CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: *Adele* on November 27, 2008, 04:20:31 PM
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OK I'm totally beside myself at the moment as I've just had to give my daughter medicine and comfort her after the dog bit her! She hasn't punctured the skin but not far off at all! You can see bite marks and there's clearly going to be a huge bruise! This is the 3rd time this week that she has gone for the kids but the first time proper contact has been made, previous times there's just been a scratch. The 1st time the kids were playing with her and I was sat right next to them when it happened, there was no apparent reason for her to do it, no warning at all! The 2nd time my daughter just walked past Chloe in the hallway, now it was dark and Chloe may have been asleep but that could be the only reason for her doing it, she leaped at my daughter! This time Leigh was just walking past Chloe again in the hallway and I didn't even hear a noise out of Chloe unlike the 1st two times!
She's due to go to the vets on Tuesday for her jabs so I can ask them to look her over but at this moment in time I don't even want her in the house near the kids! Whether it's her eyesight I don't know, she's not shown any sign of pain or discomfort or anything, in fact she seems to have so much more energy and life about her since she was spayed on the 5th November she's surprised me totally!
I've put her in her cage whilst I try to think what to do, I'm speechless! :'(
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Sorry you are going through this. Your vet is probable the best person to talk to. Did she do it before she was spayed. She may not be feeling too good. If its out of character there is usually a reason. You said about her sight. Does she have problems with her vision, if so she may be suprised when someone goes past. Hope you get it sorted.
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Hi, I am so sorry you are going through this with Chloe. It could well be her hormone levels changing if she was only spayed on the 5th of this month, she could also still be in a little discomfort, I know Jade was fine most of the time but even up to 6 weeks later, she would occasionally yelp out when jumping onto the sofa or doing the wall of death around the lounge. ::) Have a word with your vet about it, but I am sure Chloe still loves the kids, it certainly is worrying though and I know I would be devastated if any of mine ever even growled at the kids. (I am a childminder, they can growl all they like at mine he is 19!! ph34r) I really hope you get it sorted out with her and peace resumes soon. :-* :-*
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Hi guys and thanks for the replies. I've spoken to the vets receptionist who was very helpful, not! She said that I obvioulsy needed to train her! >:D Needless to say that didn't impress me one single bit! She did give me the number of a behaviourist whom I've just spoken to quite in depth, they have offered to come around but all they're going to see is a very well behaved dog! So there's little point in them doing that. She did say that it could be her hormones and all I can really do is keep them all seperate unless I'm supervising until things sort themselves out! Great idea but the 1st time it happened I was present, the other 2 times my daughter was just walking past her in the hallway!
I'm still in shock I think and not sure what to do for the best, this just brings flash backs to when I was a teen when our 4 year old border collie bit someone and he was put down straight away without question as my sister was only 5 and often had friends around, my parents wouldn't risk having a dog who could snap like that. :-\
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Has Chloe got eyesight problems?
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Did chloe jump up at the kids before she was spayed? Not even to bite, but to jump up and play???
The reason i'm asking is that this could be the progression of that...just like any puppy does with their litter mates they jump about and nip...and I wonder if she sees the kids as just her playmates??? It doesn't seem like it's aggression from what you've said so it maybe play gone too far???
I would think about what the kids 'do' for her...as in do they help feed her etc...wipe her paws when she comes in, groom her etc...just so it is not always 'play' time.
I'm only guessing, and it's hard to guess when you don't see it in action...but just a thought...
I hope you get it sorted soon,
:luv:
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Chloe has cataracts in both eyes but still has enough sight not to walk into things inside or outside of the house.
She's never had a nasty bone in her body and very rarely jumps up at the kids, if she does it's because my daughter encourages her to do so so they can dance together! The kids don't often play with her to be honest, that's my job if anything! The kids know only to play with her when I'm around and then I don't let them get too excited by it all.
Thanks for all replies again!
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When were the cataracts last checked?
Can you get her into the vets before tuesday and get the vet to give her a check up and perhaps do her jabs then too?
What time of day were these incidents? Sorry just trying to see if there is a pattern for you to speak to the vet about
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Sorry to hear about this Adele & i hope your daughter is OK
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The thing I'm describing is not a nasty thing...just a way that dogs do play...please don't take from what I was saying as chloe is nasty - I really don't think she sounds like that at all.
Might it be her trying to instigate the 'dancing' - as a play thing???
I'd be surprised if it were her eyes as dogs use far more senses than just their eyes...and use these to work out who it is...such as smell etc...
:luv:
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Sorry Ori, I didn't take you as meaning she was nasty at all, the last 2 times she was just laid in the hallway when my daughter walked past, not in a playful mood whatsoever.
She saw the eye specialist during the summer Cazza, I'll try and ring the vets again tomorrow, still shocked by the receptionists attitude! >:D Each time the incidents happen it's around tea time, I don't think it's a hunger thing but will mention the time of day to the vets. To be honest the kids are only around downstairs at this time so it may just be coincidence, dunno.
Thanks again.
