Author Topic: Dog Whisperer  (Read 5080 times)

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Offline jmch

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 04:49:52 PM »
just got to say i think there are a lot of ignorant people out there i think cm brings something new to the table in the way of positive thinking and respecting the dogs animal instincts im not saying his thinking is the be all and end all because there is probably a lot of great trainers out there with other good ideas.to say this man is cruel is utter rubbish from what i have seen how can he be when he has taken dogs off the streets and given them food water and a relaxing and safe home!.to walk a pack of over 20 dogs would take some doing so i think to do that he must have something special.people will have seen him touching the dogs and pulling on there leads is this cruel?!!! they are animals not babies. :o
 

Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 05:02:16 PM »
Why is there so much interest in CM at the moment?   :huh: Am I missing something?   :huh: There seem to be loads of people asking about him at the moment  >:(




Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 05:12:57 PM »
just got to say i think there are a lot of ignorant people out there i think cm brings something new to the table in the way of positive thinking and respecting the dogs animal instincts im not saying his thinking is the be all and end all because there is probably a lot of great trainers out there with other good ideas.to say this man is cruel is utter rubbish from what i have seen how can he be when he has taken dogs off the streets and given them food water and a relaxing and safe home!.to walk a pack of over 20 dogs would take some doing so i think to do that he must have something special.people will have seen him touching the dogs and pulling on there leads is this cruel?!!! they are animals not babies. :o

Welcome to COL, John  :D Have you got a cocker spaniel, or other breeds of dog?  Can we see pictures? We tend to be rather superficial like that   :005:

Once you get to know us and our dogs I'm sure you will begin to understand why we think CM doesn't set the best example as a dog trainer  ;)
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Offline supaspaniel

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 05:14:06 PM »
just got to say i think there are a lot of ignorant people out there i think cm brings something new to the table

ignorant is a strong term...and like yourself, others are entitled to an opinion  ;)
 
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Offline Colin

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 05:20:25 PM »
just got to say i think there are a lot of ignorant people out there

Different opinions are fine as long as they are expressed in a polite and reasonable manner - however, referring to ther forum members as "ignorant" is against the T&Cs of the site and will not be tolerated. A guide to forum etiquette can be read HERE.

This pretty well sums up my own personal views on Cesar Milan...

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

... a fossil hanging onto discredited, outdated beliefs and methods - rather than someone bringing anything new to the table.

Offline Helen

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2008, 05:38:25 PM »
Interesting first post to make John - wondering why you didn't introduce yourself and your dog(s) before launching into a pro-milan thread?

helen & jarvis x


Offline SusieWoo

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2008, 01:07:04 PM »
Is it 'the' dog whisperer aka Cesar Milan? If so then I'd probably use said article to line the bottom of the cat's litter tray  ;)

If it is Cesar Milan I don't think he would advocate speaking at all so it must be someone else.  I have tried Cesar's methods of "tssssing" and pointing to my friends Cavaliers with successful results.  One off them knows sign language because he is not deaf.  He can also lip read "biscuit"!

 :005:

In what context did you use these methods? and please do describe the positive results you achieved.
Mark

The context it was used was whilst at my friend's house we had a Chinese takeaway delivery at the kitchen door.  My friend's method of control is to shut the door on the dogs and let them carry on barking and pogo-ing, which they do because it's a glass door and they can see the delivery person.  I opened the door, blocked them with my body (legs really), "tsssss"ed at them and pointed to their beds in the living room.  Initially they tried to squeeze past me but I'm not one for giving up easily and moved around so that they couldn't get past me.  I then moved towards them so they knew I meant business, they then backed off and retreated to their beds.  I didn't have to say a word, they could tell from my body language and the "tsssss" that their barking and pogo behaviour was not acceptable.   

I also apply this to my partner's mother's Dachs x although she's a tougher nut to crack!   :005:  She's far more persistent and the problem being she doesn't get any consistent training from "mum" or my partner.  They both spoil her rotten as she's a rescue and small and they feel sorry for her ... still after four years!!  She's a lovely little dog and she's very lucky to live with "mum" but the spoiling her means she get's away with murder. 

