CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: *Jay* on October 13, 2006, 02:58:31 PM
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Okay, for the past 6 months or so, I have been having a few problems with Disney. He has become a complete yob to other dogs outside. He will bark and lunge at them if he is on his lead, and if he is off his lead, then he barks at them whilst chasing them. If I spot the other dog first then I call him to me and get his lead on. He then gets treats and praise for behaving well and not barking. However, this isn't enough for him, even high value treats like liver and chicken, and the majority of the time, he will grab the treat once I have praised him, then sneak in a few barks and lunges. I then decided to try a new tactic and keep him off his lead and distracting him with treats and playing games. This is very hit and miss as to whether this works. His recall is normally fantastic and we are working on reaffirming this in the house and with no distractions and he is brilliant but once he spies another dog, he just goes deaf. I've tried running away in the opposite direction as I am as confident as can be that he won't bite but I can only imagine what other owners must think when my dog launches himself at their dogs and then I just walk off like I haven't got a care in the world :-\ He will come back in his own time so I don't think this technique is the way to go. The final straw was yesterday and he ran from halfway across the park and across a road to get to another dog. I am now so concerned that he is going to end up getting himself killed so I need some techniques for getting him to ignore other dogs. He goes to training and will bark at the dogs there now and again but he does respond to the 'watch me' command when doing weaves between other dogs etc and I've tried training this from scratch outside but it is not that effective. I have just purchased a long line for the meantime but any tips would be greatly appreciated. I have reluctantly booked him in for castration in a couple of weeks in the hope that it will help me with the behavioural modification.
Sorry for the rambling ph34r
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Aw Gill, it sounds like hard work :(
I can highly reccomend the long line - it removes the self-reward from this kind of behaviour, which for Molo, was better than even the tastiest treat I could offer him ;)
It took a long time to be able to rely on his recall in all situations, but we got there in the end ;)
Good luck!
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Do you work with him on his own when you're out, i.e. take him out separately on the odd walk. Sometimes this can help create a better bond with them.
Have you thought of 1-2-1 training as well rather than a group situation
Mine went through a phase of running off shortly after I let them offlead, but in their case it was because Ruby especially had worked out that people put out their binbags just for her and when they've been collected then they leave debris and even if its been cleaned away then there's always a chance they've missed something useful for a thieving scavenging cocker (and if she'd forgotten on the way out she certainly remembered on the way home and the local woods on the park turned into blasted narnia --- she'd go in innocently then minutes later I'd get a phone call streets away saying they'd picked her up when I hadn't even known she'd gone missing). The solution I found was to keep them entertained/focused, i.e. the famous chuckitt or other games cockers love (again mine were not into balls until they discovered this wonderful invention) (I also did this when Wilf hit his teens and kept running away) --- plus I no longer just throw it somewhere she can see it but in rough grassland where she has to use her nose to find it so its become the best game on the planet and very useful. While I know you play games to distract him but here the idea is to get them really hooked
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Gill - I can sympathise I have just started getting this with Fern >:(
Aw Gill, it sounds like hard work :(
I can highly reccomend the long line - it removes the self-reward from this kind of behaviour, which for Molo, was better than even the tastiest treat I could offer him ;)
It took a long time to be able to rely on his recall in all situations, but we got there in the end ;)
Good luck!
I've got a long line but would love some tips on how to use it. Do you constanly hold it or let it run behind them? In the garden I've been letting it run behind her as I know where the dangers are (I.E. the bl@@dy wall when the birds are flying around >:( 50ft of wall is too long to put up trellis etc to heighten it)
The solution I found was to keep them entertained/focused, i.e. the famous chuckitt or other games cockers love (again mine were not into balls until they discovered this wonderful invention) (I also did this when Wilf hit his teens and kept running away)
Chuckitt - is that the tennis ball on the funny stick thing? More info on the trials of Wilf running off would be great too
Sorry if some of these sound stupid questions, I :luv: madam to bits but a working cocker is definately making me work ;) especially as I've never had a pup before, all mine were at least 12 months and partially trained before I had them so all this is new
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He will bark and lunge at them if he is on his lead, and if he is off his lead, then he barks at them whilst chasing them.
