Temperament and genetics/lines

[Emilyoliver]

Just some thoughts...

In light of the recent pleas for help with 'aggressive' cockers I started thinking about temperaments, the dreaded 'rage' and genetics/ lines.

First off, I realise this is a forum and that it is often the people with problems who post rather than those without (so the sample is probably not representative as a whole and is skewed towards the doom and gloom side).  I also realise that rage is very rare in today's cockers and not automatically attributable to 'solid lines'. 

However, there are two things that struck me, and I personally find very concerning.

1)   there seem to be a number of cockers reported on here showing worrying behaviour that are/were black and tan, and
2)   there seems to be an acceptance of sorts that ‘guarding’ is quite common (if even normal?) in cockers.

On the first point I was wondering whether there was any way to trace whether these dogs are related in any way (probably difficult if not impossible as some have been rescues).  Interesting black and tans are mentioned also as they aren’t one of the more common colours?

On the second, I don’t agree that this either is, or should be accepted as common or normal behaviour for this breed.  If it is becoming more common, then why is this the case?  Is it related to handling/ training?  Or more worryingly – is it inherited?  If so, are there specific lines in which this behaviour is more prevalent?

And as I am writing this, I have come to an even more worrying conclusion (of sorts).  Nobody is collecting/collating any of this information so we will ultimately never know.  Suggestions relating to ‘rage’ in cockers are often disregarded, and am not suggesting the behaviours described are necessarily this.  But would any of the breed clubs be interested in collecting any of this info for possible collation/ research?  (Or are they already?)  Even if it is a tiny proportion of the breed (I understand any number of issues can arise in any breed and not necessarily be a huge problem overall), I still believe we as owners and lovers of this lovely breed should seek some answers to the questions in case it is something that could be rectified.

(I know Top Barks has done some research on colour and temperament in cockers, but I believe he included working types in the sample.  As the workers have diverged along very separate lines despite being classified as the same breed, I would be interested to see whether anyone has looked into show types only.  Top Barks?  Anyone else?)

Ps.  I sympathise with any owner who is having to or has in the past had to deal with aggression issues in their dog, whatever breed.

[Emilyoliver]

Interesting - never knew/ seen this:

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(08)00140-8/abstract

[Helen]

This has been around for a while (2009?) - it's the Spanish study which, when you look closely at it, is very flawed.

From memory it was based on a pretty small group of dogs in Spain -  A lot of spanish cockers are imported from Europe (and European puppy farms) so the breeding is questionable as well.

[Jane S]

This has been around for a while (2009?) - it's the Spanish study which, when you look closely at it, is very flawed.

Agreed - not a study I would ever take seriously.

As far as collating pedigrees etc, there is no-one currently doing this (probably because it would be such a huge task - would be much easier in a minority breed with smaller numbers) although a few years ago I ran a website for someone who was collecting pedigrees of dogs thought to have or have had Rage (she no longer does this and the website no longer exists) . It would be possible to post pedigree information on our Pedigree board although pedigree analysis really needs to be conducted by a geneticist as it's too easy to come to wrong conclusions and damn particular lines or dogs on the basis of a small sample. This is one of the reasons we wouldn't want members experiencing problems to post pedigrees on any of the public boards (the Pedigree Research board is different as it's members only)

Re black and tan, while black and tan is a recessive colour, it's becoming quite popular and many more of this colour are being bred than was the case even 10 or 20 years ago which might account for the apparent increase in cases of dogs of this colour with behavioural problems ie it's not the colour as such but the fact there are many more of them. I'm sure there are even more dogs of this colour with perfectly normal temperaments who don't have any problems but their owners aren't likely to need this forum

[Emilyoliver]

Fair, i wouldn't attach too much credence to 'random'/ 'flawed' research, but it is none the less a published paper and aside from this there appears to be very little info?  I did read an article about Dr Mugford looking into colour/ aggression issues and work he was doing but it was in the 80s/ early 90s.  All but abandoned as far as I could find.

Am probably just a bit weird, but I find all this fascinating and have myriad questions (but am just like that I suppose).  Would really enjoy collecting this kind of info in the interests of finding out more or at least to retain a database for future analysis.  But am also aware of breeders being wary of providing data which may be seen to be incriminating.  (Have witnessed a number of 'exchanges' in the past related to FN and suspected lines/ stud dogs - and all very nasty).

And I understand about owners posting pedigrees causing potential alarm/ panic and mistrust of perfectly reputable breeders.