Hope this helps.  :D

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Offline SusieWoo

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2008, 01:14:35 PM »
Why is there so much interest in CM at the moment?   :huh: Am I missing something?   :huh: There seem to be loads of people asking about him at the moment  >:( 

Siddle51 quoted seeing an article by the Dog Whisperer in the Telegraph and I queried which one ... there seem to be a lot of people claiming to be the Dog Whisperer and I was merely enquiring which one the Telegraph had featured.  I was given another Dog Whisperer book for Christmas which was so airy fairy I couldn't believe it!  I managed to swop it for a Jan Fennell book at the weekend.
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Offline Top Barks

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2008, 02:05:15 PM »
Is it 'the' dog whisperer aka Cesar Milan? If so then I'd probably use said article to line the bottom of the cat's litter tray  ;)

If it is Cesar Milan I don't think he would advocate speaking at all so it must be someone else.  I have tried Cesar's methods of "tssssing" and pointing to my friends Cavaliers with successful results.  One off them knows sign language because he is not deaf.  He can also lip read "biscuit"!

 :005:

In what context did you use these methods? and please do describe the positive results you achieved.
Mark

The context it was used was whilst at my friend's house we had a Chinese takeaway delivery at the kitchen door.  My friend's method of control is to shut the door on the dogs and let them carry on barking and pogo-ing, which they do because it's a glass door and they can see the delivery person.  I opened the door, blocked them with my body (legs really), "tsssss"ed at them and pointed to their beds in the living room.  Initially they tried to squeeze past me but I'm not one for giving up easily and moved around so that they couldn't get past me.  I then moved towards them so they knew I meant business, they then backed off and retreated to their beds.  I didn't have to say a word, they could tell from my body language and the "tsssss" that their barking and pogo behaviour was not acceptable.   

I also apply this to my partner's mother's Dachs x although she's a tougher nut to crack!   :005:  She's far more persistent and the problem being she doesn't get any consistent training from "mum" or my partner.  They both spoil her rotten as she's a rescue and small and they feel sorry for her ... still after four years!!  She's a lovely little dog and she's very lucky to live with "mum" but the spoiling her means she get's away with murder. 

Hope this helps.  :D



The reason I asked is cos I'm not a great fan of threatening and intimidating my dogs to get them to do what I want, and as I thought you have just demonstrated that is the angle you took in this case. ;)
If it worked for you then fine but what have you taught the dogs?
Does your friend now use this method?
How do you think these dogs feel about someone coming to the door in the future if when they do they get threatened every time? ph34r
These methods may work for a time but they are teaching the dog nothing apart from you are someone to be afraid of and is that what you want?
This is what Cesar Milan calls dominance, personally I call it bullying. >:D
I am the leader in my house and have the most wonderful relationship with my boys, I don't need to intimidate or threaten. A wild alpha wolf is the provider not a bully and this is where Milans interpretation of what being Alpha is all about hits a bit of a snag.
There is too much confusion regarding the term dominance and it is and has been completely misused by many dog trainers to disguise what in some cases was physical and mental abuse directed at the dog. I admit I was guilty of this before I knew better. >:(
Far better to train an appropriate response or manage the situation better in the first place than go down this route.
Punishment can go wrong and can lead to worse behaviour in the long run.
This method suppresses the behaviour and does not address the root of the problem and is often only a temporary fix.
As for Jan fennel well I have read all her books and enjoyed them until I realised through experience and wider study that I did not agree with a lot of what she said either. The thing with these guys is they are on the TV so they must be right, well so was Barbara woodhouse and she talked some absolute c**p too. :005:
 Milan and Fennel both rely on outdated dominance, wolf pack theory models that have been argued by leading academics to be inappropriate and misleading when it comes to the domestic dog.
Dogs through many generations of artificial selective breeding are not wolves and do not live as such so why try to impose wolf pack rules? (which are misinterpreted anyway by these peoplein the first place.)
Having studied canine behaviour to degree level it is now fairly easy for me to spot both the merits and failings of both Milan and fennel but there are a lot of armchair dog trainers out there who know no better and get sucked in. >:(
I would reccomend you have a look at Dominance fact or fiction, the culture clash and the complete idiots guide to positive dog training to get a different outlook and see if you still agree with Milan and fennel.
Mark

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2008, 02:38:44 PM »
I agree with everything Mark has said in his last post  :blink:

