CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Karma on March 23, 2017, 08:28:19 PM
-
<sneaks back into the forum like I've never been away....>
Honey had her health MOT recently.
Apparently her blood test showed that her "kidney levels" were a little high. They want to check again in a few weeks.
I've now, also, managed to get the urine sample to the vets, so that may well show something...
Any experiences on what this might actually mean (the vet nurse called in the middle of me making dinner with Amelia (youngest child with additional needs) in full hyperactive mood, so I wasn't really in a position to process exactly what they were saying!!!!
-
I don't have experience with high kidney levels, but my girl had high liver levels on her last blood tests. Not very high, but higher than they should be ideally. The vet explained that when they get older sometimes this happens, and as long as they don't show symptoms it is just about monitoring the levels regularly. So it turned out to not be as scary as I thought. Hopefully it's the same for you, something passing or something manageable. You could probably call them up and ask to have it explained again if you are left with questions, most clinics will have time set aside for phonecalls to clients :) I brought a short list of question for the follow-up blood test so I wouldn't forget to ask, they were amused, but not annoyed at my preparation ;) Hope you get better values next time!
-
How old is Honey?
Kidney reading of "high" doesn't really tell us anything.
Kidney failure is an issue for older dogs, and it appears Cockers in particular. LOSS of 50% kidney function is the definition of kidney failue over here in Czech.
What you've been told could have serious implications. If I were you, I'd call the vet and ask him to explain again in a way that I can understand... and I'd keep asking questions until I did!
But most of all I hope that its just a small issue that can be easily treated.
J
-
Hello Karma, I'm back too, after losing Bobby two years ago with protein losing nephropathy, which means blocked filtering in part of the kidneys. It was picked up when I took him In for bad breath thinking he had tooth trouble. His levels were high. He had Fortikor and a special boring diet, but I was told dialysis was the only way, and it wasn't available. I'm still devastated, he was eight. Some dogs live a long life with other kidney problems, and their BUN numbers improve well. But the usual vet reply is that they can't predict the the progress. There is a Yahoo Kidney group, which I joined, but it was complicated to get on, and very American, so not much use with converting it to metric. Sumava has recently posted recipes for home made kidney diets, which are brilliant. I think Nutriment do a decent wet food too.
See if the vet can be more specific, But mine said the only way was to do a biopsy, which isn't nice, and wouldn't change the recommended treatment anyway. Keep catching the wee wee for testing! I hope the numbers go down .
-
Well, the vet called with the urine results.
Apparently losing protein in the urine, with no sign of UTI.
Advised to start a special kidney diet. I said I'd do my own research rather than pick up their prescription diet, as we raw feed.
She didn't give any numbers (may go in and ask for a print out), but wants to see if diet will bring level down. She did say it was the Urea that was high in the blood.
Honey will be 9 in August.
-
From what they have said and reading around, I suspect Honey has Protein Losing Nephropathy.
Advised low protein/low sodium diet for a month, then retest and if levels haven't reduced look at medication.
That seems to be the text book vetinary response for PLN.
So it would appear we *do* need to reduce protein.
I guess easiest way is going to be via treat - she currently has dehydrated duck strips, fish and meaty bites etc for most of her treats. So swapping those out for a vegetable based treat should dramatically reduce her protein intake without upsetting the actual raw feeding we do.
She doesn't actually eat a lot (1 chicken wing and 3 nature menu nuggets a day or 1/3 lamb heart and 3 nature menu nuggets or 5-6 chicken hearts and 3 nature menu nuggets). She gets the veggie nuggets to bulk out so she's not starving.
I guess swapping to one of the nature menu options with rice in will help, while keeping a good nutritional balance.
She's a very fussy dog (until she's bin raiding!) so I don't want to mess too much - but obviously don't want her diet to do her harm!
-
Hi Karma,
This is an older dog ailment. Sounds like you're getting on top of it now.