(also, while puppy farm breedeing may well produce dogs with less than decent temperaments, they may have sourced some of their dogs from lines which could be traced back to known kennels.  It is an extra variable, but a variable never the less).

[Jane S]

I agree it's very interesting but collating any kind of data on temperament issues is even more challenging than collating data on health issues (because of the many, many variables) and is probably the reason it's not been done to any great degree and where it has been started, it's been quickly abandoned (like Dr Mugford's research, and the website mentioned above). There is nothing to stop anyone collating data for their own research purposes (with the owners' consent of course) so if you have the time and resources available, then why not?

 

[Emilyoliver]

There is nothing to stop anyone collating data for their own research purposes (with the owners' consent of course) so if you have the time and resources available, then why not?
 

Hmmm, time and resources - if only!!  Anyone want to pay me my equivalent salary?  Always so frustrating having to work for a living.

[Jane S]

There is nothing to stop anyone collating data for their own research purposes (with the owners' consent of course) so if you have the time and resources available, then why not?
 

Hmmm, time and resources - if only!!  Anyone want to pay me my equivalent salary?  Always so frustrating having to work for a living.

I know the feeling

[PennyB]

2)   there seems to be an acceptance of sorts that ‘guarding’ is quite common (if even normal?) in cockers.

resource guarding in itself is normal dog behaviour (and its not just linked to cockers) but obviously not wanted if a dog resource guards from humans

what concerns me is that as with all things some of the behaviours you describe aren't just in cockers but there is a risk here in just focusing on cockers then we end up with stereotypes if only studies are done in this breed re this and it is so difficult when you put into the mix some inexperienced owners who can't/don't always recognise normal and unwanted behaviours (and sometimes experience isn't equated as to how many years you've had dogs/cockers).

Also, not all behaviours are static as sometimes what may be a dog pushing boundaries as they sometimes do in varying degrees, which may be at times aggressive but are quickly nipped in the bud can we say that dog is aggressive/has aggressive tendencies (some would say all dogs have the potential for aggression)

[HBP]

Really interesing post. Sounds like a full time job unfortunately (or maybe a phd project?  ) Wonder how you would go about overcoming the nature vs nurture component?

As an aside, I have a black and tan who has never shown any aggression of any kind. Was interested to read about the number of temperament cases you've seen on here, think I've only seen one but then i have only been here a short time.

[Jane S]

2)   there seems to be an acceptance of sorts that ‘guarding’ is quite common (if even normal?) in cockers.

resource guarding in itself is normal dog behaviour (and its not just linked to cockers) but obviously not wanted if a dog resource guards from humans

what concerns me is that as with all things some of the behaviours you describe aren't just in cockers but there is a risk here in just focusing on cockers then we end up with stereotypes if only studies are done in this breed re this and it is so difficult when you put into the mix some inexperienced owners who can't/don't always recognise normal and unwanted behaviours (and sometimes experience isn't equated as to how many years you've had dogs/cockers).

Also, not all behaviours are static as sometimes what may be a dog pushing boundaries as they sometimes do in varying degrees, which may be at times aggressive but are quickly nipped in the bud can we say that dog is aggressive/has aggressive tendencies (some would say all dogs have the potential for aggression)

That's very true - another problem is that what might start as a small issue which could be easily modified with the right approach can become a huge problem eg if advice is sought from trainers/behaviourists who practice dominance theory and prescribe aversion or punishment based techniques which can make the behaviour worse There's no easy answer that's for sure and you're right, if you look at a general dog forum, the sort of problems we see here also are quite common generally (ie not breed specific)

[Murphys Law]

2)   there seems to be an acceptance of sorts that ‘guarding’ is quite common (if even normal?) in cockers.

resource guarding in itself is normal dog behaviour (and its not just linked to cockers) but obviously not wanted if a dog resource guards from humans

what concerns me is that as with all things some of the behaviours you describe aren't just in cockers but there is a risk here in just focusing on cockers then we end up with stereotypes if only studies are done in this breed re this and it is so difficult when you put into the mix some inexperienced owners who can't/don't always recognise normal and unwanted behaviours (and sometimes experience isn't equated as to how many years you've had dogs/cockers).

Also, not all behaviours are static as sometimes what may be a dog pushing boundaries as they sometimes do in varying degrees, which may be at times aggressive but are quickly nipped in the bud can we say that dog is aggressive/has aggressive tendencies (some would say all dogs have the potential for aggression)

I would agree with this.

