Shocked! Chloe keeps going for the kids!

[Ori1]

Sorry Ori, I didn't take you as meaning she was nasty at all, the last 2 times she was just laid in the hallway when my daughter walked past, not in a playful mood whatsoever.

That's absolutely fine - just didn't want you getting the wrong impression of what I'd said - lol!!!!

I really hope your little chloe gets sorted!!!!

[Ori1]

How do you know this has anything to do with status?
Have you had a dog with cateracts? You always seem to jump on the dominance band waggon, you really need to be careful when giving behavioural advice as some owners who know no better may take you up on trying to reduce the dogs "rank" and that could make matters even worse.
Rank reduction programmes are fraught with danger and very outdated.
Hormone imbalances and behavioural changes due to health I can buy, but I'm sorry this dog is not trying to make a bid for world domination.
confident dogs do not often show aggression, they don't need to because they are sure of their status, insecure dogs or dogs in pain however do.

Mark, the whole point of a 'forum' is to talk about ideas - and NOT bid for world domination ourselves...think you are being a bit harsh.

You paint the picture of 'dominance' theory as such as bad thing - however when reading any of the early fisher or burch and bailey stuff (yes referring to your other article too)there is never any hint of 'making' the dog suffer in the harsh way that you describe - much of the advice boils down to rewarding wanted behaviour and ignoring unwanted - which is the basis of ANY training be it dog, human or whatever!!!!!

I agree other factors maybe featuring here, but to act so vehemently towards someone I think goes against a whole forum attitude...and certainly doesn't lead to us all having an open debate...You often use 'in my humble opinion' - think you taught me it - but does your posts imply that yours is less humble than the rest of ours?

It certainly leaves me feeling it's pointless having a behaviour section on here (unless questions are only answered by qualified behaviourists) if we can't all share ideas/experience etc...what IS the point??

[Helen]

Really think that it's not Mark thats out of line her Ori1 but you...  - IF the advice given is potentially damaging (which in some cases this dominance rubbish is) then a qualified behaviourist has every right to comment.  I think the proof comes when all these 'theories' have been tried on dogs and people like Mark have to pick up the pieces and try to put the dog back together 

It is really dangerous for us to comment on behavioural issues on a forum - we can only give advice but if the advice is clearly flawed then I for one am grateful for the intervention of someone qualified.

[Ori1]

It is really dangerous for us to comment on behavioural issues on a forum - we can only give advice but if the advice is clearly flawed then I for one am grateful for the intervention of someone qualified.

I totally agree with you - hence my point about not having this section that we all write on - it's absolutely pointless!

[Karma]

There are lots of behavioural issues where people can share experiences and give advice - but where aggressive behaviour is the issue the best advice that can be given is to seek a professional.  If the professionals who are members here can give some tips about managing the situation in the meantime, that is great, but any steps to rectify the situation need to be taken under the advice of someone who has seen the situation!   

[LisaB]

I never mentioned the word "dominance", just referred to some structured training in a class, so the children know how to behave around the dog - and suggested a VET FIRST!!

What is this word "dominance "that gets people so wound up, ready to assume that it is the only train of thought one inflexibley embraces? Or is it the aversive methods of intervention some think fit a dominance description? It's certainly not in my vocab. 

[aledlewis]

Anyway Adele - I'm no expert and so won't be offering advise - but understand how upsetting it is for you and the kids.

But I would recommend you suggest the receptionist sees a behaviourist and perhaps gets some firm training herself.

Sounds like a case of a receptionist who feels she ought to be a vet!

Hope all goes well. I'm sure there's a very easy to solve solution and the children will dancing with Chloe again very soon x

[Jane S]

I never mentioned the word "dominance", just referred to some structured training in a class, so the children know how to behave around the dog - and suggested a VET FIRST!!

Lisa, you did say "It may not be what you want to hear but it sounds like she has developed into a bossyboots around them" but you can't possibly know this - Chloe could be biting out of fear/association with past pain/confusion due to sight problems/hormone imbalance, etc etc. The list is endless ..... The fact is none of us can say why Chloe is behaving like she is because we weren't there at the time and we don't know her or her family. If you'd just stuck to the sensible suggestion about a vet consultation & possibly structured training to follow, nobody would have said anything but it's the "sounds like bossy behaviour to me" comment which was rightly challenged (rightly because nobody on this forum is in a position to make this kind of diagnosis)

I totally agree with you - hence my point about not having this section that we all write on - it's absolutely pointless!

If you meant this, you surely wouldn't spend so much of your time reading and posting on this board (you've posted far more on this board than on any other). It's also quite noticeable that whenever there is a difference of opinion on any behaviour thread, you're there posting comments like the above which aren't constructive and which seemed designed to provoke. If you don't like this board, then don't read or post in it - it's quite simple really. If you do want to continue coming here, then less of the above type of comment please (this is your final warning)

[LisaB]

Jane, just a "sounds like TO ME" is not fact.  It's opinion only.  I welcome challenge, but in a respectful way, surely.  It was picked up that the tone of the response to me was not respectfully put.  Sorry if any offence was caused on my part, but the use of the word bossyboots was meant with a wry smile, rather than a declaration of dominance requiring interventions in relation to those type which cause offense to behaviourists. I was misunderstood.

[*Theresa*]

It is really dangerous for us to comment on behavioural issues on a forum - we can only give advice but if the advice is clearly flawed then I for one am grateful for the intervention of someone qualified.