Its probably a good idea to prepare for some liquid accidents in the house as they have a problem controlling water intake and output when afflicted with this. (of course).
We were prescribed a special Hills granulated product for Betty. It was an expensive waste of time as the old girl would starve to death rather than touch it.
Your research is putting you on the right track for best feeding practice. Our old girl was diagnosed when she was 14 years old. Once we'd got her diet sorted she continued living an active life to the ripe old age of 16 1/2.... and in the end it was a lung infection that was her undoing, not her kidneys.
Wishing you both all the best.
-
Thank you.
Just done a quick check of protein levels in all the foods she regularly has.
With a few little tweaks we should be able to bring it down to a similar level to the hills renal diet wet food, so the vet should be able to see that we are reducing protein even though we aren't taking up the prescription diet. :)
-
I am sorry I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I really hope the change to Honey's food helps.
-
Hi Karma, I don't have any experience of Honey's ailment, but just wanted to wish her well.
-
Hi, can't offer any advice either but I think you're very sensible getting to grips with the diet yourself.
Just wanted to wish you all the best and hope that Honey's condition improves with the new regime!
-
Here's a link to an article about how blood readings from raw fed dogs may differ from those of kibble fed dogs and may not necessarily mean that the raw fed dog has a health problem. Don't know if it will help or not, but I think it's worth a look, just in case.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/normal-blood-values-and-raw-fed-dogs/
-
That's a really interesting article, Elaine, thank you. Certainly something to consider. The changes we are making to diet are actually minimal having looked closely at her intake. The main thing being stopping the dried duck fillets, which isn't a bad idea anyway. Will certainly look closely at the actual blood results before considering medication, though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Interesting article. But one of the main concerns with raw feeding from a vet point of view is how the high protein content food will put extra stress on the kidney and liver. The worry is that we do not know enough about the potential long term effects of having these organs work harder than normal. Proving that raw fed dogs have higher values doesn't take away from the fact that this may actually be harmful in the long run. And I'm always sceptical about the "feed them what they were built to eat" argument. Dogs have been eating whatever they can get their paws on of human leftovers since domestication. Even wolves will eat the stomach content of herbivores, berries, roots etc. Canines are not strictly carnivorous and should not have as high protein level in their food as strict carnivores like felines. Not saying I'm against raw feeding, but there is a lot of information about it online that is onesided.
-
The Hill's R/D wet food is, I think, 15% protein.
Her chicken wing is 17%, but the nature's menu nuggets are 14% (for the meat ones - I suspect there are some varieties with lower protein content than the one in our freezer currently, and we'll change to those once we've finished this bag) and 9% for the veg ones (she gets 3 of each, as she's prone to being tubby so we bulk out her food with the veggie ones!). She normally gets a chicken wing in the morning and the nuggets in the afternoon.
We have been feeding heart a couple of times a week, which is much higher in protein, so we will reduce this and possibly give her tripe instead (13% protein I think) saving heart for a very rare treat (and gently cooking it which, apparently, reduces the protein levels...)
If, when I see the results, there's just a slight rise in BUN and no increase in creatinine (sp?) then we might allow a very slightly higher protein meal every now and again, but I'd rather err on the side of caution (while not abandoning the raw diet as she's done brilliantly on it).
Likewise we are not stopping her bedtime biscuit (25% protein) as this is the only thing that stopped her being sick overnight - and she needs a good quality biscuit as cheaper ones caused her to dig holes in her skin. But other treats through the day will be replaced with fresh pepper or carrot, or dehydrated sweet potato etc.
I obviously very much respect the vetinary opinion that we need to reduce protein (though, of course, the other suggestion is limit sodium which is very low already in a raw food diet, so that's got to be good), but know our vets don't know too much about the raw feeding and always like to do my own research. In doing that, I will read vetinary articles suggesting prescription diet is the only way to go alongside raw feeding articles suggesting that whole prey model is the only good way to feed and there's no need to reduce protein in kidney issues, and I will try and find the middle ground that reduces the strain on her kidneys while keeping the benefits of her raw food. :) (We are constantly being told how good her teeth are, for example!)
