Tilly has been called a Tri colour twice now???

[minimoo]

looks like a lovely black and tan to me , tri s have a lot of white in them in my experience , you find that people who don't have cockers who you may meet on walks like to tell you their opinion on cocker all too often , as in, ive had one person telling me what a lovely American cocker my orange roan boy is , I said hes not American and she said oh yes only they do Orange roans in American cockers 

[HBP]

Was just going to say the same as Fluff, is her dad not a black and tan? He looks quite dark in his pic. Did you get a pedigree you could check on? X

[8 Hairy Feet]

Aw she's lovely
Our Ellie is down on her
stupid "Dog Lovers Registration"
cert as Tri when she is
clearly blue roan and tan....
 

[butterflywings21]

Got all her paper work, am going to try and find out. We did meet dad but it was such a whirlwind time that we were all to focused on puppy and her mum and older sister. She does have a lot of cardamine in her papers.
Parents are called cardamine sable classic and cardamine star light, but this means nothing to me.

[butterflywings21]

 just googled and cardamine star light (mum) and she is black white and tan in colour and cardamine sable (dad) is sable colour. I know we meet three adults dogs when we visited them, one being mum and two other males. I must have got confused with which was her dad.  Any more views on this??

[HBP]

So the dad is the other dog in the photo then?  He looks like a sable. Not sure if that works genetically?  Would have thought sable a recessive combo.

[Nicola]

I was just going to say that going by the name her sire must be a sable and there is a sable dog in the foreground of the photo with the liver and tan one. I'm not 100% 'up' on sable colour inheritance as it doesn't really occur in working Cockers, but I would think that her sire is actually the sable dog as it really can't be the liver and tan one (IF her dam is a liver tricolour as you've said!). I *think* the dog would be either Bbeheh or BBeheh to appear as sable so could then pass on the black B gene (or it could be BB/Bb and then A/a something depending on where they think the sable gene appears!). I could be wrong on that though as I don't know a huge amount about the sable pattern.

However you said that her mother is a liver tricolour and that's what appears to be in the photo, although it's not all that clear, so it's odd that she's coming up as a black tri when you Google her What colour was she when you saw her?? If the dam is a black tri then the father could still be the liver and tan dog. That's all very confusing!

[butterflywings21]

to be honest all I remember about mum was she was dark in colour and had a lot of white and was very chilled out. Didn't really take much notice other than that as we were asking so many other questions and the children were playing with the puppies and other dogs.

Can black not come down from other relatives?? just like what happens in humans??

[Nicola]

Even if the dam is a black tri and not a liver going by the name 'Sable Classic' I would assume that the sire is the sable dog. The breeder really should have been a lot clearer with you about who was the sire of the puppies.

[Nicola]

Can black not come down from other relatives?? just like what happens in humans??

At least one of the parents must carry the dominant B black gene for it to be expressed and recessively coloured dogs, e.g. livers, can't carry this gene, it's not possible or they would actually BE black instead of liver. Puppies inherit one copy of each gene from each parent so if it's not there in the parents then it can't be inherited regardless of what colour other relatives are. Genes may not manifest/be expressed in every generation but they have to be there to be passed on, they can't literally 'skip' generations. Two liver (or two liver pigmented red/gold) dogs cannot produce black puppies regardless of what colour their other relatives are.

As an example, my male dog Rodaidh is a liver pigmented gold and he has been mated to two Hearing Dogs litter sisters several times now. One of the bitches is black and the other one is liver pigmented red. With the black bitch he can ONLY produce a mixture of black and liver puppies because she carries the dominant black gene, they both carry the liver gene and she does not carry the red gene. With her red sister however he can ONLY produce liver pigmented red/gold puppies because neither of them carry the dominant black gene and the red/gold gene that both of them carry 'overshadows' the liver coat colour. So even though they are litter sisters it is impossible for them to produce the same colour of puppies when they're mated to a recessively coloured dog like Ro because the two of them are not genetically the same.

[butterflywings21]

Even if the dam is a black tri and not a liver going by the name 'Sable Classic' I would assume that the sire is the sable dog. The breeder really should have been a lot clearer with you about who was the sire of the puppies.

Yes sire sable classic and dam star light. Just shows how I didn't know a lot when looking for Tilly and how my head went when seeing her and not a lot else mattered. At the end of the day I have the best dog I could ask for in every way, she is a laid back dog that is loyal, happy and easy to train and  that I could not get better even if I tried.

[Nicola]

You were lucky and that's great. For others reading though it does underline the importance of finding breeders that know and give all the relevant information though, particularly regarding parentage/health testing etc., as it may not always work out so well.

[Fluff]

This has been a really interesting thread. I often wondered about how it works as Daisy's dam was a liver and her sire a black solid, but her litter had both black and liver pups, so I suppose her sire must have been a liver-carrying black. It all makes sense now, thanks Nicola

[Nicola]

This has been a really interesting thread. I often wondered about how it works as Daisy's dam was a liver and her sire a black solid, but her litter had both black and liver pups, so I suppose her sire must have been a liver-carrying black. It all makes sense now, thanks Nicola

Yes, if her dam is liver (bb) and her sire is liver-carrying black (Bb) then you'll get a mixture of bb (liver) and Bb (liver-carrying black) puppies. They all inherit the liver b gene from their mum and then either the b or B gene from the dad and that determines whether they look liver or black. It is very interesting; we could look at doing a sticky thread of some sort on colour genetics which we can pin at the top of this board.

[butterflywings21]

You were lucky and that's great. For others reading though it does underline the importance of finding breeders that know and give all the relevant information though, particularly regarding parentage/health testing etc., as it may not always work out so well.

out of interest what do you mean by that.
also just googled sire side and his mum was black and his dad was golden. would he not carry the black that passes on?? this is all interesting but at the same time confusing (genetics)