Author Topic: ftw Elan Linnet  (Read 3014 times)

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Offline Alpha

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ftw Elan Linnet
« on: April 24, 2007, 12:39:05 PM »
Does anyone know if this is the L & W bitch that Wendy Openshaw breed from. Just reading on Deepfleets site that having a L/W bitch is a real bonus when breeding. The reason I ask is 2 fold 1 (I can't seem to find Badgers pedigree aka Mallowdale Don) but Rackateer was his sire and "Flo" was the bitch, so I wondered if this was her, also Clare that I bought Lilly from was offered over £2000 for her (un seen because of her colouring)and I wondered why lemon seems to be so popular with some breeders.  We have nothing but gratitude for Clare and Tony keeping their word and letting us have Lilly we wouldn't be without her.   But does this mean at some point when she is older we need to seriously consider breeding from her her sire is Whaupley Reiver and her mum is a pet, so we know her background and temperament are ace, I just don't know if I could part with any of her puppies when push came to shove.

Offline Nicola

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 02:34:14 PM »
Colour is not particularly important when breeding working cockers so I do not know why anyone would say that having a lemon and white bitch is a bonus. Unless they are breeding for the pet market where people will choose a dog based more on what it looks like than on its working ability in order to make money rather than breeding dogs of proven ability to go tol working/trialling homes  :-\  There are certain kinds of breeder out there who will look at an 'unusually' coloured dog and see nothing but £ signs.

Just because your dog is lemon and white does NOT mean that you 'need to' breed from her at all. Colour would be the last consideration in choosing a working cocker to breed from. Temperament and proven working ability are much, much more important. If your bitch is a proven worker in the field or a strong competitor/winner in field trials and has also had all the relevant health tests and there is a proven demand for her pups then you might consider finding a suitable dog to put her to. No owner of a good stud dog would let their dog breed with a bitch just because she was a certain colour.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline Helen

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2007, 02:36:09 PM »
agree with nic 100 percent - also with lemon roans sometimes comes very pale eye colour which, traditionally, working cocker breeders and triallers do not like....
helen & jarvis x


Offline silkstocking

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2007, 02:36:48 PM »
Colour is not particularly important when breeding working cockers so I do not know why anyone would say that having a lemon and white bitch is a bonus. Unless they are breeding for the pet market where people will choose a dog based more on what it looks like than on its working ability in order to make money rather than breeding dogs of proven ability to go tol working/trialling homes  :-\  There are certain kinds of breeder out there who will look at an 'unusually' coloured dog and see nothing but £ signs.

Just because your dog is lemon and white does NOT mean that you 'need to' breed from her at all. Colour would be the last consideration in choosing a working cocker to breed from. Temperament and proven working ability are much, much more important. If your bitch is a proven worker in the field or a strong competitor/winner in field trials and has also had all the relevant health tests and there is a proven demand for her pups then you might consider finding a suitable dog to put her to. No owner of a good stud dog would let their dog breed with a bitch just because she was a certain colour.

I totally agree with what you have said Nicola ;)

Offline Nicola

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2007, 02:38:04 PM »
agree with nic 100 percent - also with lemon roans sometimes comes very pale eye colour which, traditionally, working cocker breeders and triallers do not like....

Exactly Helen, I commented on this pale pigmentation on another thread yesterday as I personally don't like it and know that I am not alone in this  ;)
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline maximus

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2007, 02:48:25 PM »
is the pale pigmentation genetic cause Charlie is lemon and white but has dark brown eyes and nose but his lemon bits are very dark too more like orange ?

i'm not keen on the pale skin either  ;)

Offline lyn

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 03:57:24 PM »
i have just checked the deepfleet website and it does say that a lemon and white breeding bitch is a bonus :huh: why is this? i thought workers were bred purely for the ability to assist in the hunting of game or for trialling.
now ,don't shoot me down for this next comment but, i do think workers make fantastic pets. i can honestly say with hand on heart that having ellie in my life is wonderful and i will only ever have working cockers in future. they are small but not tiny have lovely coats that are fairly easy to manage(if you don't count the ears) and most importantly they are willing to learn and wanting to please. oh and they are fantastic with kids. i would recomend them to anyone.
i would also say that breeding is a major commitment that should be left to the experts.who on here who has a cocker would know the first thing about genetics and stuff like that. i know its a subject that you can read about but i do think that theory and real life have major differences. if i were ever to buy another worker(or any dog for that matter) i would be looking for someone who is out to preserve/improve the breed and not just someone who is in it for the money(after the heartache over paddy, this is more important to me than ever).pound signs equalls trouble if you ask me ph34r

edited to add...... sorry alpha, i am not getting at you ;) but i had just been doing some research on ellies pedigree and one thing led to another on some websites and i ended up looking at pedigrees of other workers only to discover one breeder had bred half brother and sister ;) :o i know this is sometimes done, but it really goes against the grain for me.
didn't mean to ramble on either :005:
do you have any photos you can post of your puppy. we would all love to see her