I had noticed she was drinking a lot more, so that does fit with her kidney's causing some problems - though she's not really urinating any more at the minute... so hopefully we're fairly early on in any problems. :)
Though if anyone can work out a way to tell her she shouldn't sneak through the baby gate on the stairs when the children are going through it to raid the cat's food, I'd be very grateful!!!! >:D
-
Sounds like you will find the right balance. Good idea to use the vet diets as a reference when adjusting your own. No, I would not expect a vet to know the best way to put together a raw food diet. It takes a lot of research to be able to cover all nutritional needs as well as adjusting for different conditions. A vet wouldn't have time to do that, nor would they prioritize it when there are trustworthy diets on the market allready :) Unfortunately vets sometimes see dogs come in to clinics suffering from malnutrition after unbalanced home made diets, another reason for their scepticism to raw feeding. Not everyone has enough knowledge to make sure that even micronutritional needs are covered and not given in excess. Your dog is lucky to have a dedicated owner willing to do the research!
Maybe put the cat food on a high and narrow shelf? Somewhere the cats can jump up but the dog can't :)
-
The accepted way to compare the protein levels of dog foods is by dry weight analysis, which looks at the protein in the dry element of the food. This link explains and gives examples https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dry-matter-basis/
On the face of it, wet foods (raw, and also processed cans and trays) appear to have lower levels of protein when you look at the labels. The labels also show around 70% moisture in wet foods, and around 10% moisture in kibbles. When you do a dry weight analysis the protein levels appear to change dramatically. The wet foods will have a much higher % of protein in their dry matter than kibbles.
But that doesn't take account of the amount of the food actually fed to the dog. Dogs fed kibble are typically fed less (in weight) than dogs fed a wet food. When you compare the actual weight of food you have to ignore the dry weight analysis and go back to looking at the labels. Then you often find that the difference in the actual weight of protein fed to kibble fed dogs and that fed to wet food fed dogs is minimal.
As an example:
I used to feed James Wellbeloved kibble to William. Looking at the JWB guidelines and from memory, I think he used to have 200g per day. Dry Weight analysis works out at 20% protein. The product information states as packaged it contains 22% protein. So William was eating 44g protein per day (200g x 22% = 44).
William has been raw fed for about 7 years and has 300g per day. A typical food is Natural Instinct Natural Chicken. Dry Weight Analysis works out at 42.8% protein. The product information states as packaged it contains 14.1% protein, so William is eating 42.3g protein per day (300g x 14.1% = 42.3).
It will of course vary from food to food. But just using Dry Weight Analysis to compare foods doesn't give an accurate comparison. You have to look at the weight of food actually fed.
I hope that's clearer than mud :005:
-
Yes - that's why I used the wet food from Hills rather than the kibble - I figured it would give the best comparison without having to do silly amounts of maths. :005: :D
-
(That is to say, I figure the moisture content should be about similar - and very definately similar between the Hill's wet food and the nature's menu pouches we use if we've failed to defrost anything.... )
-
Bob wouldnt eat the Hills renal, so I followed some internet home made recipes. The problem as ever , is balancing salt, phosphorous and calcium. I gave tins to the PDSA.
Do check out the Nutriment one, it smells better!
By the way, has she been coughing bile at night at all? I mentioned this to my vet before he was diagnosed, but was given short shrift. Also they told me he might have arthritis because he kept looking at his thigh/kidney area after running. Then bad breath and weight loss. Needless to say I have changed vets again.
-
She did for a while - the bedtime biscuit sorted it out but, now you mention it, she has done on a couple of occassions recently.