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You need to get her checked thouroughly at the vets and if I explained to my vet that my dog had these issues and they knew the medical history such as it is and they said I should train her I would be looking for a different vet.
Cateracts can be a reason for a dog to bite or show aggression Bayley has them and was due to be PTS.
He sometimes just doesn't see your hand coming towards him sometimes and reacts in the only way he can and that is defensively.
As I have said lots on here you cannot accurately diagnose aggression issues on the internet so until you get this checked out I would not have the children playing with her but if you think it is safe then maybe have them hand feed her.
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i would get the vet to have alook at her spay she could still be in some pain, i know years ago when kizzy was spayed i felt it wasnt 100 % even months after she would groan if i picked her up, with her only being spayed a short while ago she could be still sore,
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I really think her eyes are getting worse Adele, and she's reacting from being startled. It doesn't matter if her other senses are working fine, if something she can't quite focus on suddenly looms in front of her it's bound to make her react ;) It may be that you both have to use voice a lot more with her so she know's your close and doesn't act out of fright.
And I won't comment on your vet's receptionists attitude.... >:D
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I agree the spay could also be a factor but that is the problem with the internet we are all clutching at straws and drawing conclusions without seeing the dog or knowing the full facts.
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She saw the eye specialist during the summer Cazza, I'll try and ring the vets again tomorrow, still shocked by the receptionists attitude! >:D Each time the incidents happen it's around tea time, I don't think it's a hunger thing but will mention the time of day to the vets. To be honest the kids are only around downstairs at this time so it may just be coincidence, dunno.
Thanks again.
Has this not been checked since the summer then?
This is the first thing I would get checked out
if I explained to my vet that my dog had these issues and they knew the medical history such as it is and they said I should train her I would be looking for a different vet.
Me too - although it was the receptionist, but they should still know better >:D
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She saw the eye specialist during the summer Cazza, I'll try and ring the vets again tomorrow, still shocked by the receptionists attitude! >:D Each time the incidents happen it's around tea time, I don't think it's a hunger thing but will mention the time of day to the vets. To be honest the kids are only around downstairs at this time so it may just be coincidence, dunno.
Thanks again.
Has this not been checked since the summer then?
This is the first thing I would get checked out
if I explained to my vet that my dog had these issues and they knew the medical history such as it is and they said I should train her I would be looking for a different vet.
Me too - although it was the receptionist, but they should still know better >:D
As I suspected! A lot of receptionist's do not know their Arse from their elbow, let alone give behavioural advice. >:D
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Out of interest was the hallway unlit, may have made it even harder for her 'see' who or what it was.
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Vets to check it all out, then strict training involving the children and strutured classes sounds like the best option. It may not be what you want to hear but it sounds like she has developed into a bossyboots around them, especially as she hasn't bitten you or any others - might this be a pack thing, bought on by hormone change, related to the spey? Always difficultto offer advice over the internet but unfortunately, I speak from my own experience
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Agree with most of what has been said on this thread.....
It must be awful to be going through and you need to see the vet asap to see if it is eyesight/spay or any other health reason related. If they don't come up with anything get a behaviourist in - even if they don't see the behaviour they may pick up other signs. In the meantime keep your children safe - follow Top Bark's advice about play/feeding etc... hope you find out what is going on and get some solutions!
:-*
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Hugs Adele, hope you can get Chloe to the vets to check the cataracts aren't worse, might suggest a health and temper test for the receptionist whilst your there...
Hope the kids are OK, don't forget Chloe is going to sense your stress with her which isn't going to help, relax and make sure the kids give her some distance if possible. Can she move to an area which is not a thorough fare to avoid them having to disturb her too - if her hormones are all over the place perhaps she need s some R&R just like us :-*
Good luck hun
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Vets to check it all out, then strict training involving the children and strutured classes sounds like the best option. It may not be what you want to hear but it sounds like she has developed into a bossyboots around them, especially as she hasn't bitten you or any others - might this be a pack thing, bought on by hormone change, related to the spey? Always difficultto offer advice over the internet but unfortunately, I speak from my own experience
How do you know this has anything to do with status?
Have you had a dog with cateracts? You always seem to jump on the dominance band waggon, you really need to be careful when giving behavioural advice as some owners who know no better may take you up on trying to reduce the dogs "rank" and that could make matters even worse.
Rank reduction programmes are fraught with danger and very outdated.
Hormone imbalances and behavioural changes due to health I can buy, but I'm sorry this dog is not trying to make a bid for world domination.
confident dogs do not often show aggression, they don't need to because they are sure of their status, insecure dogs or dogs in pain however do. :D
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Hugs Adele, hope you can get Chloe to the vets to check the cataracts aren't worse, might suggest a health and temper test for the receptionist whilst your there...
