Undershot Jaw's - again

[MollieMoo]

After reading the other thread that has just been closed, I would like to ask a question about undershot jaws.

I bought my bitch Daisy from a lady who had only bred two litters, Daisy coming from the second.  The father is a well know boy from the midlands area and the mother is from a more commercial kennel in Wales, a name I had heard of.

I chose Daisy at 3 weeks old, then went to pick her up at 8 weeks.  I asked the breeder not to vaccinate Daisy, but the puppies came 'vet checked'.  When I took Daisy to my vet, they informed me that she had an undershot jaw.  I was rather upset as I had previously cancelled a puppy from a breeder which I found out to be 'commercial' and tried to make sure I found a litter with kennel names I had heard of, hoping to have a well bred dog.

I rang the breeder as soon as I got home to tell her that Daisy had an undershot jaw.  The breeder was going to Austrailia for 3 weeks so she didn't seem too bothered. Also the vet told me that the deformity may correct itself within 12 months, I did not contact the breeder again.  As Daisy got to 10 months it was obvious that her jaw wasn't going to change, so I wrote a letter to the breeder explaining that I was very dissapointed with her attitude that she didn't follow up the welfare of Daisy, and that I had paid for a puppy that was show and breeding standard (although I had no intention of showing or breeding) (other puppies went to people who were intending to show them), and at no point was I offered a discount.  The following day I received a 'phone call from her husband (who was very defensive) who asked what I wanted.  I told them 'nothing' but I wanted to make them aware of their responsibilities of breeding dogs, that their vet should have spotted the undershot jaw, and that I was dissapointed. 

So to my question - would you ever be able to know if this has come from the mother or fathers side?  should the owner of the stud dog be told about this deformity? (as I doubt the breeder would alert them to this)

[Jane S]

Sorry to hear your breeder has not been supportive although I'm hoping she did not sell you your pup as being show/breeding standard as that's something no breeder can or should ever promise when selling a young puppy

I'm afraid it is impossible to say whether both parents or just one parent is responsible for passing on the undershot bite in this case or any other. It's known that bad mouths are hereditary but the exact mode of inheritance is not known. However, in most cases of problems which pass down generations, both parents carry the faulty gene or genes - conditions where only one parent is responsible are not that common.

[dorrit]

Like you, I have just been told by my vet that Nell has an under shot jaw. While this doesn't bother me too much - I hadn't intended to breed from her, or show her, I was told that she was from excently stock and came from show champion lines - and even though the vet said it isn't likely to trouble her too much - I am not entirely happy with the breeder and the ethics.

Having owned cockers for years, purely as members of the family, and having taken all the excellent advice from COL, I made sure I did all the research needed and checked out the breeder's credentials, to ensure that everything was above and beyond reproach. I even contacted and spoke to some members of COL, who had got puppies from the breeder.

The thing that annoys me is that I wasn't told about the undershot jaw by the breeder - who I would assume would have known about this, what with being a experienced breeder and all the knowledge gained from the years of showing and breeding. If they didn't spot it surely their vets would have, when she had her inital check, which I was informed was the case.

further to this, I paid a lot of money - £600, even though I had found other breeders selling cockers a lot cheaper, I wanted to avoid the horrors that I had read about on COL. Basically, This has left a bad taste in my mouth, especially, when I informed the breeder of Nell's undershot jaw, all they said was, bring her back and we'll refund you your money, or you can choose another puppy. Nell is not a pair of shoes!

I know I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill, and in all honesty, I couldn't be happier with Little Nell, and wouldn't change her for the world, but it really is a matter of principal. i really feel let down by the breeder and that I should have been told...Simple as that. Especially, after they had sold her on all the good points, rather than simply being honest. IK still would have taken her home!

