Advice on breeding.

[BJ's Mommy]

Hi all.

Can anyone out there give me advice on breeding from your bitch please. ?
I'm looking into breeding but want as much advice as I can.
For example. :
Health test prices
How old should she be?
 
I have been researching via books and other cocker breeders but would like as much info I can get before I go into it.

Thanks
Nic

[its.sme]

Hi Nic,

Have you looked at the advice from the KC ?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breeding/

I'm sure someone who has breed from there dogs will post soon.

[Jane S]

Have you read the pinned threads on this board - they cover health tests and general things you need to know before breeding. This is a huge subject and it's great you're doing research first as breeding is expensive (if done properly) & quite often does not end up the happy, rewarding experience you might expect. The health tests are not inexpensive but essential these days - costs will depend on which you need to do eg if your girl is not hereditarily clear for prcd_PRA and FN via her parents, then both these DNA tests should be done (you can check what tests were carried out on her parents via the My KC website service). If you need to do the DNA tests as well as clinical eye testing and ideally hip scoring, then costs could be up to £300 or more. As a general rule, I would say you need a budget of £1000 before you start, not just to cover the health testing but also the costs of emergency veterinary treatment (an hours of hours caesarean section can cost hundreds of pounds), also costs of equipment you need to buy, food for mum and the litter etc. I'm not quoting these figures to put you off - it is not unusual for a bitch to need a c-section so you need to be prepared in advance for the cost.

As to how old, I would say not before 2 years old - there are some who breed very young bitches (some at just over 12 months old!) but I feel this is unethical (even if allowed by the KC) as all bitches should be allowed to mature in mind and body before being bred from. Just because a bitch is physically capable of giving birth to a litter at a young age doesn't mean they should be bred from but sadly I see it all too often.

PS Aren't your girls spayed or have I misunderstood previous posts?

[daw]

Hi- I'm a newbie and not sure about the etiquette of saying two things I really feel;

1. there an awful lot of people breeding cockers out there- I've been surprised how many- and I wonder if there can be enough good homes for all these puppies.

2. whatever you decide please read up on CoI, the co-efficient of inbreeding- it's already higher for cockers than for some other breeds and as the KC says 'basically the lower the better'.  As a natural scientist I'm pleased that the KC are trying to encourage breeders to bring it down- and have a mate select programme so there's every reason now to select very carefully and a way to do it.

[Jane S]

Hi- I'm a newbie and not sure about the etiquette of saying two things I really feel;

1. there an awful lot of people breeding cockers out there- I've been surprised how many- and I wonder if there can be enough good homes for all these puppies.

2. whatever you decide please read up on CoI, the co-efficient of inbreeding- it's already higher for cockers than for some other breeds and as the KC says 'basically the lower the better'.  As a natural scientist I'm pleased that the KC are trying to encourage breeders to bring it down- and have a mate select programme so there's every reason now to select very carefully and a way to do it.

I agree with you totally - the many puppy sales sites are full of Cocker litters and I often wonder how all these pups find good homes. Experienced breeders with a good reputation may be able to build up a waiting list but even then, good homes don't grow on trees & it's not easy - much harder for new breeders without an established reputation.

It is indeed good that the KC are trying to persuade breeders to breed for lower COIs although the recent in depth Breed Population Analysis for Cockers does not make very encouraging reading:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/686540/spaniel__cocker_.pdf

[AlanT]

My dog was bred in a home environment by two knowlegable people who kept both the dog and the bitch as their own pet animals.

You could therefore see both parents living in a domestic environment and check their character.

Mine came from the second litter. There were 10 pups in the first litter and 9 in mine. All born healthy but mine was the smallest pup. The runt some would say. But the couple said that he should grow up well because this was the pattern in the first litter also.

Mum was a red/gold solid and Dad a blue-roan.

This couple had no difficulty homing these pups. If there were more people breeding dogs like this maybe the awful puppy-farms would not find a market.

We found this couple through the KC and net searching. This makes it easier to locate a local dog from a good background

Here he is at 18 months or so:

[Jane S]

Your dog is lovely Alan but I wouldn't necessarily agree that there should be more people like your breeder breeding and that would reduce the demand from puppy farms - it really isn't always the best way to do things to breed from a pet dog and bitch; sometimes this works but it doesn't always - only on a very few occasions has our own male dog suited one of our girls. I'm sure it's nice from a buyer's point of view to be able to meet both parents on the premises but it's not always the sign of a good breeder (indeed puppy farmers, commercial breeders, backyard breeders with very little knowledge all tend to use their own males on their bitches as it saves money and is very convenient no doubt - some even pretend these dogs are there pets, hiding the reality of their operation) You also make no mention of health testing and the need for detailed knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree - all dogs, no matter where they come from, carry genes for desirable traits as well as genes for less desirable ones (health conditions etc) so a good breeder will use their knowledge to try and select the best possible sire for their bitch/bitches and this may not be the dog that is most convenient. I also don't share your view that puppies bred from a breeder such as yours are always easy to home- it is NEVER easy to find suitable homes for puppies these days especially if the breeder is very careful and vets all enquiries in depth (experience shows that not all would-be puppy buyers are who they say they are and not all people are suitable to be owners, no matter how nice they are)

[Penelope]

It is such a minefield.  I know a lady whose daughter bred her spaniel.  As far as she was concerned, she had found fantastic homes for all the pups and one went to a "friend" who lived on a nearby farm.
A few months later, the daughter was asked to pop in and feed the dogs, chickens, ducks etc on the farm as the owners went away for a long weekend.  She turned up to feed them and found a couple of dogs, but not the puppy she had bred and sold to them.
She fed the other animals and decided to have a little look round the out buildings.
Thank heavens she did - in one of the buildings, she found "her" home bred pup, all by itself, filthy dirty, no fresh water and laying in straw.  The pup was naturally delighted to see her and also to be let out.   
She took the pup home with her.  Went back the next couple of days to feed the rest of the animals.   

The worst thing was that when the "owners" returned, it was over a week before they actually asked her if she had seen the cocker pup.  Which made her think they maybe hadn't even been out to the shed to see the poor pup.   

Needless to say, she had very strong words with them and has kept the pup - who although now well fed, loved and healthy not surprisingly has terrible separation anxiety. 

Words fail me that someone she knew could do this to a puppy.  What would have happened to that poor baby if she hadn't saved him?

That is what worries me about anyone who thinks of breeding.  With the best will in the world, you cannot be 100% certain about the new life you send your puppies to.  We often wonder what happened to the litter mates of our dogs.  Who knows where they all ended up?  Are they happy?  Healthy?  Still in their original homes?  Who knows? 

I just couldn't let puppies go so could never, ever breed (even if I had a bitch! LOL)

[Countrygirl]

Oh Penny, that is such a dreadful story.  The poor little cocker, thank goodness your friend found him in time. 

That has really upset me, left all on his own with nothing and they didn't even notice he wasn't there for a whole week.  I am so glad he is alright now.  How lucky was he.

[Mudmagnets]

Story beggars belief, you would think the 'friend' would be more careful a) with the pup and b) knowing breeder of pup was going in to feed the other animals - obviously couldn't give a monkey's for anyone but themselves, so glad the pup was found.