Hope the kids are OK, don't forget Chloe is going to sense your stress with her which isn't going to help, relax and make sure the kids give her some distance if possible. Can she move to an area which is not a thorough fare to avoid them having to disturb her too - if her hormones are all over the place perhaps she need s some R&R just like us :-*
Good luck hun
Wot she said! Thinking of you Adele and Chloe x
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Vets to check it all out, then strict training involving the children and strutured classes sounds like the best option. It may not be what you want to hear but it sounds like she has developed into a bossyboots around them, especially as she hasn't bitten you or any others - might this be a pack thing, bought on by hormone change, related to the spey? Always difficultto offer advice over the internet but unfortunately, I speak from my own experience
How do you know this has anything to do with status?
Have you had a dog with cateracts? You always seem to jump on the dominance band waggon, you really need to be careful when giving behavioural advice as some owners who know no better may take you up on trying to reduce the dogs "rank" and that could make matters even worse.
Rank reduction programmes are fraught with danger and very outdated.
Hormone imbalances and behavioural changes due to health I can buy, but I'm sorry this dog is not trying to make a bid for world domination.
confident dogs do not often show aggression, they don't need to because they are sure of their status, insecure dogs or dogs in pain however do. :D
Crikey Mark, don't turn this into a personal attack on me As I said, it is always difficult to offer advice over the internet - and as you yourself have said, we are all trying to help and are clutching at straws.
To reiterate,
I don't know it has anything to do with status. I just said "best option might be....."
Yes, I have had a number of dogs with cataracts.
I'm sorry that your perception is that I "always jump on the dominance bandwagon" - I said it could be hormone related, after all and suggested the vets first. Neither did I say the dog is making a bid for world domination or that there should be a rank reduction programme- where did you get that from?
Everything we all say is humble opinion not fact
Have you had a bad day or something?
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She did give me the number of a behaviourist whom I've just spoken to quite in depth, they have offered to come around but all they're going to see is a very well behaved dog! So there's little point in them doing that.
A behaviourist would be able to see things in Chloe's behaviour, that we wouldn't even notice, so I would definitely advise getting the behaviourist around to assess Chloe in her home enviroment. They would be much better qualified than a vet, vet's receptionist and forum members that haven't witnessed any of this behaviour (no offence meant to any FMs, but none of us were there, and we can only speculate as to what caused Chloe to behave this way).
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It is nothing personal against you, it's just that humble oppinion can get people in to trouble where dog aggression is concerned.
I'm sorry but there was another topic the other day where you sugested a dominance issue and I kept quiet, but thought i had to voice my oppinion this time.
Rank reduction programmes were used to reduce so called dominance and caused all sorts of problems and escalation in aggressive behaviour which is why I mentioned them.
I'm not getting into this whole pack thing again as i have done it to death with others on here, but just be careful using pack structure to explain problems, because there are more probable causes at the bottom of this.
If you haven't already, I suggest you read the Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, Dominance fact or fiction, by Barry Eaton, Dominance Theory and Dogs by james O'Heare and John Fisher's Diary of a Dotty dog Doctor.
Some real good info about the dominance panacea.
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Just a thought - could she have had pain from her operation when playing and then associated it with the kids?
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wow, good point!
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Just a thought - could she have had pain from her operation when playing and then associated it with the kids?
Now that is a possibility. :D which is why I suggested the kids hand feed her. ;)
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Cateracts are funny things. I would still say get this checked. When you have them your vision can vary in different light. Our Daisy had them and I couldn't get OH to realise sometimes she could see and sometimes she couldn't. If it is too bright or the sun is in their eyes it is like looking through shattered glass. If it is too dull they can't see either but if the light is just right they can see better. If the hallway was dull she may find it difficult to see. If it is around tea time it would then be artificial light where she may be better in good day light.
I'm speaking from our experiences with Daisy and used to question the opticians where I work.
Hope things are sorted soon.
Would also mention that when willow was spayed she was allergic to the internal stitches but you would have noticed swelling by now if it was that. That made her feel poorly
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Sorry Ori, I didn't take you as meaning she was nasty at all, the last 2 times she was just laid in the hallway when my daughter walked past, not in a playful mood whatsoever.
That's absolutely fine - just didn't want you getting the wrong impression of what I'd said - lol!!!! :luv:
I really hope your little chloe gets sorted!!!! :luv:
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How do you know this has anything to do with status?
Have you had a dog with cateracts? You always seem to jump on the dominance band waggon, you really need to be careful when giving behavioural advice as some owners who know no better may take you up on trying to reduce the dogs "rank" and that could make matters even worse.
Rank reduction programmes are fraught with danger and very outdated.
Hormone imbalances and behavioural changes due to health I can buy, but I'm sorry this dog is not trying to make a bid for world domination.
confident dogs do not often show aggression, they don't need to because they are sure of their status, insecure dogs or dogs in pain however do.
Mark, the whole point of a 'forum' is to talk about ideas - and NOT bid for world domination ourselves...think you are being a bit harsh.
You paint the picture of 'dominance' theory as such as bad thing - however when reading any of the early fisher or burch and bailey stuff (yes referring to your other article too)there is never any hint of 'making' the dog suffer in the harsh way that you describe - much of the advice boils down to rewarding wanted behaviour and ignoring unwanted - which is the basis of ANY training be it dog, human or whatever!!!!!