And her breathe isn't as good as it was. :-\
-
Bea had slightly raised levels in December , she had pancreatitis at the time and spent a couple of nights at the Vets, initially the Kidney levels where not a concern but after a few days of comming home she started being sick again so she had a Scan.
The results showed calcification in both Kidneys, this is result of her having another health problem which can result in raised calcium levels in the blood, this was then deposited in her kidneys.
My Vet advised to keep her on her usual diet and they would monitor her, I decided to put her on filtered water and as I home cook for her she would have organic veg with chicken or turkey etc 3 times a day.
I decided I was going to reduce the amount of toxins in her system as much as I can, she is doing well but there is so much information out there which can be a little confusing at times.
I hope your girl feels better soon.
Sharon.
-
No advice to offer I'm afraid, just wanted to sat Hi, nice to hear from you, if anyone can sort it then , it's you. :luv:
-
Ok - having now been to the vet and got the actual figures, just wondering if anyone can shed any light on them.
The Blood results were not that abnormal - creatinine was within normal range at 92umol/L, and BUN was only slightly high at 11.2mmol/L.
However the Urine sample is noted at protein >20.0++++ - I'm guessing the ++++ means that it's very high, but can't work out what the actual number refers to.
On continuing to look at results, her urine specific gravity seems to be low (1.005) and the sediment showed casts - both of which are further indicators of kidney issues.
It suprises me, with these results, that they have not suggested doing a Protein/Creatinine ratio analysis - and I'll be asking them to do this when we go back in a couple of weeks.
-
Usually lab results are not too helpful without reference values and definitely you need the unit. Stuff like that depends on what type of test was done and what device was used. It is possible they used some type of dipstick to test the urine. They would then compare the colour on the stick to a chart to read the results. https://goo.gl/images/yZz0FL For this test in the link >20 ++++ is in g/l and the highest value the test can measure. I would set up an appointment so the vet can explain what it actually means, or if you are going in for another test you can ask about it then :)
-
Thank you - the blood results all have the reference values, but obviously it was the urine sample that was the most abnormal, so that's helpful! :)
-
Hello Claire,
Just wondering how Honey is now? :D
-
We were in for repeat tests on Tuesday, so the results should be back tomorrow....
Will update....
What did seem concerning was that it was incredibly hard to get any kind of urine sample - even first thing in the morning all I got was a couple of mls, and the vet confirmed that it wasn't that she was just holding on due to me trying to get a sample - her bladder wasn't full... so it looks like she's producing a very small amount of urine, especially considering her increased water intake.
-
The update will be interesting. Jinley is having liver and kidney function blood tests on Monday after showing to have crystals in her urine. Also fed raw but have been guided by the Nutriment Low Purine ingredients and have been giving a breakfast of a chicken wing then dinner which includes turkey, tripe, chicken livers, a sprat, coconut oil, Apple cider vinegar, and hydrangea root.
Did you change her diet?
-
We cut out the dried meat treats and replaced with veggies.
And we have reduced the amount of heart meat she gets, supplementing with a few more veggie cubes and a bit of tripe (which is apparently one of the best kidney diet raw foods out there).
Vet was happy with the small tweak at the minute, as bloods were not at a concerning level..
-
And apparently everything is absolutely fine. They want to check up in 6 months, but no cause for concern. [emoji3]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
And apparently everything is absolutely fine. They want to check up in 6 months, but no cause for concern. [emoji3]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Great news :D
-
Very relieved for you. I think your common sense feeding and regular checks will go well.
I briefly joined the Yahoo kidney group, but gave up. It takes a week to be approved non- troll, then I found that it was totally American, and all the test scores were in different scales, and food measurements in cups or imperial, not metric. They also medicate far more. Too confusing, so I gave up.
-
Yes - it's a big relief.
We will probably stick to the diet tweaks, as not only does it reduce the overall protein without compromising our raw food approach, but it also allowed her to lose a little more weight (which, as she's always been a bit prone to chubbiness, is a good thing in her case!).