CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: alizda on October 03, 2006, 10:42:03 AM
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My husband and I were discussing the other day about whether or not to have a litter from Lily.
There are so many conflicting stories you hear - "its best to have a litter before being spayed" "it doesn't really matter" etc etc
Anyway, we are still undecided what to do, afterall Lily is only 3 months old but the main query is what breed to put her with if we decide this is the road to take.
She's a sprocker - do we put her with another sprocker, a springer, a cocker????
Some helpful advice would be appreciated
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Hi
Brace yourself as this topic always raises strong views on COL!
I don't have a girl, so this will never be an issue for me, but generally you'll find on here that people are strongly opposed to the kind of "it would be nice to breed from her" approach. I don't mean that to sound as if you're considering doing it in a slapdash, "who cares?" kind of way as the posters who raise this always think that they have their girl's best interests at heart.
However, the responses really concentrate on:
1. your girl's well-being - having a litter is incredibly hard work for you and your girl, is a big risk to her health and well-being and lots of litters experience problems. For instance, at the birth, are you able to give 24 hour care for up to two weeks immediately before and after the birth to ensure the health and well-being of the litter? Just "leaving her to it" isn't a responsible option.
2. the litter's well-being. There are thousands of unwanted dogs in the country, so many posters will challenge you "why create more?". On-going, a responsible breeder has to commit to each of the dogs in the litter for life - i.e. if the new owner's circumstances change, six weeks, six months or six years down the line, you should be prepared to take the dog back until you can rehome it safely and responsibly, or keep it for life if that's not possible. This isn't a legal requirement but a moral one. If you don't feel you can make that commitment, don't have the litter is the general view. An additional issue is whether or not your girl is healthy enough to breed from. Has she been Optigen tested to show that she doesn't carry the eye-defect gene which triggers PRA? Has she been regularly hip scored? I don't know if there are specific Springer health issues which bitches should be tested for in addition to these two. If she doesn't get the all clear on the tests, you shouldn't be breeding puppies which carry potential problems (the tests don't guarantee e.g. healthy hips, but they increase the likelihood of a good scoring set of parents passing on the healthiest puppies possible). If you can't afford,or can't be bothered, to do all the tests, again - you shouldn't be breeding from her. You'd also need to find a mate who had had all of these tests and had come back clear (Optigen/PRA) and scored well on hip scoring.
3. why you want to breed from her. The experienced breeders on here do so in order to improve the breed - they have a good line, a particularly healthy dog, and often show their dogs too - not because they think that their girls have some sort of unfulfilled maternal instinct that a litter would solve - this just isn't the case. A lot of the "one off" breeders think that their dog will miss out on something by not having a litter - this just isn't the case either. I hesitate to say this but the "improving the breed" issue doesn't apply where you've got a springer-cocker cross already. If you want to breed from her because she's so lovely and a joy to have around, consider getting a sibling from the same parents as your new puppy.
The overall advice on here is not to breed in these kinds of circumstances - there are responsible "hobby breeders" on here who can give you advice, but you need to be sure that you're able and willing to learn more and to commit fully to the testing, the litter for life and your girl.
Denise
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Please do not breed just because you think it would do the bitch good ,personally i do not think that this is the case. Everythink has been said above that needs to be said, please read puppy poem.
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Wow. I have rarely seen such a concise and eloquent response to this issue as the one from Denise.
I agree totally with all she has said, and don't think anything can be added.
Well done Denise!
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Why do you want to bred your bitch?
There are so many questions to ask your self like:
* Am i Knowledgeable enough to advice new owners about caring for the puppies including rearing diet,training and health problems?
*Do i know enough to help the bitch during the whelping if necessary?
*Do i have sufficient knowledge to rear the litter correctly including worming ect
*Would i beable to find good homes for all the puppies?
*Could you take back or re-home any puppies if it becomes necessary?
Have you had you bitches eye's tested?
There lots to think about and its not easy.
Our bitch never had any milk we had to hand rear them every 2hrs day and night god it was hard work
Good luck in what you decide to do
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I suggest not breeding from any crossbreed which is what your pup is --- thousands are put to sleep every year just because there are too many.