I agree other factors maybe featuring here, but to act so vehemently towards someone I think goes against a whole forum attitude...and certainly doesn't lead to us all having an open debate...You often use 'in my humble opinion' - think you taught me it - but does your posts imply that yours is less humble than the rest of ours????
It certainly leaves me feeling it's pointless having a behaviour section on here (unless questions are only answered by qualified behaviourists) if we can't all share ideas/experience etc...what IS the point????????
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Really think that it's not Mark thats out of line her Ori1 but you... - IF the advice given is potentially damaging (which in some cases this dominance rubbish is) then a qualified behaviourist has every right to comment. I think the proof comes when all these 'theories' have been tried on dogs and people like Mark have to pick up the pieces and try to put the dog back together :-\
It is really dangerous for us to comment on behavioural issues on a forum - we can only give advice but if the advice is clearly flawed then I for one am grateful for the intervention of someone qualified.
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It is really dangerous for us to comment on behavioural issues on a forum - we can only give advice but if the advice is clearly flawed then I for one am grateful for the intervention of someone qualified.
I totally agree with you - hence my point about not having this section that we all write on - it's absolutely pointless!
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There are lots of behavioural issues where people can share experiences and give advice - but where aggressive behaviour is the issue the best advice that can be given is to seek a professional. If the professionals who are members here can give some tips about managing the situation in the meantime, that is great, but any steps to rectify the situation need to be taken under the advice of someone who has seen the situation! ;)
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I never mentioned the word "dominance", just referred to some structured training in a class, so the children know how to behave around the dog - and suggested a VET FIRST!!
What is this word "dominance "that gets people so wound up, ready to assume that it is the only train of thought one inflexibley embraces? Or is it the aversive methods of intervention some think fit a dominance description? It's certainly not in my vocab.
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Anyway Adele - I'm no expert and so won't be offering advise - but understand how upsetting it is for you and the kids.
But I would recommend you suggest the receptionist sees a behaviourist and perhaps gets some firm training herself.
Sounds like a case of a receptionist who feels she ought to be a vet!
Hope all goes well. I'm sure there's a very easy to solve solution and the children will dancing with Chloe again very soon x
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I never mentioned the word "dominance", just referred to some structured training in a class, so the children know how to behave around the dog - and suggested a VET FIRST!!
Lisa, you did say "It may not be what you want to hear but it sounds like she has developed into a bossyboots around them" but you can't possibly know this - Chloe could be biting out of fear/association with past pain/confusion due to sight problems/hormone imbalance, etc etc. The list is endless ..... The fact is none of us can say why Chloe is behaving like she is because we weren't there at the time and we don't know her or her family. If you'd just stuck to the sensible suggestion about a vet consultation & possibly structured training to follow, nobody would have said anything but it's the "sounds like bossy behaviour to me" comment which was rightly challenged (rightly because nobody on this forum is in a position to make this kind of diagnosis)
I totally agree with you - hence my point about not having this section that we all write on - it's absolutely pointless!
If you meant this, you surely wouldn't spend so much of your time reading and posting on this board (you've posted far more on this board than on any other). It's also quite noticeable that whenever there is a difference of opinion on any behaviour thread, you're there posting comments like the above which aren't constructive and which seemed designed to provoke. If you don't like this board, then don't read or post in it - it's quite simple really. If you do want to continue coming here, then less of the above type of comment please (this is your final warning)
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Jane, just a "sounds like TO ME" is not fact. It's opinion only. I welcome challenge, but in a respectful way, surely. It was picked up that the tone of the response to me was not respectfully put. Sorry if any offence was caused on my part, but the use of the word bossyboots was meant with a wry smile, rather than a declaration of dominance requiring interventions in relation to those type which cause offense to behaviourists. I was misunderstood.
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It is really dangerous for us to comment on behavioural issues on a forum - we can only give advice but if the advice is clearly flawed then I for one am grateful for the intervention of someone qualified.
I totally agree with you - hence my point about not having this section that we all write on - it's absolutely pointless!
See I thought this board was for people top post questions on yes, and get support from people yes, but another use for it and the one I use it for....and this may be selfish but it's what I do...is just to read it and to take all the information on board so you can learn more and then if you have a potential problem with your dog you can search through the threads already on here and see what is said to get it sorted quicker.
I am not sure I have ever posted on this board...I may have done but I guess mine would be the useless 'I hope you get this sorted quickly' type of answer rather than advice....sometimes I think if someone is going through the mill it is helpful to know that people are thinking of them and supporting them but I do not offer advice as I don't know enough to be able to do so.
It is up to Adele now who's advice she is to take but I know from what I have seen posted be it in videos of his dogs in action and other advice given I would hold Marks in the highest regard and pay his the most attention....why would you not take the most qualified advice given ???
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I'm sorry if some of my comments come across as disrespectful but I get fed up with picking up the pieces when people are given bad advice on forum's or in the pub, or from the vet.
If people don't like my oppinions then fine, not really bothered to be honest, all I can do is comment as I see fit.
