CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: alanthedog on July 05, 2011, 02:57:51 PM
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I could really do with sound advice from the people in the know!
After getting Alan 2 years ago, and Paige 1 year ago, I have thoroughly enjoyed being a cocker mum (although I have had my ups and downs with training!)
I have started showing, and we are doing really well, and Alan, who is a working cocker, has started agility.
I love being with my dogs and I am debating getting another in the future when Paige is a little older.
Anyway, I would love at some stage to become a breeder if I get a successful show bitch, but I have noticed there is quite alot of conflicting advice on here. I know it is something you need to go into with your eyes wide open, for the right reasons, not to make money, etc, etc, but I have also noticed that there are some successful breeders on here that have been doing it for many years, some for over 20. I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?
Would love to hear your advice. I don't work so have all the time in the world to devote to my dogs but have had so many people tell me different things about breeding so would love to hear from experienced breeders that know what they are talking about.
Many thanks
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We are in the same position so cant give much advice. Hoping to have our first litter this year. Made sure our bitch has been tested for any health problems and picked a stud dog who is also healthy. Just common sense to make sure you have the most healthiest pups as possible. Have prepared myself that she might not get pregnant or she could have still born pups. With the excitement of breeding you also have to deal with disappointment.
Good Luck in the future ;)
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I hope that your girls have been DNA tested for PRA and FN and the stud dogs the same? This is the first thing that should be done before you even think about breeding.
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I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?
We got into showing first and only got into breeding after we'd got the bug and had got passionate about Cockers, reading up and learning as much as possible about the breed, studying pedigrees, buying every book (old and new) we could find, talking Cockers with other more experienced breeders etc etc. When we first started breeding, we had lots of help and guidance from other breeders - I wouldn't have wanted to do it without any "mentors" (one in particular stopped us making what could have been a catastrophic mistake in stud dog selection with our first litter).
We're still breeding occasionally and there are things I love about breeding and things I absolutely hate sometimes.The worst things are dealing with the stress and anxiety when a bitch is about to whelp (once you have experienced disastrous pregnancies and whelpings as most breeders will do at some stage, you are always worried it will happen again) and then for the first few weeks of a litter's life (newborn pups do not always survive for one reason or another - one of the reasons I cringe at breeders allowing people to visit new born litters and select their pups at a few days old). Then there's dealing with potential buyers who tell you lies or turn out not to be nice people after all (this happens more often than you might think) and so on...
The best bit of breeding is when the puppies are a bit older and you can relax a bit more and start to enjoy watching their development and maybe spot that special puppy you're looking to keep for yourself. Then there's meeting really lovely puppy buyers who you know will be just perfect owners for your pups (some of them will become good friends over the years) but it is not always easy to find these kind of homes and you have to be prepared to keep puppies as long as it takes to find them (you can't assume all pups will have found their new homes by 8 weeks old, not if you care where they go anyway) You also have to be prepared to take back any puppy you have bred (whatever the age) as even the best homes can suffer difficulties (divorce, serious illness etc) that mean they can't keep their dog - we once had to take back one of "our" dogs the day before we moved house but we would not have dreamed of saying no as that's part and parcel of being a responsible breeder. If you can't do this, then don't breed - the rescue centres are already overflowing with dogs whose breeders' interest in them ended once they were off their hands.
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I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?
We got into showing first and only got into breeding after we'd got the bug and had got passionate about Cockers, reading up and learning as much as possible about the breed, studying pedigrees, buying every book (old and new) we could find, talking Cockers with other more experienced breeders etc etc. When we first started breeding, we had lots of help and guidance from other breeders - I wouldn't have wanted to do it without any "mentors" (one in particular stopped us making what could have been a catastrophic mistake in stud dog selection with our first litter).
We're still breeding occasionally and there are things I love about breeding and things I absolutely hate sometimes.The worst things are dealing with the stress and anxiety when a bitch is about to whelp (once you have experienced disastrous pregnancies and whelpings as most breeders will do at some stage, you are always worried it will happen again) and then for the first few weeks of a litter's life (newborn pups do not always survive for one reason or another - one of the reasons I cringe at breeders allowing people to visit new born litters and select their pups at a few days old). Then there's dealing with potential buyers who tell you lies or turn out not to be nice people after all (this happens more often than you might think) and so on...