Sorry Gill, I am no help at all. But I just wanted to say that that is exactly what my boys are like at the minute. They are very unpredictable as some dogs they meet and play with straight away, and others they bark at and chase. (The other night we met a black lab and a GR and they were fine. Then another black lab appeared and they went ballistic! :o ) There is no logic/pattern as to which dogs they like or don't. (Well there might be to them, but as a mere human I can't see it! :005: )
I was also considering getting them neutered to see if this would help. :-\ But was told and read that if this was fear aggression it could just make things worse. So I've finally managed to find a beaviourist and we are going to see her next week to see if she can help us solve these issues first.
So sorry, I'm no help at all. But it's sometimes nice to know that you are not alone! :D
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Gill - I can sympathise I have just started getting this with Fern >:(
Aw Gill, it sounds like hard work :(
I can highly reccomend the long line - it removes the self-reward from this kind of behaviour, which for Molo, was better than even the tastiest treat I could offer him ;)
It took a long time to be able to rely on his recall in all situations, but we got there in the end ;)
Good luck!
I've got a long line but would love some tips on how to use it. Do you constanly hold it or let it run behind them? In the garden I've been letting it run behind her as I know where the dangers are (I.E. the bl@@dy wall when the birds are flying around >:( 50ft of wall is too long to put up trellis etc to heighten it)
I used the technique described here (http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/ccp51/cc/dog-training/dog-line-training.shtml) - which means to begin with I left the long line in the cupboard until I had taught Molo "wait" and "this way" - frustrating, but well worth it in the long run ;)
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Because I now think there may be an element of fear aggression, I'm not going to go ahead with the neutering......I don't think ::) I just can't decide!!!
I used the long line on his this morning - tried to stand on it 6 times and it slipped from under my foot 5 of those times >:( It obviously isn't as idiot proof as I thought ph34r
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Because I now think there may be an element of fear aggression, I'm not going to go ahead with the neutering......I don't think ::) I just can't decide!!!
We are exactly the same. ::) We have a 'bad' walk and say, "That's it ring the vets." And then we have a 'good' one and say, "Let's wait for a bit."
The behaviourist I am going to see says the fact that they make a lot of noise is good, as the noisier they are the less actual intention there is to do any harm. And if a dog stands up to them, they squeal/yelp and run away. Which is why I think they are quite frightened really. :-\
What does Disney do if the dog he barks at growls back?
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What does Disney do if the dog he barks at growls back?
Practically wets himself :lol: :lol: He will run away squealing and then starts the barking all over again >:D
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I used the long line on his this morning - tried to stand on it 6 times and it slipped from under my foot 5 of those times >:( It obviously isn't as idiot proof as I thought ph34r
You need to tie a knot at the end - also maybe a couple more, evenly spaced down the length of the line.
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I used the long line on his this morning - tried to stand on it 6 times and it slipped from under my foot 5 of those times >:( It obviously isn't as idiot proof as I thought ph34r
You need to tie a knot at the end - also maybe a couple more, evenly spaced down the length of the line.
I did that with Alfie's long line and promptly tripped over it. Very dignified.. not!! ph34r :005:
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I used a long line on Bailey when I first got him , he was a 10 month old rescue dog and I didn't know if he would come back if I let him off lead. I had two loops on quite a long piece of strong twine (had to wear gloves).When I let him go, on not too long a lead I waited until he had found something interesting then used the recall whistle and shouted "this way" giving a sharp tug on the line
I walked the other way shortening the lead as I went so that he had to follow. I kept this up for about a month until he came without the tug on the line until I finally let him free (with my heart in my mouth) and he came back to the whistle.
When I walk him now he stays quite close and watches where I am and he has never "run away" (yet!)
I have not been so lucky with him on the lead though, he pulls like a trojan.He is definately better behaved off the lead
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Remember you must have them on a harness if you are using a long line, so that you don't break their necks.
Ideally you need to find a behaviourist who has confident kind "stooge" dogs - if any of you are near Angela Stockdale, I can highly recommend her, and her dogs - she is an expert in all sorts of canine aggression. Her website is www.dogpartnership.com and she is based in Somerset. For starters, she would probably recommend you walk the dogs separately, rather than as a group, or pair, in case they are reacting to each other.
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Remember you must have them on a harness if you are using a long line, so that you don't break their necks.