I do wear my heart on my sleeve sometimes which can be weakness but it is done with the best of intention at all times.
I nearly stopped posting on here a while back due to the attitude of some but thought better of it and I'll continue to put my two penneth in in the future.
My best advice to any one is that if you want to post on aggression which can be a serious issue then please be sure of the facts or what you are saying before you give advice.
This is not the dog peeing on the carpet here, there is the potential for injury or even death to the dog and owner.
In light of this please excuse my ranting at what I consider bad advice given.
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Glad you haven't been put off posting, Mark, I personally think your advice is invaluable. :D I don't often post on the behaviour board as I'm no expert, but I know what methods of training I use and those I think are bunkum!
Adele, I really hope you get to the bottom of Chloe's behaviour and you can get back to have a peaceful hooman/dog household again soon. :-*
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Goodness me guys, reign it in a bit ;) Adele was asking for advice as shes clearly upset and confused about Chloes behaviour. Would be an awful shame for Adele and others in similar situations if this thread ended up getting locked!
Adele, as a mum and dog owner I can understand how awful you must be feeling right now and I just wanted to say that I was thinking of you :luv: I can't offer any advice but really hope you can get to the bottom of Chloes outburst and that its something that can be worked on, keep us informed how she gets on won't you, take care :-*
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Jane, just a "sounds like TO ME" is not fact. It's opinion only. ...... I was misunderstood.
I was misunderstood.
Yes perhaps you were misunderstood but I can clearly see why your "bossyboots" comment and reference to the "pack" were taken the way they were. You say you were only giving an opinion but I personally don't see how anyone could give this kind of opinion without personal knowledge and observation of the dog concerned. With potentially serious problems like this, we all need to be careful what we say & remember that behavioural problems involving aggression cannot be solved via the internet as it is too easy to make assumptions that are completely wrong with potentially disastrous results.
Right, let's get this thread back on track now & please let's address any further comments to Adele's situation rather than arguing amongst ourselves. Any further disruptive posts which are clearly not designed to help (not aimed at you Lisa) will be removed.
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Thank you so much everyone for your replies and assistance, sorry I've dug up a few, erm... quarrels for want of a better term.
Well we're off to the vets at 12.30 to seek medical advice, I'm still very much in shock and keep going over everything that's happened, everyone's thoughts and advice and I'm not any clearer I don't think. One thing that keeps coming up in my mind though is that I really don't trust Chloe now, I know we can never trust dogs 100% of the time, I'm not that naive. All three incidents were slightly different and the only running theme is it's been around the same time each day and it's been the kids not me.
It's really difficult for me to try and explain a few things I guess which leave me even more confused. Chloe and the kids rarely have that much to do with each other, the kids' just aren't that interested to be honest! She's my dog and I'm around her, other than overnight when she's in her crate asleep, almost 24/7 so thought I was pretty clued up on her and her behaviour. I don't believe it's a food thing, she wasn't hungry at any of the times anything happened, she was nowhere near her food, her bed, her toys, balls, treats anything.
My daughter told me this morning that before Chloe went for her last night she looked up at Leigh for a moment so clearly saw her and then went for her, so to me that's not Chloe being startled, she looked up and saw my daughter then took action.
Her eyesight - again, I'm pretty sure that if her eyesight had altered in a substantial way to warrant a change in behaviour I would have noticed, I could be wrong and I'll clearly speak to the vet about it.
Behaviour - what can I say? I'm no expert but I know my dog better than anybody else and this is so much out of character for her it really did shock me and I'm pretty unshockable in all aspects of life!
Hormones - this is the only real thing that I can see being the problem and I will clearly be asking the vet for medical advice, the behaviourist last night said that it could be months before her hormones settle but she's not a vet so I won't rely on that until it's been backed up.
I appreciate your advice on training with the kids Mark but I really don't think this would alter the situation, she's not going for the kids due to play or food, other than the first time it happened nobody was doing anything untoward whatsoever.
We've had our usual walk this morning and I've just been going over and over in my head everything, I will wait to see what the vet says but at this moment in time I just don't want Chloe around to be completely honest, my kids mean the world to me and this incident has really shook me up.
I will let you all know how we get on and thank you once again for all the posts on the thread and the pm's which I am on my way over to now to reply to.
Thank you!
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Good luck at the vets Adelle; I really hope you get to the bottom of this situation. I've followed the thread with much interest, but refrained from getting involved as I didn't have any advice to offer, but I felt I just wanted to get in now and wish you all the very best. I can only imagine what a worry it must be for you. Do let us know how you get on.
Sue
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Just a thought - could she have had pain from her operation when playing and then associated it with the kids?
Now that is a possibility. :D which is why I suggested the kids hand feed her. ;)
Only just read this thread, I'm sorry Chloe isn't feeling her usual self. But this is the first thing I thought of too.
Especially if she's been dancing with your daughter since the op?
Morgan has bad eyesight when you're close up to him, but his reaction is to whine and move backwards if you're too close too quick (plus he always thinks you're going to feed him, piglet and he wants to see what you're giving him ;)).