I myself have personally never seen anything done by CM that has caused me one bit of concern towards a dog. BUT how many times have we seen him training dogs from day 1 (ie puppies) and just normally behaved dogs, I havent all the dogs he has been on tv helping have had major problems due to their owners not having a clue in the 1st place and  some the most dangerous dogs that are banned from this country which he has taken on and none of them to me show any signs of major fear from the man and live quite happily all together  :-\ . I really am a person that likes to soak up everything, see it first hand and then decide, unless there is an immediate show of physical brutality or punishment leading to a dog suffereing in pain then I like to find out more, not so I can train my lot to someone elses ways as I dont use anybodies methods, ive stolen sippets from numerious people and moulded it to suit my dogs and me. Infact mine get very little training now, just the very basics, they live a very free relaxed life and I live with them as part of them as a combined unit. I have found especially with Goose and Otter that being relaxed is the best form of training. Goose is now a different dog and Otter, well he has huge potential in the working field and already is streets ahead for his age  :-\ Why, because I understand what goes on in my dogs brains and have learned to communicate with them through sheer bond and team work, rather than any other form of training I have ever tried before  :D


Offline SusieWoo

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2008, 05:09:11 PM »
The reason I asked is cos I'm not a great fan of threatening and intimidating my dogs to get them to do what I want, and as I thought you have just demonstrated that is the angle you took in this case. ;)
If it worked for you then fine but what have you taught the dogs?
Does your friend now use this method?
How do you think these dogs feel about someone coming to the door in the future if when they do they get threatened every time? ph34r
These methods may work for a time but they are teaching the dog nothing apart from you are someone to be afraid of and is that what you want?
This is what Cesar Milan calls dominance, personally I call it bullying. >:D
I am the leader in my house and have the most wonderful relationship with my boys, I don't need to intimidate or threaten. A wild alpha wolf is the provider not a bully and this is where Milans interpretation of what being Alpha is all about hits a bit of a snag.
There is too much confusion regarding the term dominance and it is and has been completely misused by many dog trainers to disguise what in some cases was physical and mental abuse directed at the dog. I admit I was guilty of this before I knew better. >:(
Far better to train an appropriate response or manage the situation better in the first place than go down this route.
Punishment can go wrong and can lead to worse behaviour in the long run.
This method suppresses the behaviour and does not address the root of the problem and is often only a temporary fix.
As for Jan fennel well I have read all her books and enjoyed them until I realised through experience and wider study that I did not agree with a lot of what she said either. The thing with these guys is they are on the TV so they must be right, well so was Barbara woodhouse and she talked some absolute c**p too. :005:
 Milan and Fennel both rely on outdated dominance, wolf pack theory models that have been argued by leading academics to be inappropriate and misleading when it comes to the domestic dog.
Dogs through many generations of artificial selective breeding are not wolves and do not live as such so why try to impose wolf pack rules? (which are misinterpreted anyway by these peoplein the first place.)
Having studied canine behaviour to degree level it is now fairly easy for me to spot both the merits and failings of both Milan and fennel but there are a lot of armchair dog trainers out there who know no better and get sucked in. >:(
I would reccomend you have a look at Dominance fact or fiction, the culture clash and the complete idiots guide to positive dog training to get a different outlook and see if you still agree with Milan and fennel.
Mark

If the only reason you asked what context I had used CM's methods was to shoot me down in flames then I think that's really sad!

I don't have a dog at the moment, but am hoping to get one in the future.  I live alone and work all day and am responsible enough to know not to get a dog, as much as I would absolutely love to have one.  A lot of other people wouldn't even bother with this train of thought.  In the meantime, I am trying to learn as much as possible about training and behaviour so that I can make up my own mind what seems to be right or wrong.  I have said in other posts that I do not condone everything that CM has to say or do.  The same goes for JF.  However, when confronting the Cavs I do not consider I used to quote you "threatening or intimidating behaviour".  I merely blocked their path so they couldn't run at the poor delivery person.  I never shouted or scolded and certainly made no attempt or threat to physically abuse them.  They were happy to back off as I walked towards them quite calmly.  You might call it bullying and you are entitled to your opinion, but I am also entitled to mine!

Personally, I have not seen Ms JF on the tv I have only read her first book and have now started her second.  I do have others on my wish list.  I do think some of her methods seem a bit long-winded.  However, I have not had the privilege of studying up to degree level like you, nor do I have the time nor the funds.  I am trying to learn as much as I can by whatever method I can before getting a dog, by whatever means I can.  I can't read every book that's out there and certainly not all of them at once.

