Recall getting worse - is it me or him?

[Londongirl]

I've started long line training to reinforce my whistle training for recall. Also, following the advice in Pippa Mattheson's Total Recall book, I've started having Henry on and off the normal lead during our walk, whereas before he would have spent most of the time off. I've been doing this for about a week and his recall off the lead has got a lot worse than when he was off all the time. He goes further and takes longer to come back. This morning he completely ignored me for a good five minutes when I was asking him to come back. He looked at me and went the other way, and if I moved towards him, he moved further away. I did my usual trick of walking off at a brisk pace, which normally has him scampering back - nothing. His recall hasn't been this bad since before I started the whistle training.

Is this because I've been having him on the lead more so he doesn't want to come back to me? I've been reinforcing 'check ins' so he gets a treat for showing up by my side, and letting him go again after a recall, not always putting him on the lead, so he shouldn't assume he's going on the lead every time I call him back.

Is this change a result of the new regime or just coincidence, especially as he's coming up to that difficult adolescent age? It's depressing to go backwards when his recall was getting so very good.

[Murphys Law]

I've got Total Recall and one bit of advice I find a bit contradictory. PM states that you should put your pup on, and let it off lead many times a walk.
But then she says that your recall signal should never be associated with anything negative. I'm sure that a dog would think being put back on a lead, when it has been happily running about, is negative.

I never blow my whistle when I want to put Millie back on her lead. She acsociates me taking her lead out with a tasty treat.

[Londongirl]

I never use my recall to put him on the lead either. It's not so much the recall whistle he's ignoring, it's that he's not staying as close or paying as much attention to me as he was before I started this on-off lead thing. I could generally get him to me just with a call and a bit of enthusiasm (followed through with a reward), but that has disappeared in the last week.

[Ben's mum]

I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all  the time until he got it.  I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option.  You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation

One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before.   Good luck 

[Londongirl]

When Henry isn't on the lead I don't (yet) use my recall command (whistle) so he doesn't get a chance to ignore it, unless he's already on his way back, full pelt. The problem is his behaviour off the lead has got worse since I started this on-off thing as recommended in PM's book. We had the check-ins and him staying closer and coming galloping back when I called his name, which was lovely. I was all ready to start 'proofing' with the long line the situations where I know he doesn't listen.

I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?

[bizzylizzy]

I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all  the time until he got it.  I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option.  You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation

One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before.   Good luck 

(We've got two pretty similar threads here - I had a similar question earlier, maybe they can be merged?) Anyway - just a question , how long did this all take with Ben? My trainer suggested 1 year but to be honest, the thought of not letting him have a free run for a year seems tough, -his recall has been very good up until recently, but it is an age thing I guess. If the recall doesn't work, do you reel him in or what do you do? (That was the question on the other thread). At what point did you decide the recall was "good enough" ?

[Pearly]

I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all  the time until he got it.  I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option.  You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation

One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before.   Good luck 

(We've got two pretty similar threads here - I had a similar question earlier, maybe they can be merged?) Anyway - just a question , how long did this all take with Ben? My trainer suggested 1 year but to be honest, the thought of not letting him have a free run for a year seems tough, -his recall has been very good up until recently, but it is an age thing I guess. If the recall doesn't work, do you reel him in or what do you do? (That was the question on the other thread). At what point did you decide the recall was "good enough" ?

A lot depends on how diligent you are, how firm you are/the level of tolerance you have and how consistent you are.  Coral is now into her 5 month of being on a long line but its starting to pay off. Yesterday at training she only attempted to run off once and that was to free hunt within arms reach - to be fair, the ground was full of scent so it was unlikely she would get far!

I would recommend seeking the help of a professional trainer rather than trying to do this on your own - its so easy to think "well she started back towards me on the third whistle and theres lots of scent to distract her....." Having been to a number of group sessions I couldn't believe just how many excuses we all make for our dogs poor obedience - and thats what it is - me included!

Every time you let your dog free hunt or 'bog-off' it will set the learning process back by at least a week. Please dont worry about your dog not getting to 'free run' he's self serving/rewarding and disobedient - once he's learned a bit more impulse control and is more obedient his reward will be plenty of off lead time 😉 No one said having a dog wouldbe easy but for those of us that have dogs with a high prey drive/hunt instinct it can be very hard work......