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Just a thought - could she have had pain from her operation when playing and then associated it with the kids?
Now that is a possibility. :D which is why I suggested the kids hand feed her. ;)
Only just read this thread, I'm sorry Chloe isn't feeling her usual self. But this is the first thing I thought of too.
Especially if she's been dancing with your daughter since the op?
Morgan has bad eyesight when you're close up to him, but his reaction is to whine and move backwards if you're too close too quick (plus he always thinks you're going to feed him, piglet and he wants to see what you're giving him ;)).
She has danced with my daughter since the op, this kind of play happens between them once a month maybe tops! It's not a common occurrence and one I ask my daughter not to do as I've been trying to stop her jumping up when she's excited. This week is the first time since the op that I've allowed the kids to play with her at all. She's not a playful dog although has become more interested in playing with other dogs and playing with balls since her op strangely enough! But not with the kids.
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I'm sorry if some of my comments come across as disrespectful but I get fed up with picking up the pieces when people are given bad advice on forum's or in the pub, or from the vet.
If people don't like my oppinions then fine, not really bothered to be honest, all I can do is comment as I see fit.
I do wear my heart on my sleeve sometimes which can be weakness but it is done with the best of intention at all times.
I nearly stopped posting on here a while back due to the attitude of some but thought better of it and I'll continue to put my two penneth in in the future.
Can I just say thank you for continuing to post. I always look for your advice when I see something that might be of interest for me and mine ;)
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Just a thought - could she have had pain from her operation when playing and then associated it with the kids?
Now that is a possibility. :D which is why I suggested the kids hand feed her. ;)
Only just read this thread, I'm sorry Chloe isn't feeling her usual self. But this is the first thing I thought of too.
Especially if she's been dancing with your daughter since the op?
Morgan has bad eyesight when you're close up to him, but his reaction is to whine and move backwards if you're too close too quick (plus he always thinks you're going to feed him, piglet and he wants to see what you're giving him ;)).
She has danced with my daughter since the op, this kind of play happens between them once a month maybe tops! It's not a common occurrence and one I ask my daughter not to do as I've been trying to stop her jumping up when she's excited. This week is the first time since the op that I've allowed the kids to play with her at all. She's not a playful dog although has become more interested in playing with other dogs and playing with balls since her op strangely enough! But not with the kids.
Perhaps she's still in a little pain, and if her eyesight is annoying her too this may be a reason??? I'm sure your vet will be able to get to the bottom of it - hugs to you, Chloe and your daughter :luv:
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Adele - I too hope you get to the bottom of things; one thing that I noticed in your recent post is that you say that Chloe and your children rarely have that much to do with each other...?
Obviously, every household/dog/child is different, but in my experience, dogs tend to get more stressed by unusual, or infrequently occurring situations than they do by ones that they are totally familiar with and which are proven to be non-threatening. You refer to Chloe as your dog, which suggests that her relationship with you is very different to other members of the household - which will undoubtedly influence her behaviour towards them.
Once you have got to the bottom of her current behaviour (whether medical or behavioural) and have a clear plan for the future; perhaps Chloe could begin to play a bigger role in the childrens lives? There are so many reasons why this is to be encouraged, and ultimately, it can only improve their relationship and help you rebuild your trust in her :D
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As a mum and dog owner I can understand how awful you must be feeling right now and I just wanted to say that I was thinking of you :luv: I can't offer any advice but really hope you can get to the bottom of Chloes outburst and that its something that can be worked on, keep us informed how she gets on won't you, take care :-*
What Emma said - I hope you get on ok at the vet today :-*
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Just to add: I hope things went as well as they could
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Hope all went well at the vets.
Thinking of you!
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I'm sorry if some of my comments come across as disrespectful
Thankyou for the apology.
Adele, any news from the vets yet?
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Behaviour - what can I say? I'm no expert but I know my dog better than anybody else and this is so much out of character for her it really did shock me and I'm pretty unshockable in all aspects of life!
I know how you feel here Adele :-* It took me a while to even convince my OH over a change in Jock
We've had our usual walk this morning and I've just been going over and over in my head everything, I will wait to see what the vet says but at this moment in time I just don't want Chloe around to be completely honest, my kids mean the world to me and this incident has really shook me up.
I can also apreciate how you feel here too - you love chloe but this change has shocked and upset you and you HAVE to think of your children
I just hope the vet finds something that is the cause of this change in behaviour and it can be rectifyed easily and you can have both your lovely Chloe as well as keep your children safe too :D
Hope you post to update soon :luv: :-* {{Hugs}}
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Hormones - this is the only real thing that I can see being the problem and I will clearly be asking the vet for medical advice, the behaviourist last night said that it could be months before her hormones settle but she's not a vet so I won't rely on that until it's been backed up.
Also ask about thyroid problems as well --- I believe a low-normal result can produce a change. Another dog trainer I know here had her mum's springer tested and while it was low-normal and no need for supplementation her vet decided to give it a go and treat the dog as if he did have thyroid problems and it worked (he had also had sudden aggression problems). Some suggest its even better to get a woman in the US to check the blood test results out as she's the best.