The best bit of breeding is when the puppies are a bit older and you can relax a bit more and start to enjoy watching their development and maybe spot that special puppy you're looking to keep for yourself. Then there's meeting really lovely puppy buyers who you know will be just perfect owners for your pups (some of them will become good friends over the years) but it is not always easy to find these kind of homes and you have to be prepared to keep puppies as long as it takes to find them (you can't assume all pups will have found their new homes by 8 weeks old, not if you care where they go anyway) You also have to be prepared to take back any puppy you have bred (whatever the age) as even the best homes can suffer difficulties (divorce, serious illness etc) that mean they can't keep their dog - we once had to take back one of "our" dogs the day before we moved house but we would not have dreamed of saying no as that's part and parcel of being a responsible breeder. If you can't do this, then don't breed - the rescue centres are already overflowing with dogs whose breeders' interest in them ended once they were off their hands.
Couldn't have put it better myself, totally agree
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I know it's not an exact science but it does help and we're seeing so many more cockers with HD nowadays - please please add Hip Scoring to your health checks for dam and sire :-\
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Totally agree with Jane, I was into golden retrievers for ten years before I even considered breeding and had been to quite a few breed seminars on health, breeding, showing, anything to do with the breed, I went on the course.
Breeding is not for the faint hearted. Costs for hip x-rays, annual eye tests, ovulating tests, certificate to say my bitch had no infections after costly blood tests. My first litter, Boxing Day in the early hours of the morning - result, out of hours cost, bank holiday costs, caesarian costs, do not go into it expecting to make money. These costs I was happy to cover as you have to understand the health of mum and babies is more paramount than anything else.
Would I do it again? Well this time around I have a boy.
PS Yes I would it is only my OH stopping me and the fact of my age and not sure I would still be able to accept responsibillity for returning puppies should the need arise - yes you have to be prepared that if a home doesn't turn out to be the right one you will take puppy back for rehoming.
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I know it's not an exact science but it does help and we're seeing so many more cockers with HD nowadays - please please add Hip Scoring to your health checks for dam and sire :-\
I am just curious to ask you Helen or anyone else for that matter? If a dog has been hipscored what score do you think it should NOT be bred from? The breed average is 14 I believe (well last time I checked). What score above the breed average would be in the realms of acceptability for breeding and ofcourse reducing the threat of HD....
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There's plenty of good breeding stock out there with a score 14 and under and, unless there is an exceptional reason to do so, I don't see why dogs with higher scores need to be bred from. It would do the breed a lot of good if people were more selective about breeding.
What do you think?
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I know it's not an exact science but it does help and we're seeing so many more cockers with HD nowadays - please please add Hip Scoring to your health checks for dam and sire :-\
I am just curious to ask you Helen or anyone else for that matter? If a dog has been hipscored what score do you think it should NOT be bred from? The breed average is 14 I believe (well last time I checked). What score above the breed average would be in the realms of acceptability for breeding and ofcourse reducing the threat of HD....
The recommendation is to only use dogs with a score "well below" the breed average ;)
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There's plenty of good breeding stock out there with a score 14 and under and, unless there is an exceptional reason to do so, I don't see why dogs with higher scores need to be bred from. It would do the breed a lot of good if people were more selective about breeding.
What do you think?
Hmmm interesting Comment Helen ..... I had heard of a dog with a high score above 20 recently used for stud and I did wonder at the time WHY?? but having heard more about the dog and his owner I can only assume he must be an exceptional dog .... So I am of the opinion breeding is not black and white and alot to do with simple grey common sence, I don't think I agree with you on the 'there is plenty of breeding stock with scores below the breed average' as there really isnt that many that have been scored to maintain the breed, As you know yourself many trialers find it hard to eye test never mind anything else and even in the show world its not the golden rule that all show dogs need to be health tested to be bred from. My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
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When it boils down to it John with working cockers there are very few breeders I would consider purchasing from. I know where my next pup is coming from (when and if) and I have no doubt about my choice and yes, all health tested ;)
No breeding is not an exact science - I similarly know of a show cocker sire who is a PRA carrier but I would definitely buy a pup from his lines IF the dam was clear.