Even my cavalier, quite possibly the most laid back dog ever  had a very brief spell showing aggression. He was our first dog and we let him get away with murder at first but when we laid down and the rules he never showed any aggression again.

[Emilyoliver]

2)   there seems to be an acceptance of sorts that ‘guarding’ is quite common (if even normal?) in cockers.

resource guarding in itself is normal dog behaviour (and its not just linked to cockers) but obviously not wanted if a dog resource guards from humans

what concerns me is that as with all things some of the behaviours you describe aren't just in cockers but there is a risk here in just focusing on cockers then we end up with stereotypes if only studies are done in this breed re this and it is so difficult when you put into the mix some inexperienced owners who can't/don't always recognise normal and unwanted behaviours (and sometimes experience isn't equated as to how many years you've had dogs/cockers).

Also, not all behaviours are static as sometimes what may be a dog pushing boundaries as they sometimes do in varying degrees, which may be at times aggressive but are quickly nipped in the bud can we say that dog is aggressive/has aggressive tendencies (some would say all dogs have the potential for aggression)

Yes, true, I did mention that some of the incidents could well be due to handling/ training and agree that incidents can escalate if not dealt with quickly and in the correct manner.  Environment/ nurture can defintely influence behaviour, however underlying temperament could have as much of an effect in terms of the way a dog may react to a certain situation.

Also agree that aggression occurs in probably all breeds to some or other extent.  However, if one used a mixed breed sample then it would introduce yet another variable (or 20!) such as the original function of the breed and how this might influence aggressive tendencies.  I find it more odd that cockers should show aggressive/ guarding tendencies bearing in mind that they had been bred specifically as hunting/ retrieving dogs.  While some breeds are described in the standard as 'reserved' or similar, cockers are specifically described as merry and sweet (if i remember rightly?).  I would be less surprised if a guarding type breed exhibited guarding tendencies as that is  in its make up - tied closely to original function.  Also, by including a variety of breeds the risk is that a specific problem in a single breed would be diluted amongst a larger general data set, thus possible obscuruing a trend (should it exist).

As for the nature/nurture distinction, I think some of the previous studies looked at brain activity and serotonin levels so there are potential options/ routes by which this might be established.  But complex, and requiring more than a quick survey or two and a look through a couple pedgrees. 

It is a vast and complicated, but fascinating subject...  Perhaps something to focus on during my retirement (unless any kind soul is forthcoming with a sizeable research grant!) 

[Helly D]

Very interesting post. I have also wondered about the fairly frequent posts about guarding and aggression that I have read and I've only been a member for just over a year. It does concern me as I was wondering if this was a trait that was occurring in certain lines. My first cocker (red) was a rescue over 30 years ago and she was aggressive and guarded but we didn't know what her background was. I worked as a vet nurse and it was a common theory among vets that red or golden cockers had a particular notoriety for this behaviour. Since then we have had two more cockers, a blue roan and a black, neither of whom showed the slightest hint of aggression or guarding. In fact they were so chilled the vets used to joke they could literally do anything and they would just sit there. However, we never let them get away with anything and had them from 8 weeks old so that may have had an impact.

We are now looking for a breeder who will have puppies available in the summer but it is with a bit of trepidation as so many of the lines our previous dogs came from don't seem to exist any more. I would love to know from which lines these dogs are from who are exhibiting this behaviour, but as Jane says, there are so many variables to consider re inexperienced owners and the environment the dog is in. Let's hope that the pendulum is not swinging back again to the era when it was a problem in the breed.

[kaycee]

Interesting subject which we did a little looking into a few years ago.Our conclusion was that  it may be connected with the Thyroid gland, if out of balance one of the first things people noticed was  a change of behavior. We were surprised the amount of dogs that suffered with an overactive or underactive thyroid, one of our dogs included, he was a totally different dog on medication after it was diognosed, it just worries me a bit because  although a dog can get it early in life, obviously as they get older there is more risk of a thyroid problem, unless the dog is tested it can be mistaken for some sort of temperment problem.We have seen this problem with all sorts of breeds includeing cross breeds,as the cocker spaniel is the second most popular breed, are we more of a target of this maybe! its a bit sad because many people you meet and admire your cockers very often refer to Cocker Rage, im glad to say i have not come across it and i had my first cocker 28 years ago!!