Am not saying this will be your solution but needs trying as some vets will often just check a dog physically and then say nothing's wrong with them.
Plus even if you think your dog can see your daughter clearly you don't really know --- Ruby still looks at me with her missing eye ;)
Good luck.
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Not necessarily related to Chloe but as an example of how medical problems can cause dogs to start behaving differently... a few months back Jimmy became intolerant of me stroking him when he was crashed out in the evening, also if the other dogs got too close to him he'd grumble at them until they backed off. He didn't snap or bite but did growl (which he'd never done before in such situations, previously he'd have rolled onto his back to have his tummy tickled) and made it obvious he wasn't happy about things. I didn't think much of it and thought maybe he was getting older and just wanted to be left alone when he was asleep... let sleeping dogs lie and all that. It turned out he had a couple of abcesses and needed some teeth removed. Once this was done he went back to how he'd been previously - the poor thing must have been in real pain but had no way of letting me know... or had let me know in the only way he knew how but I'd not realised. :-\
As I say this isn't necessarily related to Chloe's sudden change in behaviour but it goes to show it's always best to rule out any kind of medical problem in such situations.
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only just caught up with all of this... any news from the vet, adele?
i can completely imagine your shock, especially as it is so out of character! i don't have kids but i now how upset i was the first time barkley snapped at me. you do feel differently about your dog when it acts in such a surprising manner.
i really hope the vet, and any behaviourists you consult, can help you pin point the reason for chloe's behaviour. there must be some reason for it...
i live with a dog that i know is capable of snapping. i can't say to people 'he wouldn't hurt a fly' and i can't trust him around other dogs without watching him closely for a minute or two at each encounter. i'd like to think i could trust him around people (and particularly children) as he has never shown any snappiness towards any people but me and my OH when we have mishandled him, but i will never be completely certain of him and therefore will always be aware of his interactions with any children who may come along. it must be much harder for anyone who suddenly has to adapt to such a situation at a later stage.
best of luck with everything.
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Hi Adele, just wondering how you got on at the vets with Chloe
Hope you are ok
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Hello Adele
Do hope things are better for you today. Do know how you must be feeling as have been through a situation years back.
I'm sure Chloe will be ok when sorted.
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For what it's worth I've had 2 dogs who have developed cataracts one who went completely blind and the other who ended up with very limited vision and both had sound natures before they deteriorated. I never noticed any changes to their personalities. They did not start biting or become agitated. We had young children when we had Bonnie and we just gave her her space and told the children not to touch her if she was in her basket or sleeping. We talked to her alot so she always knew when we were about to approach her.
I think for the time been I'd probably give her a bit of space and see if she'll settle in another room or the crate, have a chat with the children so that when they go past her they make her aware of their presence by talking before they reach her.
I'd also look into complications / pain from her op, sometimes adhesions can develop which although you will not see anything on the outside may be painful internally and cause her to be irritable or it may be a hormone re adjustment period which will settle in a while.
Hope the vets can help.
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I'd also look into complications / pain from her op, sometimes adhesions can develop which although you will not see anything on the outside may be painful internally and cause her to be irritable or it may be a hormone re adjustment period which will settle in a while.
Hope the vets can help.
thats exactly what i thought and said on an earlier posting, about the pain from the op,hope you got on ok at the vets today :blink:
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I sympathise with poor Chloe as I had a similar operation myself that same week! I could certainly have reacted badly/defensively to noisy kiddies. I hope that if you can separate them with a baby gate, problems may settle before becoming a habit. She may certainly still feel internal stitches twanging, and have, as I do, 'swelly-belly' which is extra fluid in sore tissues which is very very uncomfortable....
Hoping for the best x
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For what it's worth I've had 2 dogs who have developed cataracts one who went completely blind and the other who ended up with very limited vision and both had sound natures before they deteriorated. I never noticed any changes to their personalities. They did not start biting or become agitated. We had young children when we had Bonnie and we just gave her her space and told the children not to touch her if she was in her basket or sleeping. We talked to her alot so she always knew when we were about to approach her.
I think for the time been I'd probably give her a bit of space and see if she'll settle in another room or the crate, have a chat with the children so that when they go past her they make her aware of their presence by talking before they reach her.
I'd also look into complications / pain from her op, sometimes adhesions can develop which although you will not see anything on the outside may be painful internally and cause her to be irritable or it may be a hormone re adjustment period which will settle in a while.
Hope the vets can help.
What a very nice post.
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Thank you everyone so much for all your support, it means so much to me! I'm ever so sorry for not updating the thread after our visit, my head hasn't been quite right to say the least!