Offline wrenside

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2007, 04:02:19 PM »
Hi Alpha,
Sounds like you've got a nicely bred working cocker, well done for going to reputable breeders who clearly care about where their pups go to and don't care about making money, £2000 is alot of money to turn down!!, you've bought from some very honest breeders.
I'm not sure if ftw Elan Linnet is Wendy Openshaws I'm afraid, but I do know that FTCH Whaupley Riever is a superb dog with a really lovely nature and his owners are very selective concerning bitches suitable to put to him so your pups dam must have been a good working bitch.
Lemon and White is considered to be rather trendy with the shooting/pet owners rather than the serious trialling folk who obviously want trialling ability above all else. Colour is not a good reason to breed from your bitch, if anything it should be the last consideration at the end of a very long list of sound reasons to breed such as good example of the breed, fantastic working ability, biddable nature, kind temperament, health scrrening etc.... If you're unsure and want advice on breeding from your bitch talk to the breeders you bought her off and ask their opinions and advice because they should know her lines thoroughly.
Sounds like your bitch is still quite young, so breeding from her just yet shouldn't really be on the adgenda just yet. Enjoy your new working cocker, make sure she's micro chipped/tatooed, so she's not easily stolen, and make sure she's well trained or worked/shot over and then maybe when she's 2-3 years old if she's exceptional you should consider breeding from her.

I hope this helps  :blink:

Best wishes,

Mary

Offline Nicola

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 04:12:59 PM »
i have just checked the deepfleet website and it does say that a lemon and white breeding bitch is a bonus :huh: why is this? i thought workers were bred purely for the ability to assist in the hunting of game or for trialling.


They should be. Like I said, I can really only think that this would be a bonus to someone who is breeding to get an unusual colour to sell to people who think that that is the most important thing.

now ,don't shoot me down for this next comment but, i do think workers make fantastic pets.

Not shooting you down Lyn but I think that some working cockers make great pets whereas others don't. Alfie for example would not make a good 'pet' dog as his energy levels, hunting drive and instincts are just too strong. He really does live for his working training. He is a lovely dog in the house as long as he has enough exercise, and by that I mean 3 hours per day of hard running and training but he would be a nightmare for an inexperienced average 'pet' home to walk. I am by no means an expert but I am usually (mentally and physically) exhausted after being out with him as I have to constantly watch him and second guess what he is going to do all the time so that I can direct him. My Mum is used to dogs and is good with them, my Stepdad having two working springers at home, but she cannot handle Alfie on a walk, as seen in my post about him going after horses when she was walking him. I can't say 100% but I am 99% sure that if I had been there he wouldn't have got the chance to do that. I am cr@p company on walks atm as I can't really talk to anyone else or it takes my attention off Alfie which he takes full advantage of  >:D

Other than me and my dog walker who has HPR dogs and is excellent the only other person I would trust to walk Alfie is my Stepdad. Tilly on the other hand is a different matter, although she works as well she is much more biddable than Alfie and is a much easier dog, although I still think that she needs to do what she was bred to do.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline workingcockers

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2007, 06:39:38 PM »
will reply to this post when I get a moment to put my thoughts in order.

There are many issues in this that need addressed.

20 years ago lemon and whites were ten a penny in some parts, but 'the public' didnt know about working cockers so they werent so popular then and could be difficult to sell (people thought they were albino springers) - how times have changed!! Popularity is going to ruin this strain in inexperienced hands. Too many people in the breed a year or 2 and breeding from their bitch with ab no idea what is behind her (names on a pedigree mean nothing without knowing what they were like) and using a dog whose owner is inexperienced too.

Also - will have to try and get a photobucket?? acc to try and post some pics of my lemon and whites to show nice dark eyes :luv:
(including a nice wee son of Ft Ch Whaupley Reiver - well pleased with him - great house dog too)

Bottom line is for colour. pigment, temperament (and that includes how easy to live with are they), health etc -
'Its all in the breeding'

Write later

Cheers
Kirsten
Kirsten Strachan
Lorne Working Cockers

Offline Alpha

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 10:56:17 PM »
I have found Badgers pedigree at last and the bitch is actually Jenoren Amber, it has actually surprised me to find out that Badger and Lilly have over 15 common ancestors...small world eh?
But my question wasn't about breeding her for money or pets just why do some breeders think it is a good thing her coloring, I just fell in love with her but the other working cocker's I've had have been Badger black and white and Oscar was a blue roan.
Not quite sure she will ever make a gundog as she has no interest at the moment in retrieving, you throw her a ball or dummy and she will go off to retrieve and come back without it........she likes to go to it and go "there if you really want it you know where it is."
Mind you that other than acting like she is on springs seems to be her only fault her recall for a 15 week old puppy is in my opinion amazing and her house training has been A1. And she is the most inactive working cocker I have come across she whinges every walk with her tail wagging 100 to the dozen and likes nothing more than sleeping all day on the sofa listening to the radio. She has been affectionately re christen "The Ginger Whinger"..oh bless I so certain all this will change over the next 18 months.

