Help Please - my cocker scared of all other dogs.

[ziggy9269]

I hope anyone can give me some advice about my problem. It is a little long my story so I do apologise.

My cocker, Lily is 2 years old. 2 years ago she was mauled, when 5 months old, by a Japanese Akita. She was like a rag in its mouth, held in its mouth by her tummy and I really thought she was dead. She was screaming and crying and the owner of the other dog, casually walked over and started swearing and threatening me, saying it was my fault (nutcase). He grabbed his dog and walked away to his friend and they were laughing at me. I was in tears, shouting for help and even thought there were other people around - NO-ONE helped... I still get upset about this ( I am getting upset now as I type this). Lily was patched up and I did get the police involved. Nothing done really - he denied everything when the police went round to his house....   

After that any dogs who came near, Lily was scrambling up my legs and crying and shaking.

Now, she will not tolerate ANY other dog, what-so-ever. If we are sat for example in an outdoor tearoom, cafe, ice-cream parlour, she continuously barks to the point where we have to get up and leave. She goes mad if anything comes near her, growling and barking, chasing any dog who comes near her. I have to be so careful if we are out at our favourite spot - the beach - as sometimes friendly dogs (who obviously want to play) come over, she snaps at them and chases them away. The bigger the dog, the worse she is. The number of times, I have to shout to people to keep their dogs away, as "mine does not like other dogs”, is unbelievable.

I have had her to 3 different dog training clubs and trainers and every time, she growls at the dogs in the group and CONSTANTLY barks, where we have had to take her into an other room out of the way. I am at my whits end now.

All I want is for my little dog to be able to run and play with other dogs, and not fear the chance of her attacking anything. She is absolutely fine with people and it is really upsetting me, that because of that swine who let his dog nearly kill mine, I have been left with a little dog who will not tolerate any other dog.

Lily is an absoulte sweetheart at home, loving, friendly, a real soppy thing - who even enjoys a lovely foot massage (  ) and a tummy tickle.

I was wanting another cocker at some point, but with this problem with Lily, I don’t think it is a good idea with her behaviour with other dogs. We took her earlier this year to see her mum and sister, and because Sadie (her sister) ran into the living room - to say hello of course - Lily started SCREAMING and ran behind the settee.

Any ideas from anyone at all? I am so frustated with the whole thing and I do not know what to do next. I have asked the Vet for advice but all they suggested was a training course, which I have tried but has not helped....

Sorry again for the long post   

Thanks in advance - Lily (and me) 

[Sarah/G]

Maybe a long shot, but could you maybe try her on a calming med, like skullcap from Dorwest Herbs, it might take the edge off her fear enough to work with a trainer and yourself.
They also have Valarian compound which is good for high anxiety situations when you need that little extra help.
Just a thought x

[Pearly]

Gosh what a terrifying experience you must have had and poor Lily to be hurt by another dog.   to you both...

My immediate thought is to be thankful that you have a happy Lily most of the time, she's healthy and gets on with humans - why try to make her like, or trust, other dogs?  I understand that you really want her to be like other cockers and enjoy her time out being relaxed around other dogs but is that too much to ask from her when she's been through such an experience?  

Pearl was attacked on her first walk out, on the lead.  Sadly, it was my friends dog and completely unexpected to us both - naturally its caused tension between Sal and myself; I've not seen her dog since and Pearl now has a distinct dislike of big brown dogs - can't say I blame her either......18 months on and we still have some issues, out walking, which I believe stem back to that one incident - and it was no where near as bad as Lily experienced.  

I should mention that I have taken great care to be relaxed around big brown dogs, with Pearl, as I'm sure she picks up if I'm anxious......

We've been to a behaviourist, really for my benefit as I'd like to do the best I can for her.  I wanted Pearl to join in the fun with Brodie and Jinley on walks, generally she prefers to be closer to me although at random times she will join in it's always a bit tentative - she seems to get so far then chicken out!  To be honest, I really just have to accept that Pearl gets stressed / over excited if there are other dogs around that are "misbehaving" in her view! Yes, she is miss goody two shoes now and comes back to me to tell them off  we have some coping strategies and she is getting better - or at least I think she is.

Lily sounds such a lovely girl in every other way....all our dogs have their idiosyncrasies, maybe this is just part of her makeup now?

Perhaps others on here have had a different experience - or more experience than I have, I just wanted to share that you are not alone in having a dog that reacts to others due to past history.

Jayne
x
[modified to read a bit better as I was tired when I wrote it last night]

[Ninasmum]

I totally agree with Jayne 
& so sorry Lily had this awful experience 
Nina had a couple of scary experience's when she was younger & it did/has affected her badly 
Some dogs are more sensitive/nervous than others & it might be (as i have with Nina) you have to accept & manage how Lily reacts in various situations. 
Nina was well socialised from a very early age, she went to ringcraft, 2 seperate training classes, walked a lot with other dogs & we had a behavourist visit too, but despite everything i now accept this is how she is....on top of everything else she was diagnosed with GPRA earlier this year & is now almost blind. 
She still barks at other dogs/people, although this has subsided a little as she has got older but we now have the added problem of her being startled in various situations.
I would never take her to a busy area where there maybe lots of dogs/people because she will go into 'meltdown'  so i walk her in quiet area's, play ball with her, take her over the N.F occasionally & also to Hydrotherapy for fun swimming lessons.  She still has a wonderful quality of life but its far from a normal dog's life. 

The one thing that does help is a friend on here has a very laid back Vizla  & we occasionally go walking with him & his owner Caz.  Nina will now happily walk alongside him (its so sweet to watch) because he is no threat to her whatsoever & totally ignore's her. 
If you could find someone with a laid back dog to walk Lily with, this may help boost her confidence.   
Lots of  's  Its hard isn't it 

[elaine.e]

I'm so sorry that you and Lily had such a terrible experience and I'm guessing you're as traumatised by it as poor Lily, and I can fully understand that. No dog or owner is going to get over such a horrific experience easily or quickly.

My younger Cocker, Louis, was attacked by a Lurcher over 2 years ago. The attack wasn't as bad as the one poor Lily endured but I thought Louis was going to be killed and the experience left him unable to cope with other dogs and me incredibly anxious about taking him anywhere. Louis was 11 months old when it happened and he went from being a slightly anxious dog to being incredibly reactive to any dog that came near, a sort of get-in-first-ask-questions-later reactivity.

I've worked hard since then to find ways of helping Louis to stay calm around other dogs and we're making progress. But I'm sure he'll never be 100% with other dogs and that I'm always going to have to be very pro-active in managing his walks. It's hard work and I've had to accept that I'll never be able to do the things that I wanted to with Louis because he can't cope with being close to other dogs, especially if he's on lead. I've given up on training classes because he can't cope with a group of dogs. It just blows his mind and he can't focus on me at all and has no self control.

When we're walking we're lucky enough to be in open spaces (New Forest) with no road walking so Louis is off lead. I have to be watchful all the time and make decisions on Louis's behalf about how close to other dogs we can safely go without him losing self control and chasing, barking and growling. Initially I trained him to do a "watch me" where he sits in front of me and focuses on me while other dogs walk past. It can work well as long as the other dog doesn't come over to investigate. Another tactic is for me to reward every calm action he makes. For instance, if a dog is at a distance and Louis looks at it but does nothing I quietly praise and reward him. If I have to put him on lead for any reason and he's able to walk past another dog at a distance without pulling and barking I quietly praise and reward. If he barks and lunges I don't tell him off but walk on until he's calmed down.

It's very hard work and we have failures. I can predict fairly accurately what Louis will do but not always what other dogs will do. My goal all the time is to keep Louis calm because if he's calm he has enough self-control to make a good decision and not react. Once he starts reacting he's lost the self-control and it can take a few days to get it back again. But on a good day he can now be quite close to quiet, non-reactive dogs and can cope, so we're making progress.

It's really tough and very isolating owning a reactive dog, so I fully sympathise with what you're going through with Lily. I have an 8 year old Cocker as well as Louis but I've had to accept that if I lose my older boy before Louis I won't be able to introduce another dog into the household. Louis is a sweetheart at home but I'm absolutely sure he wouldn't accept a new dog in the house and it would be disastrous.

Have you thought of trying some one to one sessions with a good behaviourist? Lily won't be in a class with other dogs so will be under less pressure and the behaviourist should come up with some strategies you can use to help Lily stay calm.

Sorry for the length of the post but I wanted to explain what helps Louis and that I know how difficult, frustrating and heartbreaking it is to own a reactive dog 

 

[ziggy9269]

Thanks guys.

I really appreciate all of your advice and it is comforting that by hearing other peoples stories, I am not alone... I was chatting to a lady on the beach this morning, and she has said exactly the same..... using calming meds and just accepting that it is the way she is... I knew I was not going to get her completely over her experience.

She is ok, when out on the beach, with her tennis ball (which she carries constantly  ) and other dogs are a certain distance away, as soon as any dog starts to run over, that’s when the problems start... and it a quick recall or “stay” until I clip her back onto her lead.

I feel frustrated that because of itdiots who allow their dogs to do this, cause problems in the long run for sensible dog owners, and to be honest, this guy will have completely forgotten about it.  He couldn’t have cared less.

I have been chatting a an older dog owner, who has a beautiful black and tan cocker Jessie, and lately (last 2 days) Lily will accept to sniff her and have a little wag of the tail, then the constant barking starts...Jessie, just stands there staring at Lily as if to say “Oh shut up, you are giving me a headache” 

It’s so comforting to know I am not alone, and that there are STILL decent dogs owners out there. I have owned dogs all of my life and I have seen a MASSIVE change in how owners control their dogs, behave, etc.

Thank you all so much again, I appreciate your time in replying and typing 

I’ll see if any other COL who live in my area would maybe willing to do a meet up and perhaps slowly and slightly change her attitude to other dogs...

I know it sounds pathetic, but I still say “If only I hadn’t taken her there that day”.... I feel so bad still about it and every time I pass the place I do feel myself getting upset.... I do agree, it has completely traumatised me, and maybe I need advice too, as I do start to tense and this of course will be picked up by Lily.

Being a doggie owner is a challenge isn’t it??? 

Thanks again - such lovely helpful COL    Hugs back to you all

[Pop-Star]

I’ll see if any other COL who live in my area would maybe willing to do a meet up and perhaps slowly and slightly change her attitude to other dogs...

There are lots of lovely COLers in the North East and there is a meet up planned for this Sunday   
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=95312.75

[ziggy9269]

Ahhhh Pop-Star... thank you so much for that..... so, so kind but I live in South Shields, so Middlesborough is a little too far. However, I did my Riding Instructor training in Eston, 20 odd years ago, and it’s a lovely place. 

I think there are other members close to my neck of the woods, but thanks again.

Saying that.... we still pop down to Teeside and have spent a day at Roseberry Topping - so lovely 

I definitely think, getting to know other spaniels, even if for a little gentle walk on the lead will help Lily

[elaine.e]

I've done a couple of COL meet ups with Louis and, if it's any help to you Ziggy9269, this is how I've "managed" them. First, I've checked on COL to see how many dogs are going and if I think any of them might be reactive (that's not a reflection on them or their owners, but me being realistic about what I can expect of Louis). If there will be any dogs going that I'm sure Louis won't cope with, or if there are any puppies, I just don't go! The puppy thing is that Louis bullies them by growling and knocking over and I don't want that to happen of course.

If I think it's going to be a meet up that Louis can cope with I arrive early and I don't wait at the meet up point because I know that Louis on lead and being close to a bunch of excited Cockers will just make him really anxious, he won't be able to maintain self control and our walk will have failed before it's begun. So I walk on a little way and mooch around with him, maybe a bit of ball throwing, but mainly letting him relax off lead. When the walk starts off I let people and dogs start to catch up with us and just blend in as best we can. Once we're all on the move Louis is much more likely to cope than when people and dogs are standing around.

Since the attack I've only taken Louis to a couple of meet ups and those have only been with about 4 dogs, all of which I know will pretty much ignore Louis. I still won't chance him with a bigger group because I know he's not ready.

[Bluebell]

Some dog schools do 'reactive dog' sessions for dogs and owners just like you.  Is there a good dog school near you who could help, or maybe one that someone on here could recommend  Maybe Jessies owner would do a few quiet walks with you? She sounds perfect, just the right sort of dog to help Lily rebuild her confidence

I would happily walk with you and my Vizsla ( I'm Ninasmum's friend ) , it's a shame you are so far away, I am in Hampshire  

[Pearly]

Pearl and I go to as many meets as we can -tbh I organise some now for that very reason!  Not only is it a very enjoyable experience for me but Pearl is put in the position that she is learning to be more relaxed/less stressed with other dogs.

