Author Topic: Mating male dogs..  (Read 7942 times)

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Offline Ando

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Mating male dogs..
« on: July 12, 2009, 02:44:00 PM »
Hi Everyone,
                 I am thinking of buying a boy cocker spaniel & would love to use him on my Orange roan bitch if she clears all health tests.
Is it true that some boy dogs wont mate with a bitch that they live with?? (Run with??)
Also is it true that boy dogs have to clear their tubes before becoming fertile??
What age does a Boy cocker become sexual active?

Cheers

Offline spanielcrazy

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 03:07:26 PM »
Oh dear, where to begin  :-\ If you don't know the answer to these questions, you don't have enough dog experience to be breeding  :-\

Have a look at these threads:

 http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=3428.0

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=3420.0

Or search the forum for stories of when breeding turned to heartbreak, or the results of people buying puppies from inexperienced (or worse) breeders.


And to answer your questions: 1. True  2. False and ridiculous  3. 4-6 months but waaaaaay too young to breed, ideally should be 18+ months
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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2009, 03:10:23 PM »
Welcome to the forum  :blink:
This recent thread on breeding has some good advice and links to what could go wrong
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=61826.0

Offline julesph

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2009, 03:11:19 PM »
I don't mean to sound negative, but do you really have to mate your dogs? Do we really need more puppies when the rescues centres are overflowing with unwanted dogs and pups? Many excellent and experienced breeders are not breeding at the moment due to the worry that the credit crunch may mean that pups find themselves homeless or without adequate veterinary care because people cannot afford it.

Plus, with all due respect I would leave it to the experts who know what they are doing.  If you are unsure as to a basic thing such as when male dogs become sexually active, you are probably not the best person to be breeding dogs in any case.

Sorry if you find me blunt but this is an issue I care very deeply about.

Offline fifer

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 03:21:55 PM »
Can I send you our leaflet on "The Stud Dog" please before you think about or consider breeding from your potential dog?  What about his health or don't you think that has any bearing on the future health of any puppies?

This is some of the text from our leaflet, I don't want to discourage RESPONSIBLE and KNOWLEDGABLE breeding but please be aware of what you are doing.

Recommended Reading - FIRST

Complete Book of Dog Breeding
Author Dan Rice DVM


Genetics for Dog Breeders
Author Roy Robinson FIBiol


Canine Reproduction: The Breeder's Guide
Author Phyllis A Holt

No dog should ever be used at stud that is not a good example of his breed or has proven his ability whether on the shooting field or show ring.  His temperament should be exemplary and he should be reasonably young, fit, healthy and tested for his breed’s known hereditary diseases.

Something you should seriously consider before using your dog at stud is that once he has been used at stud he will always know what this is all about and could become a pest if nearby bitches are in season.

It happens occasionally that an entire litter of puppies (and not inconsiderable costs) was dumped on the stud dog owner when the bitch's owners could no longer cope with them because they didn't realize how much it would cost, or the responsibility caring for a litter involved. Are you ready to take care of and place your dog's offspring if this should happen to you? Can you afford it?

Most important could you find them homes?  When for example over 20,000 Cockers, 15,000 ESS, 11,000 CKCS are already being bred and registered each year according to Kennel Club figures.  Are the homes available for them and the even larger number of un-registered pups that are being bred every year?  Many of them end up in rescue, on the free ads and some that sadly don’t make it to a rescue are PTS.

Is this what you want for the pups your dog sired?

Remember you are every bit as responsible for the welfare of the pups as the owner of the bitch, for the rest of their lives.

Is it REALLY worth it?

Points To  Consider
Is your dog Kennel Club registered? If so is he in your sole ownership, co-owned, any endorsements on his Kennel Club registration which would prevent his progeny from being registered?  Is your dog healthy with two descended testicles?   Is he reasonably young?  Is he a good example of the breed?  Has he achieved success as a working gundog or in field trials or in the show ring? Do you know what diseases affect his breed? Has he been tested for hereditary diseases or DNA tested clear?  Many diseases affect several spaniel breeds eye diseases MRD, GPRA, (about £25 annually) PRA Cord 1 (about £50),Gonioscopy (about £33) or DNA tested for canine fucosidosis or is he hereditarily clear? (about £75) Has he been scored for hip dysplasia? (about £100) Springers, Cavaliers, Clumbers, Welsh Springers, Field, Sussex and Cockers are all spaniel breeds affected. For Cavaliers has he been specialist tested for SM or MVD? 
Have you had some experience of a mating?  If not, do you have an experienced acquaintance you can call on for assistance?  Has the dog been trained with bitches so he is not over enthusiastic or tries to mount the bitches head?

Paperwork
Make sure you have the necessary Kennel Club form for registration of a litter where you will be obliged to fill in your dog’s name and registration details, the date of the mating and your signature in the boxes provided. You will also need to provide a copy of your dog’s pedigree and health certificates and a written receipt for any monies agreed.  Remember you may have to declare any sum received as income for tax purposes. Supply a photograph of your dog so that the bitch owner can show it to prospective puppy buyers.