Offline lyn

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 02:54:31 PM »
alpha, lily sounds lovely. don't worry about her not fetching the ball back, ellie has only just started bringing stuff back to me and now she's great at it. i wish ellie would lounge about a bit more :005: the little hooligan is busy inspecting my outdoor planters and keeps giving sideways glances to see if i'm still watching her. obviously i should have bought something other than plants with my money. i think she has plans to eat them asap :005: her nick name is ten bellies ellie  :lol: she is a pig!!!!!!!

Offline Tasha

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 03:57:31 PM »
lemon and white was a trendy colour to have around here for a while, think people wanted something different from the usually black or liver dogs.  personally I'm more interested in the dogs ability than the colour but I did want my first cocker to be a black bitch :luv:



Offline workingcockers

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 05:18:07 PM »
There’s no right or wrong answer to breeding lemon/white to lemon/white

Today, the colour is popular, as I posted before, years ago that really wasn’t the case. Maybe because of this popularity a lemon and white bitch is seen by some as a cash cow (but only if you put her to certain dogs and that is becoming difficult so wouldn’t bank on that for making money without a lot of homework first lol, seen the results of someone who didn’t) . But – no good breeder that I know charges more for the colour and I certainly haven’t and wont do in the future.

You will always get breeders that breed for colour only in every breed dictated to by what’s fashionable at the time, possibly to the exclusion of other important points. To me that is wrong and a slippery slope.

However, the lemon and white colour along with white and black was common in a few Scottish bloodlines (I’m not saying though it didn’t pop up elsewhere).  As is common in dog breeding, when you have a good line you line breed. Add to that lack of motorways etc in days gone by, you tended to find lines clustered among the local area. Really, only comparatively recently have these lines moved across the country and of course the original breeders of these lines are now long gone barring (at least) one (Anahar).

Now, while Im sure that colour wasn’t the be all and end all, it is easy to see these lighter coloured dogs in the countryside. Think of fox hounds – each pack line breeds to its own and each pack is slightly different in type and colour. Some hounds are mainly white with tan, others are darker with the dark hound blanket markings over their backs. I am sure this is to do with the geography of the area in which they hunt. So, it follows that up here with green and grey, mist etc, these lighter cockers are high visibility.

You also have to factor in personal preference – its human nature and it would be naïve to discount it. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way but its personal preference that attracts people to the cocker and again to the type they go for.

If you have a well pigmented lemon and white, (even the whitest of lemon roans can have dark eyes as can be seen in the pictures I posted in the photo section under Lorne), there is absolutely no reason why you should not breed to another lemon/white if that is the best dog for your bitch. As I said before, if you are line breeding, particularly to these old almost extinct lines(in their pure form), then chances are the lines you want will be a parti-colour (but not always). In the same way, if you wanted to line breed say the Wernffrwd lines (using them as an example as I personally love these little Welsh dogs) , chances are you will start with a black or liver bitch and mate to a black or liver dog as I don’t think I know of any from these lines that arent black/black with white or liver.

As light eyes are not generally liked, a genuine breeder will know when the eye colour is starting to lighten and will make the next mating to a white and black or blue roan or a black if suitably bred. As a point of interest my own Lucille is 3rd generation lemon/white to lemon/white breeding and her eyes are so dark you can only see the pupils when the light shines at a certain angle into her eyes. While it has to be acknowledged that these dogs are not being bred for the show ring but for their ability and other relevant points, lack of pigment does concern most. As is common knowledge, working breeders don’t follow the parti to parti or solid to solid breeding pattern of the show cockers, but in practice, this does happen as can be seen from above if line breeding for certain lines but its not a big issue for us.

It could be argued that most of today’s successful trial dogs are black or liver but I think this is because they are from successful sires who are producing the goods and are the darker colours, not because of a dislike for the lighter parti’s. There have been lemon roans/whites made up to FT CH – W Dotterell and Serin, M Sorceror, Findlays Flyer, R Gold of M in the last 15 years or so which shows that triallers appreciate a good dog regardless of the colour and not because of it (Reiver I would call gold in colour so along with him is C Goldstar and Gusty Silvan off the top of my head for recent FT CH)
Kirsten Strachan
Lorne Working Cockers

Offline Nicola

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Re: ftw Elan Linnet
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 11:16:09 PM »
Great essay Kirsten  ;) :lol:

Lucy is gorgeous, I will have one of her pups some day  ;)
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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