I didn't know that :o I'm not doing very well today am I ::)
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Whats your long line like Gill? Don't say like a long line :005: I use a horses lunge reign with Indie ;)
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Well, at least you know now, and not after you've hurt his neck ;) when any of mine are on a long line, I have them on a harness, and I "wear" the line across me - and I wear gloves. So my body takes the strain if they do pull .... rather than breaking another finger like I did last year.... ::)
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I've just went and got the packaging to make sure it didn't say anything about wearing a harness, and me being the plonker I am, have bought a house line ph34r I wondered why it was shorter than all the long lines I have seen :embarassed:
I give up >:(
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PMSL :D ok so go to a horsey shop, and buy a lunge line - or even Pets at home do a long line nowadays, made by Company of Animals ... anyway a house line always comes in handy ;) :lol:
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Aw Gill - stick with it :(
I got a long "climbing rope" line from Training Lines, and another flat nylon long line from a local independent pet store (Cheryl is borrowing this one atm ;)) - but I agree with Penel, a harness is a must ;)
Ouch Penel - I know from experience how painful a broken finger can be ph34r
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Remember you must have them on a harness if you are using a long line, so that you don't break their necks.
I didn't know that :o I'm not doing very well today am I ::)
I didn't know that either :huh: Ok what sort of harness do I go for? I have a stop - pull one here but I HATE IT and only put it on her once since then it's stayed in it's box sat by the computer ;)
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Wow! I don't want to jump on the bandwagon, but we are slowly (and rather dimly) realising that this is an increasing problem with Buddy. He is also becoming more wary of strangers and a bit hand shy.
I have a home made long line (made in an emergency when we had Salty with us in February) but it's not as good as a proper one. And I didn't know about the harness either.
To be honest when off lead Buddy rarely goes up to the dogs he's scared of so it's not really going to make much difference there. He tends to hide behind me. but when they have passed by he might be a bit bolder towards their back end! :005:
When on lead though he's a nightmare; barking and lunging. So much so that I try to avoid meeting other dogs in the street. Especially when I'm on the school run because the barking scares the kids as we walk past, even though it's not aimed at them.
I have been thinking about some 1-1, but have been trying a bit of distraction on my own with a little success (which might be down to my technique).
I will be watching this thread with interest.
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Right, I have just been down to P@H and got a 10m line - that was the longest they had but its got to do a better job than the 1.25m house line I was using yesterday :embarassed: I'll dig out a harness and we will try again this afternoon ::)
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gill,the only advice i can give you is .....send top barks a pm.he always has a sensible working solution.i'm sure he wouldn't mind ;)
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When on lead though he's a nightmare; barking and lunging. So much so that I try to avoid meeting other dogs in the street. Especially when I'm on the school run because the barking scares the kids as we walk past, even though it's not aimed at them.
I have been thinking about some 1-1, but have been trying a bit of distraction on my own with a little success (which might be down to my technique).
I will be watching this thread with interest.
I'd go for 1-2-1s as they're a great way to help you and Buddy.
I also once saw someone use TTouch to help as well and I think there are a handful of good TTouchers near you
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Just a normal static harness, nothing that tightens when they pull. It's purely to spread the load if they do get to the end of it at speed. Remember to reward any good behaviour - and walk away from bad behaviour. If they even look towards you instead of barking / lunging, you can reward - either vocally, or if you use a clicker that is the time to click ( and treat when they get back to you.)
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Remember you must have them on a harness if you are using a long line, so that you don't break their necks.
Ideally you need to find a behaviourist who has confident kind "stooge" dogs - if any of you are near Angela Stockdale, I can highly recommend her, and her dogs - she is an expert in all sorts of canine aggression. Her website is www.dogpartnership.com and she is based in Somerset. For starters, she would probably recommend you walk the dogs separately, rather than as a group, or pair, in case they are reacting to each other.
I have just got back from a weekend workshop with her and I found her very interesting.
I'm now quiting this list to join Malumutes on line as I have fallen head over heels with her Boy Norse
What a stunna!
Only kidding but her teaching dogs are quite something.
I would kill for a dog like that.
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Anybody know if there is a scottish version of angela stockdale then?? She sounds like just what I need
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I think she is unique Gill, I am afraid ladies of her calibre and insight into aggression are few and far between.
I have just read your origional post Gill and to assess your doggie someone would have first to see it but if the dog is fearful I think Angela would reccomend not castrating.
She may reccomend a body harness and perhaps some Ttouch and she would try and break the dogs habit of reacting like this by only walking with proven stooge dogs for some time.
i also saw her work with a young Gsd who was reactive to men and had a bite in him for sure.
the dog came forward with all teeth showing and she came forward to meet him. She took all the dogs posturing and only when the dog backed away diid she turn and walk away.
For a positive trainer trying to build confidence in dogs this technique was alien to me, but she was trying to show the dog that his reaction did not work and it was only him backing down that made the scary person go away.