I totally agree with you - hence my point about not having this section that we all write on - it's absolutely pointless!

See I thought this board was for people top post questions on yes, and get support from people yes, but another use for it and the one I use it for....and this may be selfish but it's what I do...is just to read it and to take all the information on board so you can learn more and then if you have a potential problem with your dog you can search through the threads already on here and see what is said to get it sorted quicker.

I am not sure I have ever posted on this board...I may have done but I guess mine would be the useless 'I hope you get this sorted quickly' type of answer rather than advice....sometimes I think if someone is going through the mill it is helpful to know that people are thinking of them and supporting them but I do not offer advice as I don't know enough to be able to do so.

It is up to Adele now who's advice she is to take but I know from what I have seen posted be it in videos of his dogs in action and other advice given I would hold Marks in the highest regard and pay his the most attention....why would you not take the most qualified advice given

[Top Barks]

I'm sorry if some of my comments come across as disrespectful but I get fed up with picking up the pieces when people are given bad advice on forum's or in the pub, or from the vet.
If people don't like my oppinions  then fine, not really bothered to be honest, all I can do is comment as I see fit.
I do wear my heart on my sleeve sometimes which can be weakness but it is done with the best of intention at all times.
I nearly stopped posting on here a while back due to the attitude of some but thought better of it and I'll continue to put my two penneth in in the future.
My best advice to any one is that if you want to post on aggression which can be a serious issue then please be sure of the facts or what you are saying before you give advice.
This is not the dog peeing on the carpet here, there is the potential for injury or even death to the dog and owner.
In light of this please excuse my ranting at what I consider bad advice given.

[ClareB]

Glad you haven't been put off posting, Mark, I personally think your advice is invaluable.     I don't often post on the behaviour board as I'm no expert, but I know what methods of training I use and those I think are bunkum! 

Adele, I really hope you get to the bottom of Chloe's behaviour and you can get back to have a peaceful hooman/dog household again soon.   

[Magic Star]

Goodness me guys, reign it in a bit   Adele was asking for advice as shes clearly upset and confused about Chloes behaviour.  Would be an awful shame for Adele and others in similar situations if this thread ended up getting locked!

Adele, as a mum and dog owner I can understand how awful you must be feeling right now and I just wanted to say that I was thinking of you   I can't offer any advice but really hope you can get to the bottom of Chloes outburst and that its something that can be worked on, keep us informed how she gets on won't you, take care 

[Jane S]

Jane, just a "sounds like TO ME" is not fact.  It's opinion only.  ...... I was misunderstood.

I was misunderstood.

Yes perhaps you were misunderstood but I can clearly see why your "bossyboots" comment and reference to the "pack" were taken the way they were. You say you were only giving an opinion but I personally don't see how anyone could give this kind of opinion without personal knowledge and observation of the dog concerned. With potentially serious problems like this, we all need to be careful what we say & remember that behavioural problems involving aggression cannot be solved via the internet as it is too easy to make assumptions that are completely wrong with potentially disastrous results.

Right, let's get this thread back on track now & please let's address any further comments to Adele's situation rather than arguing amongst ourselves. Any further disruptive posts which are clearly not designed to help (not aimed at you Lisa) will be removed.

[*Adele*]

Thank you so much everyone for your replies and assistance, sorry I've dug up a few, erm... quarrels for want of a better term.

Well we're off to the vets at 12.30 to seek medical advice, I'm still very much in shock and keep going over everything that's happened, everyone's thoughts and advice and I'm not any clearer I don't think. One thing that keeps coming up in my mind though is that I really don't trust Chloe now, I know we can never trust dogs 100% of the time, I'm not that naive. All three incidents were slightly different and the only running theme is it's been around the same time each day and it's been the kids not me.

It's really difficult for me to try and explain a few things I guess which leave me even more confused. Chloe and the kids rarely have that much to do with each other, the kids' just aren't that interested to be honest! She's my dog and I'm around her, other than overnight when she's in her crate asleep, almost 24/7 so thought I was pretty clued up on her and her behaviour. I don't believe it's a food thing, she wasn't hungry at any of the times anything happened, she was nowhere near her food, her bed, her toys, balls, treats anything.

My daughter told me this morning that before Chloe went for her last night she looked up at Leigh for a moment so clearly saw her and then went for her, so to me that's not Chloe being startled, she looked up and saw my daughter then took action.

Her eyesight - again, I'm pretty sure that if her eyesight had altered in a substantial way to warrant a change in behaviour I would have noticed, I could be wrong and I'll clearly speak to the vet about it.

Behaviour - what can I say? I'm no expert but I know my dog better than anybody else and this is so much out of character for her it really did shock me and I'm pretty unshockable in all aspects of life!

Hormones - this is the only real thing that I can see being the problem and I will clearly be asking the vet for medical advice, the behaviourist last night said that it could be months before her hormones settle but she's not a vet so I won't rely on that until it's been backed up.

I appreciate your advice on training with the kids Mark but I really don't think this would alter the situation, she's not going for the kids due to play or food, other than the first time it happened nobody was doing anything untoward whatsoever.

We've had our usual walk this morning and I've just been going over and over in my head everything, I will wait to see what the vet says but at this moment in time I just don't want Chloe around to be completely honest, my kids mean the world to me and this incident has really shook me up.

I will let you all know how we get on and thank you once again for all the posts on the thread and the pm's which I am on my way over to now to reply to.

Thank you!