CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Spanielcuddler on November 28, 2016, 12:16:24 PM
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Not sure if this is the right board - but as he is not a pup, I have put this problem here.
Dexter is over 2 now and will not have a poo at night before bedtime; therefore he chooses to do it in the kitchen in the middle of the night. Not every night, but a lot of times during each week. He does not do it when he take him out either, so not even a mid evening walk would help. He is let out regularly during the day and evening, he can go out any time he asks.
At his age now, he shouldn't be doing this ... there seems no logic to it either - same routine, no change there, same food, (Forthglade chicken and brown rice/veg wet food) some nights he is clean, we think it was just a blip then out of the blue he will start all over again. Try as we might, we cannot make him poo last thing at night or even during the evening. Despite having another cocker, whom he stands there and watches having a poo!
Anyone any ideas? We think he whimpers in the night, not sure... but so softly we cannot hear him to get up and let him out. We don't want to get into that routine either though! Had dogs all our lives but never had this problem before. We also clean the floor thoroughly afterwards.
Even wondering whether to change to a low residue food... Burns wet food perhaps... in the hope that there would be less urge to defecate.
Or even putting him back in a crate - but then we would be woken each night presumably and that routine would still persist.
Anyone any advice to get him out of this habit and perform during the evening? He is fed at 4pm by the way. We did try feeding him later a long time ago but he was getting us up in the night then, so the vet suggested an earlier feed time to see if it produced results by 11pm! Trouble is, he just doesn't want to poo before he goes to bed! Grrrr! Despite having another cocker with him showing how it should be done!
Thanks!
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Hi and welcome! I've never had this with any of my dogs so can only make guesses at a solution, but hopefully someone else can help.
Has Dexter always done this? Does he ever poo outside? If so, I wonder if you couldn't give him a verbal signal like "toilet" and a treat as he does it and then once he's associated the word with the deed you might be able to get him to do it on command when you take him out in the evening. We did this from day one.
How often is he fed? You could try reducing the later meal and giving more in the morning maybe or changing the food altogether but I do wonder if that really is the problem. In my experience dogs don't like to soil their own territory, - (my first dog was so upset when he'd had an accident he actually tried to eat it up before I managed to stop him), so I'm wondering if a) its a medical issue or b) a sort of protest - is he lonely, cold or could something else be upsetting him?
Hope you can sort it soon, - keep us posted and good luck!
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Not had this with any of my dogs other than when they were very ill and struggling with old age etc.
Have a thought or two, you mention that you think Dexter might whimper and you don't hear him, could a baby monitor work, only thing is if he starts to think you are getting up is this going to be a rod for your back!
Could you try feed him at 2pm for a few days see if this helps.
Also bizzy lizzy mentions a protest/upsetting him - my friend in the States had a small poodle who she took from UK, he went from being a fussed lap dog in a house to being kept outside in the yard - due to her father in law staying with them for several months and believing dogs remain outside, when the old man left the dog went back to the way it used to be living in the house...but he would jump on her bed and wee and poo. he was no longer the lovely clean dog as in UK.
Do hope someone comes along with a similar experience to help.
Finally
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Hi and welcome! I've never had this with any of my dogs so can only make guesses at a solution, but hopefully someone else can help.
Has Dexter always done this? Does he ever poo outside? If so, I wonder if you couldn't give him a verbal signal like "toilet" and a treat as he does it and then once he's associated the word with the deed you might be able to get him to do it on command when you take him out in the evening. We did this from day one.
How often is he fed? You could try reducing the later meal and giving more in the morning maybe or changing the food altogether but I do wonder if that really is the problem. In my experience dogs don't like to soil their own territory, - (my first dog was so upset when he'd had an accident he actually tried to eat it up before I managed to stop him), so I'm wondering if a) its a medical issue or b) a sort of protest - is he lonely, cold or could something else be upsetting him?
Hope you can sort it soon, - keep us posted and good luck!
Hi, well house training went well so no he's not always done it, it's just been within the last six months or so. He's fed twice, once in the morning and once at 4pm. He's not lonely or cold; nothing to upset him - he shares the room with another cocker aged 4 and they're very close. Can't think of anything that he could be protesting about.
He goes to toilet fine, day or evening but just refuses to poo in the evening for some reason.
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Hi Jaysmumagain
We thought of a baby monitor but then had the same hesitation as you mention - getting him into that routine wouldn't be good!
We're that fed up of getting up in the middle of the night that it seems easier just to clear up in the morning LOL! We wondered about crating him again but that may produce the same routine of having to get up each night and him thinking that's normal.
I'm wondering if a low residue food may be the answer- like Burns wet food.
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Just a thought, but could you maybe start to make his evening meal a bit later on in the day. That way it will not 'reappear' quite so soon?
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Just a thought, but could you maybe start to make his evening meal a bit later on in the day. That way it will not 'reappear' quite so soon?
Just googled the time it takes to digest food and it seems to be between 7 and 10 hours typically, so you're right, feeding him later rather than earlier might be better. Hope you can sort it, must be so frustrating!
Have you ever considered raw feeding? Not everyone's choice I know, but it definately produces less pooh! ;) :005:
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Thanks! However we were feeding them at 5 but brought it forward to four after he started poohing in the night... hoping it would reappear before bed time at 11. Alas that didn't work. Don't know what time he poohs but it's before 5am.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
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Hi, Rosie is only 1 but after months of clean nights She started to poo at night.Started after a late puppy class that threw Her feed/ poo routine completely.She would poo for several nights then We would have a run of clean nights then She would start all over again.I eventually moved Her tea time to 7.30 ,and set my alarm for 5.30 am DIdnt put Her out then( didnt want Her to get into a routine of 5 am waking) just curled up on the settee(she sleeps downstairs and just taps the door when She wants to go out, impossible to hear upstairs) and waited for Her to tap. After a few days the shouts to go out moved to after 7 and We have been fine since.She now has Her tea a bit earlier and, touch wood, has been fine since.
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Thanks Ambler54.
Glad things settled with Rosie, obviously due to a change in routine because of the class.
We were up at three am again last night, he'd already poohed but then whimpered and we heard him, he still wanted to go out and do more though! 8am he was in the garden again doing yet more then scooting when he came in. We now think it may be anal gland related but not sure so he's off to the vet today. If the glands are full, would this make him poo more? I'll update you all after the vet has seen him.
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Vet check sounds like a good idea.
They are all different, but in case it helps, we feed Henry a mix of Burns kibble and Millie's Wolfheart wet food. Fed at 1pm and 7pm (he doesn't care for breakfast but gets treats on his walk so a sort of mini breakfast at about 9:30am). He poops once a day, always in the morning.
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Thanks Londongirl.
Our two are mithering for their tea from about 2pm onwards so it would be murder if we told them they couldn't have it till 7pm LOL! Sounds a good idea though!
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Hi. From time to time my Archie has done this. He sleeps with me so gets me up and I let him out. It's often around 3am. He could go for months pooing normally (which for him is actually just once a day in the morning even though he is on three meals!) and then suddenly he would have a week or two of getting me up in the night. I also noticed that he had a gurgly tummy and occasional bouts of seeming to feel uncomfortable through the night. Every so often he had a full on bout of colitis (very poorly, sick and bloody poos.) After a barrage of tests - all negative - he was put on a strict salmon and potato diet. He has been on it for nearly a year and has not had me up in the night at all. He is also wet fed.
Perhaps your Dexter is similar and just has a bit of a sensitive tum. Chicken is an absolute no-no for Archie. You could try the salmon variety of his food (or similar like naturediet/wainwright/fishmongers) and see if it makes any difference.
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Thanks Archie Bean - I had heard that fish was very good for dogs. He has been fine on the Chicken and Brown Rice and Veg, from Forthglade, but it's worth bearing in mind certainly. Hope Archie is still doing well.
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Archiebean mentioned the fish route, well Ollie has had anal gland problems and was a constant bum sniffer :shades:
First I went for Natura which was chicken and pot-veg went food-wow it was like Mount Vesuvius, with him so back to the shovel and drawing board
Then went with the fish route by giving him Naturediet sensitive which is salmon with veg and rice, then there is a fish one too and chicken etc. It is mixed into his dry food. But while he loves this food its the salmon one that has him licking his bowl all around the floor.
He is so different on this food, if you told me food would make a difference I would not believe you - he has almost forgotten his rear end needs checking :011: . He is nine now and no signs of acting his age, I have fed him twice for years late morning and 6 ish and his clock tells me food.
While not like Dexter with the night issues, I just wanted to add that sometimes the food can make such a difference.
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thanks Jaysmumagain! He has been ok on the chicken diet since a pup but who knows... maybe things change! If it makes a difference it is worth doing. Our last dog, a border collie, had the fish based food from Burns and did very well on it.
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OK we have been to the vet - anal glands were not that full but she emptied them. (He has just had a poo now! LOL!)
She could not see why he might be poohing so much on the food and quantity he is on, but suggested we find a low residue wet food to change to. We feed Forthglade which says it is 0.5% crude fibre. We thought Burns wet food was low residue but it looks like only the dry Burns food is low in fibre, as the wet food Penlan Farm range is way higher fibre than Forthglade.
We need then, to read up some more on a suitable wet food to change him to and see if it makes a difference but to be honest, Forthglade is not that high in fibre to begin with!
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Best of luck! hope you've found the answer, a good night's sleep and a clean kitchen in the morning!!
Keep is posted!!
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thanks bizzylizzie! I hope so...!
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Alas I cannot report that it was a clean kitchen overnight last night!
In fact there were four, yes FOUR piles of poo to pick up. No doubt having his anal glands emptied may have had an effect on him, but even so... generally speaking so much seems to come out of the rear end - far more than goes in the front end during the day, LOL!
Just been out with him in the garden now, he will only have a wee, he absolutely refuses to do anything else and he hasnt done one since this morning so hey ho.... mopping up again tomorrow morning no doubt. We are at our wits end with him and the vet didn't know what to suggest either.
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Just an afterthought - you don't think something outside has spooked him into not wanted to crouch down to make a poo ? (a vunerable position if there are ghosts and bogeymen out there). There was a thread on here earlier this year about a dog that suddenly refused to go outside in the dark.
We fixed up a light in the garden for Humphrey - more for me than for him, so I could see where he is. Wondered if a short walk last thing at night might move things along a bit?......
🤔
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Funny BizzyLizzy is on my wavelength as I was wondering if it was the dark and also the cold nights.
As for low residue foods, think it is worth trying buying a few to try. From what I understand it is between 50 -70 protein and veg or potato or veg and rice. I would looked at this website https://www.naturediet.co.uk.
I get the standard wet food which is 60% meat or there is 60% fish, it list the rice veg etc on each type. I dont buy direct just got two sensitive ones to try - stockists on there site. Then there's a company called Lily's Kitchen that looks good, but to be honest the ease of getting Naturediet for me and the cost I get it at - and of course the other two main advantages of one happy cocker and one lighter shovel sway it.
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What was that about "great minds..." Julie? :005: :005:
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Thanks bizzylizzy and jaysmumagain - he isn't bothered in the dark, he doesn't even mind fireworks. So I don't think he is spooked out there. Good thought though! He never usually 'goes' when we are out on walks, he prefers to come home and do it! Strange dog.... LOL. Guess what though, it was a clean kitchen this morning!!
No logic to it whatsoever. Thanks for the hint re the food - we have used NatureDiet in the past with other dogs. Its fibre content though is higher than the one he is on (Forthglade) so that may count that one out. Lilys Kitchen... that is so expensive... with two dogs to feed it would be very costly for us but we could try it I guess. We shall explore all the food review sites again!
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Hi, Try the Forthglade salmon and potato, no grains , no rice.Had endless problems with Rosie and taking Her off all grains was suggested by the vet, definately made a difference.She is also on ( or was now on local shops own make) Barking Heads kibble salmon and potato.A friend who is a dog trainer has a pup who wont poo out on walks at all, Her other dog wont use the garden , She has tried all sorts of things to get them to do both with no success lol.Good luck
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Thanks Ambler54! That must be so annoying, one not going whilst on walks and one not going in the garden! LOL!
Thanks for your suggestion... we may well do that. Actually, we had a second night last night when he didnt poo.... crossing fingers it goes on but it will no doubt return again. Obviously something going on within him, I don't think it is behavioural.
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fingers crossed for another poop free night ;)
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thank you! We have now achieved three poop free nights since he had his anal glands done. They were not that full so we don't know if it's coincidence or not, but woo hoo!
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:banana: :banana:
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:D
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I won't keep doing this as it will become boring but just wanted to let you know that after 3 poop free nights, it ended last night.... another mess to clean up!
Nothing changed, no routine changed, nothing has spooked him, who knows what it can be. Thanks for all the help, if we find something that banishes this forever I will let you know! Yet to try some other food so maybe that will work. I just don't understand the randomness and lack of logic to it all.
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A cocker conundrum, so to speak!........🤔
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Its very frustrating when You know they can go all night.Are the good nights after days of longer walks? As a pup, one that didnt quite grasp the going all night thing for quite a while, We never had any over night accidents when We were away in the camper van and I never had to get up in the night with Her either .Came to the conclusion that after being out and about all day She was so tired it would have taken an earthquake to wake Her. Would get home thinking 'hooray, We've cracked it' but no.Good luck. Would like to know when He is ok and how, please.
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I think that this is something that can sometimes just become a habit for dogs and doesn't necessarily relate to the food given or timing of it, or anything more concerning medically. They get used to doing it so they just continue - but change the environment and they might just stop, as per Ambler54's experience with the campervan. The campervan also probably meant a smaller space which a dog would be less likely to mess in as they would be sleeping much closer to the mess. I wouldn't be that surprised if you changed the room that the dog slept in, SpanielCuddler, that this might possibly be enough to stop this if it is due to having formed a habit (but more risky depending on the different flooring! :005:). If you're happy to and not leaving the dog for long periods overnight I would definitely try crating and see what happens. Then you would have an idea if more of a habit, or really due to an inability to hold out to morning.
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Thanks Ambler54 - no nothing has been different, no longer walks or anything. We have racked our brains to think of any differing factors but there are none.
I will certainly let you know if we solve it and what the cause might have been!
Hoover - like you said, the difference in floor covering puts us off letting him sleep somewhere else e.g. the living room! We have two cockers and they would have to be together anyway if we did that. I was thinking it may be habit until out of the blue we get three poop free nights... which sort of indicates that it is not habit, it is down to bodily functions alone.
The vet doesn't think there is anything medically wrong... there are no stress factors that we can see .... it's a mystery. He is the first dog we have had that won't poop last thing at night, he will even watch our other dog do it and just refuse to do anything other than a wee. Very strange.
Thanks for your help - we did think of crating him but wondered if that would lead to a rod for our own backs, in that he may think it routine then to make a commotion when he gets caught short and wake us up every night in the early hours! Or would it be like puppy training all over again and get him to hold it in.. not sure. Certainly at the age of two and a half we shouldn't have to be going through this..... even though we love the bones of him!
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Have you tried keeping an insanely detailed diary of everything your dog does / eats /plays with every day for, say a week? There might just be something in there.
Crating might be worth trying. Do you know exactly what time the poop happens, when it does? Crating might at least pinpoint that. Or start to break the habit if it is one. Just because it doesn't happen every night doesn't mean it's not habit. Maybe there is something that wakes him, just not every night, but he has a habit of pooping when it does.
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I would say that just because he can have 3 clean nights does not mean it's not a habit. It's maybe to do with the possibility that he feels comfortable about doing it and doesn't really feel any need not to, so he does not inhibit his urge to - even if the urge is not particularly strong. For other dogs it would be extremely distressing for them to make a mess, so they hold off from going until they are outside unless it's more of an emergency. A bit like humans -we might feel an urge to go in all manner of places but obviously we hold off until we can get to a toilet! If as young children we had got into habits of just going to the toilet on the floor and there were no real problems about doing this and it was just routinely cleaned up by someone else we might just persist in doing it, because we felt the urge and it had become a bit of a habit and there was no reason not to.
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Thanks Londongirl and Hoover.
A diary is a good idea, thank you!
No idea what time he is doing it, but it is in the early hours I think.
Clean night last night...
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just wondering if something is scaring him during the night.
could you leave a night light on just for a while .
I had a nervous staffy that would poop when left ( day and night). But atleast he would do his best to eat the evidence :020:
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LOL. Thanks Min. No, as far as we know, nothing is scaring him. If there were noises outside our other Cocker would bark, that's for sure.
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P'haps the other cocker's MAKING him do it, so that he's the baddy and the other one's the goody!! :rofl1: ( My older sister used to be like that - "Muuum, look what Jayne's done!" :lol:)
:rofl1: :rofl1:
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LOL!!!! I wonder...!
Last night he did two huge poohs.... I am sure there is more coming out than goes in the other end! So we were mopping up at 7am this morning again. He looks very wary of us too, scared of getting told off so he knows it's wrong, the housetraining hasn't disappeared from his mind.
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We had a recent experience with our re homed springer - not disimilar to what you are going through. Archie came to us & for the first few nights was fine then he would mess in the kitchen overnight. To cut a long story short he was stressed at being on his own in the kitchen (he'd previously been with 2 other dogs) so now he sleeps on the floor next to OH :luv: no problem at all. he wanted company at night.
I know ours was a different circumstance but might he be wanting human company not just doggie company.
I do sympathise it's soul destroying coming down every morning to a huge mess - clean up & out with bucket & mop- before you've even had a morning cuppa. Hope you can get this issue sorted.
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Thanks woodlander.... he is a very needy dog actually, always wanting cuddles. Hence my name, LOL! He doesn't have any separation anxiety though.
Getting ready for bed now - who knows whether we shall wake up to a mess or not again.... and like you say, all before that very important first cuppa of the day!
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Hi Spanielcuddler,
Hows the night time pooh situation?Have you cracked it?
Thought of you as I was picking up a nightime accident from Rosie a couple of nights ago.Knew there was something waiting for me as I came down the stairs, no not the smell, but a normally mental dog was sitting at the bottom of the stairs very subdued.Shes been ok since , thank goodness, as last time it became a habit that had to be broken.
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Having to clear up every morning is totally horrible.
It's might be worth having a word with the vet to check that there aren't underlying issues that could be causes the problem.
We have issues with Darwin, as due to the nerve damage caused by his IVDD. He no longer has full control and things are unlikely to improve. It's just a case of finding a routine that works to manage his bowel movements and stick with it. In the last 2 months we have managed a 5 day run with no accidents in the house. But then you'll have a couple of days with several accidents a day!