I agree with what someone else said in that CM only appears to deal with problem dogs (or rather problem owners) and having said that, dogs that Ms JF would probably not touch with a barge pole, from what she says in her book introductions about certain breeds and behaviours.  She would seem to advocate them being PTS rather than someone like CM trying to give them a better life. 

If CM's training methods are so outdated and inappropriate then why has he not been reported for cruelty or been investigated and why are his programmes still being shown in this country of supposed animal lovers?  You have referred to punishment, but CM would never advocate that. 

You also stated "Dogs through many generations of artificial selective breeding are not wolves and do not live as such so why try to impose wolf pack rules?"  What about feral dogs in say Asian countries?  Do these not live in packs and do they not have a pack leader?  What other rules have they made up for themselves?

At the end of the day I haven't read anything yet that, in my mind, dispels the "pack" theory. 
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Offline Colin

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2008, 05:28:46 PM »

If the only reason you asked what context I had used CM's methods was to shoot me down in flames then I think that's really sad!


Susie, you have already been pointed in the direction of the Forum Etiquette guide once today but don't appear to have read it. Such language as "shooting down in flames" and calling people "sad" is not acceptable and not necessary for discussion - it just causes bad feeling with the end result that any sensible form of debate gets lost. Please consider this a final warning.

Here's the link again... Forum Etiquette.


Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2008, 05:43:55 PM »
I agree with Cazzie in that I've taken different bits and pieces from lots of different trainers/owners and apply what works with my dogs. I've made mistakes and I've also been caught out because I've been too confident in some much praised training methods. I'd also like to add that in my limited experience (I've owned two cockers and a re-homed Weimaraner), different breeds and dogs respond to different things Clicker training works brilliantly with my cocker... it doesn't with my Weim.

My cocker responds to excitement and encouragement, my weim responds better to quiet calm instruction.. Their different physical attributes have also dictated to a certain extent how I've had to deal with certain problems - it's one thing having a little cocker pulling or lunging on a lead - it's another having a big strong Weim that weighs more than you reacting in certain ways because they are scared. There are things I've had to do with my Weim that I would never dream of doing with my cocker - choke chain for example. Now this didn't mean that I wasn't focusing on positive style training with her but I had to have a safety fall back too.

I certainly don't agree with everything that CM says or the way he deals with some things but he does have a calm relaxed manner which he clearly tries to teach owners too and I do feel that this can give nervous/excitable dogs confidence and is not a bad thing IMO.. A lot of the best owner/handlers I've met or seen have a similar demeanor with their dogs and their dogs are relaxed and happy. I'm also not sure how making a little noise to distract a dog at a crucial moment is a very bad thing either?

On the original note of this thread (!) I do talk to my dogs in English because that's where we live and it makes it easier for people who occasionally look after them  ;) But I have heard that dogs used by the forces or police are sometimes trained in different languages to the country they work in to stop baddies being able to give them commands!

Hannah x


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Offline Maria

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2008, 06:14:52 PM »
I wouldn't let that man near any of my dogs , no matter how 'bad' their behaviour. Imho he is just an out and out bully.
The best advice I read was to watch his show with the sound off - and just watch the dog's body language :-\ He tries to break dogs, not mend them, in the same way that some people get beaten into submission.
When we first got a dog we tried JF's methods - all that did was give us an unhappy dog. Now from lots of reading / experience it's positive methods all the way......

Offline Helen

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Re: Dog Whisperer
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2008, 06:19:52 PM »
I wouldn't let that man near any of my dogs , no matter how 'bad' their behaviour. Imho he is just an out and out bully.
The best advice I read was to watch his show with the sound off - and just watch the dog's body language :-\ He tries to break dogs, not mend them, in the same way that some people get beaten into submission.
When we first got a dog we tried JF's methods - all that did was give us an unhappy dog. Now from lots of reading / experience it's positive methods all the way......

I watched the show with the sound off Maria, and I bawled my eyes out  :'( :'(  It really is an eye opener. 

I also watched that South Park programme *starring* CM - although it was tongue in cheek, it was incredibly astute.
helen & jarvis x