Well the update is Chloe is not in any apparent pain or discomfort, the vet can find nothing medically wrong with her (other than her eyes obviously) so is pretty much at a loss the same as me! Chloe is on a course of antibiotics and anti-inflammatories just in case she is in some kind of discomfort which the examination didn't reveal, the vet clearly saw how distressed I was and other than the obvious couldn't really offer any other suggestions. Since Thursday Chloe has only done one thing which I found out of character and that was to jump up at Clive whilst he was sat on the sofa, nothing malicious but there was no reason for her to do so. I've kept a very close eye on everyone and had a good talk with the kids and with Clive when they've been in bed discussing what I should do. I still have no idea!
Chloe's back at the vets on Tuesday for her booster jabs and my intention was to watch her over the weekend for any reactions or unusual behaviour and take the time to really think about what should be done. Clive offered to take Chloe to his tomorrow when he goes back but as she's at the vets I said not to at the moment.
I know in the back of my mind I feel like I should the most heart breaking decision but I'm not giving up on Chloe that easily. I still really don't trust her and it's very difficult to be around her at the moment but I know my emotions and behaviour will be picked up by her so trying very hard to act normally, not an easy task!
So apologies again for lack of an update, not really a huge update is it? I still feel no further forward!
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Oh Adele, I really feel for you... not having any answers is so hard.
There is nothing I can suggest or say really, but I'm thinking of you and really hope she's back to her normal self very soon.
Huge hugs
Hannah
xxxx
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:luv: :-*
I'm really sorry you are no further forward - thinking of you lots :luv: :-*
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:luv: :-*
I'm really sorry you are no further forward - thinking of you lots :luv: :-*
Same here, it must be a huge worry for you
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Thank you guys, it is a huge worry and I'm constantly on my toes but not much new there! LOL! Will keep you upto date with all and everything and see how the next couple of days go I guess!
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Cataracts can change and grow, so these still sound like a real cause to me. I'm going to guess that the incidents took place in the early evening when the light is changing? This seems to be a time when some dogs have the most difficulty, they don't seem to be able to make the adjustment to the change in light well :-\
A veterinary eye specialist could give you more info, but as far as I know the only treatment for cataracts is surgery. You might want to speak to a behaviourist to help you out with this also :blink:
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Well the update is Chloe is not in any apparent pain or discomfort, the vet can find nothing medically wrong with her (other than her eyes obviously) so is pretty much at a loss the same as me!
Did he do blood tests as well, as a full exam should include this to be able to say your dog is healthy
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I've just read through the whole thread and have drawn these comments together as I think they may be helpful. So sorry that you are having to experience this.
My daughter told me this morning that before Chloe went for her last night she looked up at Leigh for a moment so clearly saw her and then went for her, so to me that's not Chloe being startled, she looked up and saw my daughter then took action.
Ah, but was it Leigh she saw, or just a looming blurred shape that she didn't recognise? :-\
Cataracts can change and grow, so these still sound like a real cause to me. I'm going to guess that the incidents took place in the early evening when the light is changing? This seems to be a time when some dogs have the most difficulty, they don't seem to be able to make the adjustment to the change in light well :-\
My OH is blind and jumps out of his skin if I suddenly speak or touch him on the shoulder and he hasn't heard me come into the room.....
We talked to her alot so she always knew when we were about to approach her.
have a chat with the children so that when they go past her they make her aware of their presence by talking before they reach her.
I begin to talk before I enter the room now :005:
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Well the update is Chloe is not in any apparent pain or discomfort, the vet can find nothing medically wrong with her (other than her eyes obviously) so is pretty much at a loss the same as me!
Did he do blood tests as well, as a full exam should include this to be able to say your dog is healthy
Nope, no blood tests were done Penny, very good point! ph34r
I'm going to speak to the eye specialists tomorrow, slightly nervous and embarassed as I went bankrupt owing them money :embarassed: Hopefully they won't hold that against me :-\ Going to be a struggle to fork out the money in advance that's the only problem as well, gawd what a mess! :'(
The one thing with her eyes that concerns me and has done from the day it was diagnosed is that if I put her under the stress of the huge operation to have the cataracts removed she's only 2 and they can come back! If she was an elderly dog there are obviously other implications with the anaesthetic but I have said since diagnosis that unless it is totally necessary I won't put her under the stress of the op, especially as they could come back :-\ How many times could I potentially put her through this experience and operation? :huh:
Her behaviour has been back to normal over the weekend which I'm very grateful for and we experienced a nice cuddle earlier which I've not been able to do since last week ph34r So I'm trying to rebuild the trust as it's not a happy house at the moment.
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Hand feed her Adele, great trust and bond builder, if not the kids then you.
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Hand feed her Adele, great trust and bond builder, if not the kids then you.
I'll 2nd that
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I'm glad the weekend has seen a little improvement. I'm sure it will keep improving
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ONly just caught up with this, how heart breaking for you. I really hope something sorts itself out and you get your old Chloe back xx (fingers crossed its the hormone levels sending her funny xx)
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Thanks everyone, I'll hand feed her at tea time although I am not in the slightest worried about that, the kids I will encourage to practice the leave command with her to engage them in the training activities but knowing the ole gal she'll be fine, always has been unless the cats venture too close to her food! The only food she will protect/guard are pork strips and they don't last long :005: