Confused - Updated

[mofi]

Hi,

I haven't posted anything on here for a while but have kept reading posts to keep up to date with other peoples/dogs problems.  I wonder if anybody could help me with a problem I have with Alfie.  He is 9 months old now and is quite a contradiction so find him hard to work out.  He is so lovable with us and we have no aggression issues with him.  He is still wary of people even though we have socialised him from a pup of 8 weeks old.  His usual behaviour will be to go up to somebody and sniff but if that person tries to stroke him he will back away and bark.  He can be quite terratorial around the house and will bark at the window or the door if someone approaches or even walks by. 

In the main he is friendly with dogs and always wants to meet. Although in the past couple of months he has started to jump on top of them or place his paw on the top of their necks.  Most dogs will either snap at him or push him off and then they start to play.  There is one dog that he meets on occassions that happens to be another boy cocker a couple of months younger and always rolls on his back to Alfie and shows submissive behaviour, but Alfie will stand over him and growl.  Then they will seem fine for a minute or so and it will happen again with Alfie then growling and snapping and attacking him.  I know he's trying to dominate him but I obviously have to pull him away because he doesn't seem to know when to stop.  I'm thinking about getting him castrated to hopefully stop this type of behaviour but have 2 questions.  When would be the ideal time to do this?  The other is would it actually help him as he is quite a scaredy cat over other things.  i.e. new situations and people.

I'm very confused over his behaviour ......help!

[spanielcrazy]

A bit confusing; yes!  On the one hand he is lacking in confidence with people, but with dogs he's a little too overconfident. That is adolescence and I'm not at all surprised that this started a couple of months ago (7 months old, right on schedule!  )

He sounds like he is being a bully with the one other dog simply because he can; the other dog is showing submission and won't tell him off, so he is flexing a bit of teenage muscle. The other dogs tell him off so he doesnt do that with them. (there are no better trainers than another dog )

As for the neutering, it's  hard to say. My own experience is that they are going to go through adolescence regardless of whether they are neutered or not, it's an important learning period for them. Some say it can shake their confidence if they are a nervous or reactive type; I can't really say for sure. There is no "ideal" time to neuter; your'e not under the gun of seasons the way you are with bitches, so you certainly have time to think it over and research it. 

[Jayne_S]

My Oscar is 8 months old and I have similar problems with him barking; I can settle him if he's barking at a noise he's heard outside but not so much when people enter the house he does not know.  He's very loving too and is friendly when we are out but I've noticed there seems to be odd people that try to stroke him he doesn't seem to like but not everyone......hard to fix when you don't know exactly what's triggering it and how do we build their confidence?

Oscar has these 'mad 5 minutes' where he suddenly runs round at 50 miles an hour and if the back door is open he goes flying outside round the garden back in the house and round and round...does Alfie do anything like that; I was wondering if that was a 'hormonal' thing with them at this age, I must admit I was going to read up on castration too! 

[JennyBee]

Oscar has these 'mad 5 minutes' where he suddenly runs round at 50 miles an hour and if the back door is open he goes flying outside round the garden back in the house and round and round...does Alfie do anything like that; I was wondering if that was a 'hormonal' thing with them at this age, I must admit I was going to read up on castration too! 

Tis the wall of death: a lot of dogs (including Brodie ) do this no matter their age

[happydog]

Sorry, I have no extra advice to offer mofi, although I am sure you will get some soon. I do agree with what michelle has said.

Oscar has these 'mad 5 minutes' where he suddenly runs round at 50 miles an hour and if the back door is open he goes flying outside round the garden back in the house and round and round...does Alfie do anything like that; I was wondering if that was a 'hormonal' thing with them at this age,

Er- not in my experience. Fern is nearly ten years old and she still still does it  . It seems to be perfectly normal behaviour for a cocker  .

[Jayne_S]

I'll just have to make sure the doors are open when he has his 'moments'......he went head first into my parents back door last week when he started going mad round the garden and they didn't realise the door had swung shut....bless him!!

[BabyB]

Oscar has these 'mad 5 minutes' where he suddenly runs round at 50 miles an hour and if the back door is open he goes flying outside round the garden back in the house and round and round...does Alfie do anything like that; I was wondering if that was a 'hormonal' thing with them at this age, I must admit I was going to read up on castration too! 

Tis the wall of death: a lot of dogs (including Brodie ) do this no matter their age

Our wall of death is up and down the stairs too if the baby gate's not shut

[mofi]

Yes Alfie does it too.  He seems to hear something we can't, bark at the front window and then run to the kitchen door to want to go out in the garden.  When I let him out he runs around the perimeter, tail in air barking.  As you all say I think they all do it.

My main issue is how to correct Alfie's aggression towards younger dogs.  I do pull him away if it gets too much but should I be telling him off as well?  I don't want to have to avoid other dogs as its still an important socialisation period for him but I also want to be able to handle it correctly.  I just though that maybe in the future neutering might help but then with his other issues of underconfidence I'm not sure if it will be the answer.

We've been going to dog training classes since Alfie was 14 weeks old and through training and advice he has slowly improved with people but it's a very slow process.  I wonder if he'll ever be confident and friendly.   

[Top Barks]

I am the trainer working with Oscar but the problem is that he is very reactive towards me in the house making it hard to do any work with him in there. He is in a state of conflict when I enter the house as he wants to come and take food off me but is not confident enough to do it so barks and backs off.
There is no quick fix to Oscars anxiety and I doubt in his case that castration is the answer.

[mofi]

How is the best way to help him overcome his underconfidence with people?  Also his bullying of younger dogs?  It is such a shame because he is such a lovable dog with us I just wish we could bring out the best in him.

[Jayne_S]

I hope you can get some advice on how to help Alfie with his confidence.  I think when there is behaviour your not sure about it gets you looking at all avenues and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another; I find reading the various forums on here certainly helps to see other perspectives and gives food for thought to maybe try a different approach!

[mofi]

Sorry to resurrect this post but I don't know which way to turn!

Since my last post we decided to take Alfie to the Vets for some advice.  I was hoping that he would at least listen to us and refer us to a Behaviourist but he seemed to switch off after I said Alfie had shown dominance and aggression to some younger dogs and recommended neutering.  Then after a few months if he was still showing behavioural issues to go down the Behaviourist route.  I actually took a list in with me of his issues but he wasn't interested in either me reading them out or him looking at it!

When I went to dog training that night we have a Behaviourist there who has known Alfie since he was 14 weeks old so when I told her the Vets recommendation she agreed with him.  Although to be fair to her she didn't have the time to listen properly to his recent behaviour.

In the last 3 weeks I have been taking Alfie on different walks and he has met many different dogs, hardly the same one twice and I have had no problems with him, so I've come to the conclusion that it was a one off dog that he didn't like.  He enjoys meeting new dogs and will smell them and then play or walk away.  I've even worked on his recall when he sometimes just sits there and stares at some dogs, in case there will be any confrontation and he always comes back to me.

So.... dogs don't seem to be the problem.  It's people!  Since his first walk on the lead he has shown fearful behaviour and we have tried not to overwhelm him and let him meet new people slowly by offering treats to him and blocking anybody that approaches too quickly.  As the months have passed he has still not liked people approaching and will react by barking at them to go away.  He will accept treats at times.

Sorry to ramble on but things have reached a head in the last couple of days and I really don't know what to do.  On Saturday my nextdoor neighbour approached him front on and went to stroke the top of his head.  He barked at her and when she didn't back off he lunged at her snapping.  I know I was in the wrong as I should have asked her to approach slowly and at his level but it all happened so quickly.

Today though he turned on me.  Usually he is such a lovable dog with the family and I've never had any concerns that he would do this and I've tried to replay in my head what happened as it was very frightening.  All I can say is that I was reaching down over him to pick off a leaf, which I have done many times before and he just turned snapping and grabbed my hand.  He didn't actually bite but I know that he wasn't far off.  He didn't seem to know when to stop and kept snapping at me and then turned on the 2 or 3 dogs which were close by and usually gets on with.  I managed to grab him with the help of my Dad to put him on the lead but he grabbed my Dads arm and was still snapping at both of us.  When I walked him home close to tears he could tell I was upset and trotted alongside me beautifully and has settled down in the kitchen.

He hasn't been eating well for a couple of weeks and has hardly touched anything the last 3 days, so maybe his stomach is tender, but am I just making excuses for him? 

I have decided to register at a different Vets in the hope that they will listen to me properly and get to the bottom of this and have an appointment today at 4pm.  So maybe I should just wait and see what they say but felt I had to get this off my chest to anybody that will listen to me. 

[Karma]

You definately need to talk to your vet and tell them that you will not be getting him neutered until you have had some behavioural advise.  Tell him it is his behaviour around people you are concerned about, as his lack of confidence seems to be growing.

The incident when he went for you, he probably panicked by you reaching over him - and if he didn't actually bite, then he didn't intend to, so he showed good restraint there (I know it is hard to believe when you are in the situation, but if a dog intends to bite, the don't miss!!).  Has the vet checked his eyesight??

Also, yes, if he has a tender tummy, he is more likely to react to stressors...

You really need to make sure no-one approaches him head on or pats his head - these are 2 of the most intimidating things we as humans do to dogs...  better to approach in a curve, and just drop a treat by him as they pass.... (or throw it towards him as they pass further away, if he isn't comfortable with them close)  once he is comfortable with this, they can progress to letting him sniff the hand with the treat in, before giving it.... then getting him to sniff a hand, then produce a treat from a pocket.... don't let strangers fuss him at all until he has shown a huge improvement in his confidence....

If I have to remove undergrowth from Honey I always ask her to wait, first, so I don't startle her - this may help Alfie...

[bibathediva]

I would get him throughly examined by the vet when you go....it could be a number of things wrong with him that are making him behave like this,if you can rule out any medical issues then i would be thinking about getting a  behaviourist in  I dont think neutering is the answer at the minute because he is fearful it could make it worse 
Vets are there do deal with medical problems and most are not qualified in behavioural issues 

[BabyB]

How did you get on with your new vet?