Health is part of an all round package - a big part needless to say but there is a lot more to breeding than a health test - to be perfectly honest it would be doubtful whether I would buy a pup from a lot of the health tested working cockers on the working cocker health testing board as i simply don't like their lines.
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My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
I don't know of any PRA affected Show Champion stud dogs currently being offered at stud :-\ But even if there is, why would you be shot at dawn for mentioning it :huh: There are of course Carriers still being bred from (dogs and bitches) and there is certainly nothing wrong with that as long as they are only bred to tested Clear mates and breeders are sensible about using endorsements etc on the resulting puppies (so they're not bred from without being tested). The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!) I'm not as convinced about breeding from Affecteds but again such dogs cannot produce affected puppies as long as they are only bred to tested Clear mates (although it would have to be an absolutely out of this world dog to make we want to use an Affected stud and such dogs are very, very rare)
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I am very pleased to hear your considering another pup there Helen ;) Good luck and lets hope your second dog is just as nice as Jarvis .. I am not aware of the lines on the WC pro health Kennels as I didnt realise they published the lines their dogs came from :huh: but I can only guess many of the members who advertise and choose not to advertise on that health society site probably have dogs from a wide range of different lines ;) But I do agree with you on the importance of good sound lines ....
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I dont think I have said anything to disagree with you Jane :huh:, and as far as the comment about being shot at Dawn, as public forums go you will get a wide spectrum of replies and sometimes to either extreem I guess ;) .... Sorry I may have been misunderstood but while I am aware of the affected dog I dont know if he is still being used for stud but I dont think I actually said he was being used I simply referred to myself having no problem if he was, I suppose if a dam owner admired him enough to use him as you say he would have to be a fantastic dog, he may be in the eye of the beholder ph34r .... as long as an affected dog is ONLY put to a clear was something else I also said so maybe we are in agreement :huh: ....
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My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)
Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.
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eory
My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)
Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.
Type A is a wonderful; thought but only text book theoryMy Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)
Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.
Lovely idea and typical of text book theory which differs from practice, only problem is not enough tested dogs and shrinking gene pool, you will need B dogs for a long time to maintain 'COI' I think, it has been mentioned on here before, like I said before breeding is not black and white and not just about clear dogs, unfortunately the best dogs in the breed are sometimes genetically faulted! 'sorry but cant think of a better word'. I don't think perfect Eugenics will ever be achieved or should be in the grand scheme.
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I dont think I have said anything to disagree with you Jane :huh:, and as far as the comment about being shot at Dawn, as public forums go you will get a wide spectrum of replies and sometimes to either extreem I guess ;) .... Sorry I may have been misunderstood but while I am aware of the affected dog I dont know if he is still being used for stud but I dont think I actually said he was being used I simply referred to myself having no problem if he was, I suppose if a dam owner admired him enough to use him as you say he would have to be a fantastic dog, he may be in the eye of the beholder ph34r .... as long as an affected dog is ONLY put to a clear was something else I also said so maybe we are in agreement :huh: ....
It was the way you worded your post that implied the dog was still being used - you said "as long as he was and is only put to clear girls" so that's why I thought you meant he was currently at stud because you said "is". I wasn't disagreeing with you anyway - just responding to your belief you would be "shot at dawn" for mentioning it as if we can't discuss this kind of thing on COL when we've had numerous perfectly reasonable discussions on this subject and so far nobody's been marched off to a firing squad :005:
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I am very pleased to hear your considering another pup there Helen ;) Good luck and lets hope your second dog is just as nice as Jarvis .. I am not aware of the lines on the WC pro health Kennels as I didnt realise they published the lines their dogs came from :huh: but I can only guess many of the members who advertise and choose not to advertise on that health society site probably have dogs from a wide range of different lines ;) But I do agree with you on the importance of good sound lines ....