[Londongirl]

I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all  the time until he got it.  I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option.  You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation

One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before.   Good luck 

(We've got two pretty similar threads here - I had a similar question earlier, maybe they can be merged?) Anyway - just a question , how long did this all take with Ben? My trainer suggested 1 year but to be honest, the thought of not letting him have a free run for a year seems tough, -his recall has been very good up until recently, but it is an age thing I guess. If the recall doesn't work, do you reel him in or what do you do? (That was the question on the other thread). At what point did you decide the recall was "good enough" ?

Hi - I responded to your other thread but posted this as a slightly separate issue, about his behaviour off-lead deteriorating since I started long lead training.

[Londongirl]

Pearly - do you ever let Coral off the lead? Have you ever?

I'm not planning to work or show Henry or do trials. But I do want a dog I can trust off lead.

All of which is slightly off the point of my first question which was: is a sudden deterioration in his off-lead behaviour linked to me starting long line training and having him on and off the lead more often?

[Ben's mum]

I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?

Yes for some walks that meant the entire walk if we were in a situation where I would need a recall.  I needed to do this for about a month in total.  In order to use up excess energy I did more training and finding games e.g. I started giving at least one meal a day (dry food) thrown into the grass so he had to look for it which tried him out mentally.  To be honest Ben was 6 when I started and I was so stressed by all the running off he used to do, looking for food, chasing birds and finding things to roll in that for me it was worth having on a longline and I knew it wouldn't be for ever.   I was rewarded with a dog with a perfect recall who was a joy to take anywhere.  Its so sad now that he is deaf (13 yrs old)  that he no longer has any recall unless he his looking at me

[Londongirl]

I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?

Yes for some walks that meant the entire walk if we were in a situation where I would need a recall.  I needed to do this for about a month in total.  In order to use up excess energy I did more training and finding games e.g. I started giving at least one meal a day (dry food) thrown into the grass so he had to look for it which tried him out mentally.  To be honest Ben was 6 when I started and I was so stressed by all the running off he used to do, looking for food, chasing birds and finding things to roll in that for me it was worth having on a longline and I knew it wouldn't be for ever.   I was rewarded with a dog with a perfect recall who was a joy to take anywhere.  Its so sad now that he is deaf (13 yrs old)  that he no longer has any recall unless he his looking at me

A month seems very reasonable, given we have the basics down.

For a spaniel, Henry is USELESS at sniffing things out. If I drop treats in the garden he never finds them. Sometimes it takes him half a minute to find one I've dropped half an inch from his feet!

[bizzylizzy]

I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?

Yes for some walks that meant the entire walk if we were in a situation where I would need a recall.  I needed to do this for about a month in total.  In order to use up excess energy I did more training and finding games e.g. I started giving at least one meal a day (dry food) thrown into the grass so he had to look for it which tried him out mentally.  To be honest Ben was 6 when I started and I was so stressed by all the running off he used to do, looking for food, chasing birds and finding things to roll in that for me it was worth having on a longline and I knew it wouldn't be for ever.   I was rewarded with a dog with a perfect recall who was a joy to take anywhere.  Its so sad now that he is deaf (13 yrs old)  that he no longer has any recall unless he his looking at me

A month seems very reasonable, given we have the basics down.

For a spaniel, Henry is USELESS at sniffing things out. If I drop treats in the garden he never finds them. Sometimes it takes him half a minute to find one I've dropped half an inch from his feet!

I wouldn't worry about that !! that does at least give you the option of being able to put the socks somewhere where he can't find them!!!!!😂😂 sorry about confusing your thread by the way (I'm a master at confusuon!). It does sound as if we're experiencing the same thing with Henry and Humphrey - (maybe its a complott!)😉

[Londongirl]

Mysteriously, Henry can snuffle out a stray sock sooner than a piece of kibble.

We should DEFINTELY carry on comparing notes on our naughty boys. I'd say this thread is a sub-thread to yours. 

[bizzylizzy]

👍

[Redked]

I remember feeling really guilty when we had to use the lead more often but it's sometimes a necessity if you want the end results. As for why his behaviour has changed, I'd say it's just the Cocker cleverness; he has cottoned on to the fact that he now has to go back on his lead and (let's face it) he isn't going to like it as much as total freedom  There is also the possibility that this might have happened at this age anyway, without trying the long line as he could be starting to test the boundaries now he's an adolescent. It could be a coincidence?

In the end a totally reliable recall will be worth it as you will never have the heart stopping moment when he ignores your recall. I'd stick with it as it will be worth it.