She said she would not try this if the dog had been older and reccomended that no one else try it, but the mechanics of what she did to make the dog understand that all this lunging actually brought it's worst nightmare even closer made perfect sense to me.
Once she had the dog backing off she then began to build the dogs confidence in people using more reward based methods.
Fascinating to watch and hard to describe on here.
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Anybody know if there is a scottish version of angela stockdale then?? She sounds like just what I need
If you find one gill let me know ;) I was over in your part of the woods yesterday, took Fern to Tentsmuir, funnily enough she didn't like the taste of salt water :005:
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Hey Mark - I'm so pleased you went to meet Ange - she's one in a million isn't she ;) :D - and yes her dogs are amazing...
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i just wish i lived closer to her Penel >:(
i think to attend her groups would be fascinating.
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I've posted in the 'other breed section' about my neighbours Boxer before. She's not at all aggressive but runs off after every dog in the park for a play. No amount of calling will get her back, total tunnel vision. My neighbour has tried everything from 1 to 1 training, long line, you name it she's tried it but NOTHING works ::) She was spayed 6 months ago in a hope that would help but there has been no change.
I know Disney is going after dogs for a different reason so you may be luckier in finding an answer to the problem Gill. Good Luck ;)
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Just seen this Gill..........not been on for weeks.......too much studying to do >:(
Hope you manage to Disney out. Remember Brogan is around and up for a walk anytime you need a stooge dog ;) Have lost count now of how many dogs he has managed to calm down that started out with a fear. And if all else fails - you could try flooding therapy with Bailey :005:
Good Luck!!
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Hope you manage to Disney out. Remember Brogan is around and up for a walk anytime you need a stooge dog ;) Have lost count now of how many dogs he has managed to calm down that started out with a fear. And if all else fails - you could try flooding therapy with Bailey :005:
Good Luck!!
Might end up taking you up on that offer Laura ;) Brogan is just the steady kind of dog we need I think. Will send you a pm later to catch up ;)
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i just wish i lived closer to her Penel >:(
i think to attend her groups would be fascinating.
tis very very interesting yes :D
my neighbours Boxer before. She's not at all aggressive but runs off after every dog in the park for a play. No amount of calling will get her back, total tunnel vision. My neighbour has tried everything from 1 to 1 training, long line, you name it she's tried it but NOTHING works
in that case I would say that they have let her off the long line before she has a reliable recall. I do not believe that nothing works I'm afraid - to me, that means, they haven't tried hard enough to train her properly, and consistently.
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my neighbours Boxer before. She's not at all aggressive but runs off after every dog in the park for a play. No amount of calling will get her back, total tunnel vision. My neighbour has tried everything from 1 to 1 training, long line, you name it she's tried it but NOTHING works
in that case I would say that they have let her off the long line before she has a reliable recall. I do not believe that nothing works I'm afraid - to me, that means, they haven't tried hard enough to train her properly, and consistently.
I'm afraid I agree with Penel - if a long line is used to "train" the dog, then it's not a case of it working or not - the dog is not allowed of the line lead until the recall is reliable at each level of distraction ;) It took nearly 12 months to train Molo to recall in high distraction situations ::)
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my neighbours Boxer before. She's not at all aggressive but runs off after every dog in the park for a play. No amount of calling will get her back, total tunnel vision. My neighbour has tried everything from 1 to 1 training, long line, you name it she's tried it but NOTHING works
in that case I would say that they have let her off the long line before she has a reliable recall. I do not believe that nothing works I'm afraid - to me, that means, they haven't tried hard enough to train her properly, and consistently.
I'm afraid I agree with Penel - if a long line is used to "train" the dog, then it's not a case of it working or not - the dog is not allowed of the line lead until the recall is reliable at each level of distraction ;) It took nearly 12 months to train Molo to recall in high distraction situations ::)
I agree as well, It took me 5 months to get Bayley off a long line and I partly do it for a living.