I'm always considering John :lol2: I just need the right time and to wear the OH down ph34r
They don't publish the lines, I do my own research as I'm sure you do - it becomes very clear what you like and dislike after a while doesn't it ;)
Jane - I worded my comment about the PRA stud wrongly - no longer at stud ;)
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The power of the word Jane :005:
And I couldnt agree with you more Helen on research ..... very important and always interesting, you never know what you may discover ;)
Anyway Apologies to the OP as I have taken the original question of track a wee bit ph34r
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eoryMy Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)
Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.
Type A is a wonderful; thought but only text book theoryMy Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.
The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)
Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.
Lovely idea and typical of text book theory which differs from practice, only problem is not enough tested dogs and shrinking gene pool, you will need B dogs for a long time to maintain 'COI' I think, it has been mentioned on here before, like I said before breeding is not black and white and not just about clear dogs, unfortunately the best dogs in the breed are sometimes genetically faulted! 'sorry but cant think of a better word'. I don't think perfect Eugenics will ever be achieved or should be in the grand scheme.
John, I'm of track hear, apologies. Raven looks like a show type on the small picture. Is that right? Have you any more pics of him out picking up game? Brill pic. If he is show type would it be possible to know his lines?
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No Raven is FULL working cocker Loudon (Sorry dont know your name), I bred him, his working lines beyond that are not common his mother Willow is out of the Lambton Estate in county Durham and her pedigree is either mostly hard working dogs from the gamekeeper there and also goes back to old Scottish working lines. I think there are several pics of him on Working cockers pics on this site. Or click onto my website link on my profile. I also own Ravens dad who is from the what many would call the usual suspects in working lines he goes back through danderw druid etc etc etc .... nothing special as far as pedigrees go but still very nice and a very special dog to me ;) And cracking agility competitor hopefully not far off competing in Championship classes :shades: .
There are several show cocker owners who do work there dogs on here, if that what interests you. My Show cockers unfortunatley dont work although they do manage to keep up with the workers ;) If you wanna know anymore please feel free to PM me ;)
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If you are thinking of breeding first be aware its not cheep and may cost you a lot of money if things go wrong..
Ensure the personality of the dog and bitch and ensure the dog is PRA and FN clear, if not don't use him, a quality stud dog will cost you anything from £400 to use.
Go back to the breeder you got your dog from if you are happy, they should give you advice.
Speak to your vet again they will help and buy a book we used 'the book of the bitch' we found it very good for advice.
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I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?
We're still breeding occasionally and there are things I love about breeding and things I absolutely hate sometimes.The worst things are dealing with the stress and anxiety when a bitch is about to whelp (once you have experienced disastrous pregnancies and whelpings as most breeders will do at some stage, you are always worried it will happen again) and then for the first few weeks of a litter's life (newborn pups do not always survive for one reason or another - one of the reasons I cringe at breeders allowing people to visit new born litters and select their pups at a few days old). Then there's dealing with potential buyers who tell you lies or turn out not to be nice people after all (this happens more often than you might think) and so on...
Agree completely with this line, after experiencing it end of last year!! >:D
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I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?
We're still breeding occasionally and there are things I love about breeding and things I absolutely hate sometimes.The worst things are dealing with the stress and anxiety when a bitch is about to whelp (once you have experienced disastrous pregnancies and whelpings as most breeders will do at some stage, you are always worried it will happen again) and then for the first few weeks of a litter's life (newborn pups do not always survive for one reason or another - one of the reasons I cringe at breeders allowing people to visit new born litters and select their pups at a few days old). Then there's dealing with potential buyers who tell you lies or turn out not to be nice people after all (this happens more often than you might think) and so on...
Agree completely with this line, after experiencing it end of last year!! >:D
Then there's the timewasters >:D 13 at the last count for this litter. 45 minutes on the phone, only to find out that the lady's OH did not even want a dog :huh:
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We find that for every 5 enquiries you get 1 may be suitable :-\.
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breedings hard work but i find it a thoroughly lovely thing to do and i do enjoy it. I also accidentally fell into showing and so followed breeding and i have had some wonderful mentors in schnauzers and have already had some lovely help from people in cockers