'A bitch must have one litter before they're spayed' is a myth pure and simple.
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Ditto to what Denise and Penny have said - can't really add much more !!
except....
Working in rescue as i do i have no wish to see any of your girls' offspring coming into the care of rescues - as they may very well do.
Enjoy your pup for who she is not what she can produce!!
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A bitch doesn't need to have a litter before beeing spayed.
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I suggest not breeding from any crossbreed which is what your pup is --- thousands are put to sleep every year just because there are too many.
'A bitch must have one litter before they're spayed' is a myth pure and simple.
A bitch should have a season before she is spayed not a litter . IMHO
Other questions to ask your self are - Once the litter are born, are you up to dealing with still births?
Are you up to a pup dying after nearly a week etc? (As the mother has laid on it by mistake) Believe me these things do happen and all need to be taken in to consideration.
I have a female cocker who is 7 months old and I'm on season watch, believe it or not it can't arrive quick enough as once it is over I can book her in the vets to be done ;)
Ever feel as though you've opened a can of worms? Hope you make your decision based on a lot of information, personally I would get the first season out the way then get her spayed, at least then there will be no mishap litters ;)
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I suggest not breeding from any crossbreed which is what your pup is --- thousands are put to sleep every year just because there are too many.
'A bitch must have one litter before they're spayed' is a myth pure and simple.
A bitch should have a season before she is spayed not a litter . IMHO
it is not necessary to allow them to have a season first - many pups that come into rescue are spayed before going onto their forever homes with no detriment to their health or wellbeing
i so wish i had had Saffie done rather than waiting and then her having phantoms and so prolonging the wait - she has changed ( not for the better i may add ) because of it - had she been done before, she had late seasons too, she would no doubt have been the lovely little girl i had before !!
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Please can we keep this thread on topic - the question of when is best to spay a bitch would be better discussed on another board as that's a whole different can of worms ;) Thanks :blink:
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wow three months and you're thinking about possibly breeding from her.i have to say it was the opposite for me,ellie was 8 weeks and i was planning the best time to spey her :005:
i will not get into this debate.they usually end up in an arguementyou will at the end of the day do whatever you want ;)
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I can't add anything to Denise's thread as it expressed my thoughts exactly :-\
It is impossible to know whether a puppy of three months old will have a suitable temperment to consider breeding from her; I don't think many responsible breeders would be considering prospective sires for such a young bitch ;)
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I can't add anything to Denise's thread as it expressed my thoughts exactly :-\
It is impossible to know whether a puppy of three months old will have a suitable temperment to consider breeding from her; I don't think many responsible breeders would be considering prospective sires for such a young bitch ;)
Not to mention the fact that she is a sprocker and no matter what kind of dog you put her to you would be breeding mongrels at the end of the day :-\ Sorry if that sounds harsh but as Daunting says, take a look on dog pages to see how many thousands of crossbred and purebred dogs there are out there needing homes, it's heartbreaking :'(
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Think I opened a right old can of worms there didn't i
:'(
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[quoteThink I opened a right old can of worms there didn't i
][/quote]
I dont think anyone is getting at you alizda, its just honest advice.
I have a sproker shes lovely and shes spayed.
I love her too much to put her through a potentially life threatening experience . Instead I got Liath her younger half sister on the cocker side ( same mam) when pepper was about 18 months and they are best of pals.
I think if you want another dog later on my advice would be to go back to your pups breeder and see if you can buy a sibling or other relative..
Or if you have your heart set on a cross breed try the rescue centres.. they seem to have them in abundance.
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. . . . . .i know i,m probably adding fuel to the fire . . . . .but whats the advantage of a "sprocker" . . . labradoodle owners are looking for lab temperaments and poodle coats (not always achieved!) so whats the advantage of a sprocker??
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In peppers case she was an unplanned pregnacy between working spaniels.
way back in yesteryear when working cockers were nearly extinct, working springers were crossed with show cockers, and show cockers were crossed with working cockers to add to the numbers and to get the working gene going again. that was a long time ago and it would be very wrong to do that nowadays.
If a sprocker is an exceptional working dog a gamekeeper may choose to breed of her / him, Im not saying its right or wrong but it is done now and again.