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I still haven't managed to find a behaviourist - the only one who was recommended to me has apparently used an electric shock collar on an aggressive dog so I don't really feel comfortable getting in touch with her. Oh yes, and Barkbusters were another one - I think not!!! I took him to the vets for a check up just to make sure there was nothing physical and he appears fine. He has been put on a course of Ovarid to help him while we are trying to modify the behaviour which I'm not too sure about to be honest. Too early to say whether he is getting better but we are working hard ;)
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Gill I've PM'd you ;)
Don't know if the info I passed on was any good to you, but thought you could have a look and make your own mind up
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I still haven't managed to find a behaviourist - the only one who was recommended to me has apparently used an electric shock collar on an aggressive dog so I don't really feel comfortable getting in touch with her. Oh yes, and Barkbusters were another one - I think not!!! I took him to the vets for a check up just to make sure there was nothing physical and he appears fine. He has been put on a course of Ovarid to help him while we are trying to modify the behaviour which I'm not too sure about to be honest. Too early to say whether he is getting better but we are working hard ;)
Gill,
where abouts in bonnie Scotland are you? there is a fellow course member of mine Tracy Mclennan who is also a ttouch practitioner who lives in Denny I think it is.
Sorry my geography of Scotland is so poor.
She is a friend of freya's (Crazy Spaniels) and if she is anywhere near you would be someone who would be good for you to meet.
you are right to stay away from anyone using an e collar to sort this type of issue as it in my oppinion is not anything to consider for a nervous reactive dog.
I am working with lots of dogs with these sorts of issues at the moment and I am using management techniques, confidence building, classical conditioning ,Ttouch and ttouch groundwork to work with these dogs.
Their is no quick fix for a reactive dog as i know as Douglas who has been with me for two years is still not 100 % around some dogs and I have been working with him since I got him.
I think his issues lie deeper than learned behaviour which has made his rehab difficult, wheras Bayley has responded a lot quicker as i believe his was a learned fear response but even so it has taken since february to trust him completly.
If you ever want to talk through anything please PM me and I would gladly give you my phone number if it would help.
mark
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Just to add to what Mark has said, Tracey is a friend of mine too - she is fab with reactive dogs.
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my neighbours Boxer before. She's not at all aggressive but runs off after every dog in the park for a play. No amount of calling will get her back, total tunnel vision. My neighbour has tried everything from 1 to 1 training, long line, you name it she's tried it but NOTHING works
in that case I would say that they have let her off the long line before she has a reliable recall. I do not believe that nothing works I'm afraid - to me, that means, they haven't tried hard enough to train her properly, and consistently.
I'm afraid I agree with Penel - if a long line is used to "train" the dog, then it's not a case of it working or not - the dog is not allowed of the line lead until the recall is reliable at each level of distraction ;) It took nearly 12 months to train Molo to recall in high distraction situations ::)
I agree as well, It took me 5 months to get Bayley off a long line and I partly do it for a living.
Her recall on a long lead was 100% reliable. She wouldn't even attempt to run after other dogs whilst on a long lead at all when she began to know she wouldn't get anywhere so never bothered at all, she would glance and that was it. I don't disagree that she can be trained and that something hasn't gone right in their training. If she was 100% reliable on long lead how do you know it's the right time to let them have their freedom :huh:
Sorry Gill, I don't want to hijack this thread.
Edited to add that I have just done a search on recall and spotted Marks thread about succeeding with Bayleys recall. Very impressive :shades: I'll pass on any further advice I find ;) Back to Gill's thread now ;)
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Just to add to what Mark has said, Tracey is a friend of mine too - she is fab with reactive dogs.
Small world eh penel, have you met the famous Cal and katie then?
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Just to add to what Mark has said, Tracey is a friend of mine too - she is fab with reactive dogs.
Small world eh penel, have you met the famous Cal and katie then?
yup I've known Tracey for about 6 years I think, basically since Cal was a pup :D
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I learned to use a long line at a proper training club , training was out side with other dogs with the same problem, timeing is essential. Nothink is as good as a line made for the job,we didn`t hold the line just watched the dogs when they went put our foot on it, but the line was used every time the dog run free.
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Gill I've PM'd you ;)
Don't know if the info I passed on was any good to you, but thought you could have a look and make your own mind up
Gill,
I went to see Anna on Tues night we started with me showing how I was dealing with Fern recall etc and on lead, she then showed me my mistakes and also used the clicker. She also put a halti training harness on her.
No electric collars and she does not like choke or half choke collars etc. that includes slip leads too ;)
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Gill I've PM'd you ;)
Don't know if the info I passed on was any good to you, but thought you could have a look and make your own mind up
Gill,
I went to see Anna on Tues night we started with me showing how I was dealing with Fern recall etc and on lead, she then showed me my mistakes and also used the clicker. She also put a halti training harness on her.
No electric collars and she does not like choke or half choke collars etc. that includes slip leads too ;)
Well that sounds promising. Will definitely look into that further.