The first walk at Cannock - way back in March - was a worry and she constantly dragged at the bottom of my jeans [and will occasionally nip] it's her way of telling me its getting too much for her.  We either hang back or use some form of distraction:  if I see it happening then I can turn her return into a recall [think that makes sense??] and reward her for it.  Or depending on her body language, which I'm starting to be able to read she's either reassured that all is ok, given an instruction such as sit - followed by the watch me command [which is just fantastic for focussing her back onto me] or possibly told off if there was no trigger and she's just doing it for attention.....which seems to be the latest developmet - as, of course, there's no such thing as bad attention from a doggie point of view

The behaviourist also suggested rewarding Pearl with food - something I'd never done before - as she comes back, to crumble some treat/sausage into bits and scatter on the ground.  Not only does it distract Pearl from the attempted "trouser grabbing" but gives off a signal to other dogs that she's happy and relaxed - tail wagging, sniffing the ground!  It does seem to help with her confidence.

I should say a very big thank you to Patp, SarahR and especially Sarah/G - they have been so patient with us both - we walk together most weeks and they just accept Pearls odd behaviour when it occurs - Thank you Ladies [and Rob of course ]

I agree with Bluebell about attending a 1-2-1 session.  The behaviourist will try to replicate the situation for Pearl, at our next visit, so she can give more advice and techniques - it really is as much me learning how to deal with the situation and pre-empt it occuring as much as it is Pearl's behaviour changing.

Will watch this post with interest - thank you for starting it off x

[lottiescat]

Hi, just wondered if you had tried her reaction with a puppy? May be she might come to cope with a pup that grew up with her? Just a thought...... Good luck

[Patp]

I should say a very big thank you to Patp, SarahR and especially Sarah/G - they have been so patient with us both - we walk together most weeks and they just accept Pearls odd behaviour when it occurs - Thank you Ladies [and Rob of course ]

Glad to be of help, but I thought it was our company and the drinking and eating you came for

Px

[Lovely]

Hi sorry to hear about the attack and it's effects on you both. Up until having my child four years ago i worked in a mental health team and we worked with people with extreme phobias and ptsd. I guess your dog has a kind of dog version of this. I don't know if this is helpful or doable but with people we used graded exposure. This involved tiny tiny steps, putting the person in the specific situation that made them uncomfortable for maybe only a few minutes then slowly building the time up. We only increased the  time of exposure once the person could cope with the present level if that makes sense? It definitely worked with people but i guess would be much harder with a dog and sadly your little one will probably always have some level of fear. Good luck to you both, she sounds like a lovely dog who's been dealt a real blow to her confidence x

[ziggy9269]

Hello again - thanks for your lovely advice. 

lottiescat - she is exactly the same with puppies. Anything which moves fast and she is worse. A little pup ran across to us a few months ago, and she reacted exactly the same way - it not the size as such. This is what happened when she was attacked.

The Akita just shot across the hill towards us and was on top of Lily in seconds. It seemed to have appeared from nowhere. And it flipped her onto her back and grabbed her under belly, which as also resulted in her not liking to be groomed underneath - we really have to take time with when grooming under her tum. The attack was totally out of the blue - so it’s the speed, which I think is the problem. After the dog attacked the owner was casually walking over to us, in no great hurry and I am shouting for him to please help..... he started shouting in my face and using lots of bad language. His dog was not on the lead, Lily was as she was only 5 months old and her recall was still developing. It was awful. Seeing the bloody and hearing her screaming - I will never ever forget it.

A little Bichon came to say “Good morning” yesterday at the beach and off she went - Barking and Snarling. I just seem to spend my time out apologising.

Lily is never let off her lead unless the ‘coast is clear’ so-to-speak  Carrying her tennis ball is her security I think as she is a little calmer when she has that, so it have a good supply of those in my ever growing coat pocket.

We did try food to try and see if it helped which it did but I believe her fear is so strong, it only helps for a little while and then there is no effect. She is back to her Woofy self. I do agree that COL meet-up could help - but as you said elaine.e I would have to take things slowly and obvious more ‘excited pooches’ may stress her out more. 

It is so hard, and is a constant patrol of who is about, keeping a check to make sure the are no dogs too close.

I really want to help her, and I have scanned my area for doggie behaviourists, and I don’t care how much it costs. Bluebell, I am going to ask Jessie's ‘Dad’ if we can have a little walk along in the mornings together, as Jessie is older and himself, so I guess the slower and calmer the better. Lovely, I agree, taking little steps will help, and I am more than willing to do that. If anyone from my area does happen to read this post, and would be willing to maybe let us join them for a meet, even for 5-10 minutes, I am sure it will help Lily and me - I think starting this post has counselled me in a way