they are used to maybe this is the case with Mic? (I am starting to sound like a member of the mic fanclub now )

[Cob-Web]

I dont watch it for any other reason other than entertainment, I go to a trainer so dont need another lot of ideas to mix in. I am sure most sensible owners only watch it for the entertainment value, I certainley wouldnt class it as educational.

But when animals are subjected to suffering, or poor handling/training then surely watching it for your own entertainment means that you think that it is acceptable to do this to dogs ?

[supaspaniel]

. He is after all ex military and ex police and they have specific training methods for very specific needs. Which I would humbly suggest does not really transfer well to "civvy" street.

I spent some time with police dog trainers for some research into training methods and the attitudes I found were a very anti-Mic method approach(if that makes sense) The training methods I saw and opinions given were of the king gentle fun persuation type that Mark uses and not the methods of Mic. I cant be doing with the programme either

[Colin]

I dont watch it for any other reason other than entertainment, I go to a trainer so dont need another lot of ideas to mix in. I am sure most sensible owners only watch it for the entertainment value, I certainley wouldnt class it as educational.

But when animals are subjected to suffering, or poor handling/training then surely watching it for your own entertainment means that you think that it is acceptable to do this to dogs ?

Some of the things I've seen on Dog Borstal have been bordering on animal cruelty, not my idea of entertainment at all. On a couple of occassions they've appeared to deliberately set up the dogs to fail so they'd react aggressively - just because it would make good television. 

The APDT released a statement a while back with their view, "barbaric" was the word they used...

"It has been a worrying time for dog training. Many of you will have seen the BBC3 series ‘Dog Borstal’.  This programme showed ‘experts’ (BBC’s word, not ours) training dogs in a residential setting.  The methods used were, at best, outdated and in many instances barbaric.  I am sure many of you were upset by this – especially as many viewers will think that it is the correct way to train their dogs.

The committee were appalled at this ‘entertainment’ and have written to the BBC explaining our worries about the content and the ramifications for dogs and asking for a commitment that the series will not be re-commissioned or shown again. "

[Krisdt]

Admittedly I have not seen all of the episodes and I certainely wouldnt watch anything if I had seen anything bordering on cruelty, and I guess the episodes I have seen are some of the 'lighter' ones. When I use the word entertainment I dont mean as in funny light hearted, I mean as in something that is not educational nothing more. I dont watch the show to find out how to train my dog I watch it to see how other people think it should be done it doesnt mean I agree with everything nor would I personally use any of the techniques. Tbh this is the second time this topic has been brought up on col and I personally have already come to realise that people are split on their views on this show and others such as IMOTD, and I dont think everyone will agree on them. Just like there are 2 dog trainers in my home town one believes in giving the dog a smack the other would smack the owner if they raised a hand to the dog (both are qualified trainers) they disagree in methods but they agree to disagree.

[Tommo]

I have not seen all of the episodes, not even close. If I had seen any instances of cruelty or barbaric acts I would have entirely differant veiw of things. I would still like to see something similar to Marks approach on tv

[Top Barks]

The trouble is Tommo the methods i use would not be dramatic enough.
Say on DB a dog is dog dog aggressive and they shake the rattle bottle at the dog and it distracts the dog and it then behaves round other dogs.
The public see this and think wow, result the dog is cured.
Wrong!
The dog is intimidated into not reacting, but the emotions towards the other dog are still there, they have done nothing to address the root of the problem.
This takes time and they have only a short amount of time when working with the dogs on this programme.
What they do stops the problem at that time but of course dogs do not generalize behaviour too well and some dogs learn to ignore punisher's if the stimulus is great enough any way.
With a dog aggressive dog you need to address the root causes and not treat the symptoms or it is possible you will have to up the level of punishment if the dog learns to ignore the level origionally used.
Punishment may indeed work for some dogs and it's quicker but it's not for me it's too risky in the wrong hands and could damage relationships for ever.
Mark

[Penel]

Absolutely - they don't have long enough to film proper rehabilitation, they only have the time for quick fixes.  That's why that stupid programme is filmed at a "base" it's easy for the crew, and production !  all the people and their dogs, and the trainers, in one place, for a week - easy peasy.
Now use reward based methods, and even teaching dogs a la Angela Stockdale - and it's gonna take months.

[Caticus]

I don't watch the programme any more. Mark's positive training methods do get just the same, in fact better results than anything on the programme. I agree that a programme showing positive training methods would not be seem as sensational enough and perhaps a tad boring. It also worries me that the method used appear to fit into today's quick fix society. People in general don't seems to have time to spend with each other let alone their animals
I got into dog behaviour through Forrest. We'd always had large dogs - GSD, Goldies, border colliex and never had any problems with them. We turned to a cocker as we wanted something smaller that could travel abroad with us, but didn't want a puppy and all the hard work. Forrest was 18 months and had been returned to his breeder as uncontrollable, distructive and barking excessively. She had him for a month but he had been neutered and wouldn't settle in a kennel/house environment. She let us take him on condition we didn't get another dog for at least 2 years and that there were no small children about and he would be returned to her if we couldn't cope.
We made the mistake of going to a behavourist who uses traditonal methods as in Dog Borstal and I spent a great deal of time in tears and tearing my hair out. I was teaching adults/children with special needs at the time and decided to use similar methods on Forrest - lots of praise for the smallest achievement, take things very slowly a step at a time and no shouting, agression and negatiave feedback. After a year he was a changed dog. It was a lot of blood, sweat and tears but I now have a dog who will do anything for me and is so well adjusted.

I am now studying a degree in canine behaviour and training and have learned that my methods were the positive training methods Mark talks about. Forrest is brilliant now. He loves been with the other dogs in the class, he loves agility, fly ball and gets soo excited when I get the clicker out of the draw. He's come on so well that we have now got Ash and up to now he has coped really well.

Sorry this post is so long and its only my second one, but I feel that Forrest would have not survived with the dog borstal training methods - most people don't shout, scream, drag, punish and yank our children about so why do it to a dog or any other creature?

[Top Barks]

Here here Lynn

[Tracy S]

I have noticed in DB that they still make lots of references to pack status, am I right in thinking that this is not in line with current thinking   The other night I saw a programme where a tiny dog put it's leg on it's owner, the owner was told that that dog was elevating his position in the pack, is this true