[Cazzie]

After buying a puppy with an undershot jaw myself and not checking before hand it is something that I now always look at first in a puppy. I was lucky that it did correct its self but its something that people should be aware of when choosing a puppy 

[Jane S]

Undershot bites are not something that only occur in "bad" breeding - many a good breeder will have seen this fault occasionally in their own litters. No breeder can ever guarantee that their puppies will have correct bites in later life as mouths frequently change as puppies' jaws grow (as Kelly mentioned on Dorrit's thread on the Health board). It's possible Nell's bite was ok at 8 weeks old but there is no way of knowing this now. This is why it's always a good idea to check things like this before buying a puppy or take the pup to your own vet for an examination as soon as possible after purchase, as many breeders recommend in their contracts.

[White Bryony]

We got Maddie when she was 8 months and she has got a very pronounced undershot jaw.  However as long as it doesn't cause her any health problems thats fine. 

But can I ask - it says on her Breeder Registration Certificate under Endorsements - 'R - Progeny Not Eligible for Registration' and we were told that it was because of her undershot jaw. Is that likely to be correct

Because reading this thread it sounds like it would have been possible for her to grow out of it? 

[Jane S]

But can I ask - it says on her Breeder Registration Certificate under Endorsements - 'R - Progeny Not Eligible for Registration' and we were told that it was because of her undershot jaw. Is that likely to be correct

Yes the breeder did the responsible thing and placed the endorsement on her pedigree to show she shouldn't be bred from. I doubt very much whether her bite will change now - undershot bites rarely change at this age (Cazzie's experience is the exception not the norm, sadly)

[spanielcrazy]

i really feel let down by the breeder and that I should have been told...Simple as that. Especially, after they had sold her on all the good points, rather than simply being honest. IK still would have taken her home!

Please don't blame the breeder.  If you have a look at the other thread you will see that this is something that can happen to any breeder, and I'd wager most of the top breeders have produced some bad bites unwittingly.

It is very likely that your pup had a perfect bite at the time you bought it. It often doesn't show up till after teething or after a big growth spurt. Joy had a perfect bite as a baby puppy but by the time she was 6 months old she had a perfect scissor bite, only in the wrong direction  Sometimes is is a jaw misalignment and sometimes the jaws are fine but the teeth are misaligned. Occasionally  a puppy will go in and out of being undershot or overshot while they go through growing phases and end up with a perfect bite (and their owners end up nervous wrecks!  ) The upper and lower jaws don't grow at the same rate.

Also please don't misunderstand the breeder. Absolutely Nell is not a pair of shoes, but your breeder did the very right thing by offering you your money back or another pup. This is a breeder who stands behind their pups and wants to ensure that you are satisfied and able to live with your pup, and are happy with her.

I bought Joy as a show prospect at 8 weeks old, but I've been in this long enough to know that at that age there are no guarantees whatsoever at that age, even if the dog is descended from "cocker royalty". Had I been so inclined, the breeder would have given me first pick of another puppy but of course by the time she was 6 months she had my heart wrapped around her little paws.  So here she is, spayed, happy and never set foot in a show ring. (Too bad too, everything else about her is show quality  )

As far as pet puppies are concerned, unless it is a severe jaw over or under bite that makes eating normally difficult, it is really just a cosmetic issue that precludes showing and breeding, but in no way affects the quality of the dogs life or her ability to love and be loved.

[magicflower]

Ruby has had problems with her mouth/teeth/jaw due to misalignment. 

In the end, she had to have one of her lower canine teeth cut down under GA to stop it growing into the roof of her mouth. She had to have this performed twice as she was so young when it was originally done and it continued to grow.

This wasn't picked up by the breeder, me or at two vet checks. Her breeder had her checked and vaccinated as we didn't pick her up until she was 10 weeks old. We also had her checked by our vet when she went for her 2nd vaccination.

We weren't really planning on showing Ruby but it would have been nice to have the option. But that's life and as there are no garruntees when it comes to pups. 

We wouldn't be without her now, wonky jaw and all!

[Hannah77]

Our. 6 month old pup has only just in the last 2 weeks gone undershot... I'm devastated as we did buy her to show   

Nice to read all of these comments, hoping it will correct itself in time as we love her to bits