Be Prepared
Keep your dog’s pedigree handy should you get an enquiry.

The bitch owner will want to know how your dog is bred
and whether he is an outcross or line bred to her bitch.
You have the right to refuse your dog’s services if you feel
that the bitch is not of the required standard. It would be
advisable to see her before the planned mating.

Decide on your stud fee, whether you are prepared to offer more than one mating and whether you are prepared to offer a free return mating if this one is unsuccessful. Be
realistic. Occasionally a stud fee can be the price of an 8-
week old puppy. Normally it is less than half of this even for a champion dog.  You can opt for a one-off fee OR
a service fee and an additional fee per surviving puppy from the resulting litter OR a puppy in lieu of stud fee.
Whichever you choose, make this plain from the start and prepare paperwork so you have this in writing for the bitch
owner to agree to BEFORE the mating.  If your dog is not proven, you may like to consider this fact when deciding on the level of fee involved.

Make sure your helper will be available to assist on the day. Dogs have been damaged by their owner’s mistaken belief that the pair can just be left alone to “get on with it” – they can’t!!  Your dog could be seriously injured by a bitch that panics.


Mating
It is up to the bitch owner to bring her to you when she is ready for mating – usually between 11-14 days into her season.  Read a good book on the actual mating procedure but be aware that a successful tie is not always possible and that the bitch may have to return at a later date.  Decide in advance where you expect the mating to take place – inside or outside, ensure a non-slip surface and some cover for both you and the dogs.  Small breeds may be better on an elevated surface or table. .Remember also that not all bitches are quiet and agreeable during mating and that your dog may not enjoy it either!  Two people present are essential to support or steady the pair and ensure the stud dog is not hurt.  Assuming that you have a successful mating, and a good tie (see pic below anywhere from 10 minutes to over an hour), check your dog and put him in a quiet place away from the bitch in question.

Offer the bitch owner a cup of tea – you will both need one!
 
Hand over the necessary paperwork. Remember to put in writing any other agreement made between you and the owner of the bitch, ie a puppy in lieu of stud fee, and ensure you both have a copy.  Take your stud fee at this point and provide a receipt.  In due course the bitch owner will advise you whether there is a successful pregnancy and of the eventual arrival of the puppies.

Remember that if there is any fault in the resulting litter your dog’s reputation will be at risk.  Think carefully before allowing him to be used on an inferior bitch.

Are you ready for all of that?   That presumes of course that your dog is not firing blanks!   ;)
 

Spaniels In Need

Offline fifer

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 03:30:31 PM »
Ooops forgot to say that the number of cockers we take for rehab/rescue is steadily and sadly rising. :shades:
Spaniels In Need

Offline mcphee

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 03:43:14 PM »
What an interesting and sensible thread. Thank you Fifer. As someone who has the result of an inappropriate (although checked) choice of sire, may I endorse everything you say. Although all the books I bought and read could not prepare me for life with my darling, I do remember all of them saying that a cocker is not considered mature til 3,(that's 4 for Rufus) and that was the ideal age for a stud dog. Thank DOG I had Rufus neutered the idea of him having got the taste on top of all his other issues would have been a nightmare. I hope you think again Ando. A whole litter of cocker spaniels was allegedly handed to a rescue this spring (on the local news). I am busy trying to dissuade my friend from breeding Rufus's girlfriend.

Offline jann

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2009, 04:01:53 PM »
Ando, please don't even think about it !!!!  >:(

Offline Sue67

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2009, 04:03:25 PM »
I bet you wished you'd never asked!

Don't think everybody's having a dig, we all care passionatly about our cockers but that also includes the breed in general.


Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 08:11:54 PM »
you have come to the right place to ask

So

DON'T DO IT LEAVE IT TO THE EXPERTS - please

best wishes
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Offline Ando

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 09:02:53 PM »

Thanks to all your feed back.. Of course i will have all health checks done. I have bred from my other cocker bitch who has had all health checks done already & she is clear. I am professional but wanted advise on possibly owning my own stud dog. Like all dog lovers or breeders.... We have to start off some where.

Pro's & Cond's of owning your own stud dog?



Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 09:06:03 PM »
Can I ask if its working or show strain you own?

Also how have they proved them self in the field/ring?

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 09:12:57 PM »

Thanks to all your feed back.. Of course i will have all health checks done. I have bred from my other cocker bitch who has had all health checks done already & she is clear. I am professional but wanted advise on possibly owning my own stud dog. Like all dog lovers or breeders.... We have to start off some where.

Pro's & Cond's of owning your own stud dog?


If you have bred before, then would the owners of the stud dogs you have used be happy to advise you?

Because there is no guarantee that a male puppy you buy will be suitable for stud, I assume you are looking for an adult dog which has already proved himself in the showring or in another discipline?  :huh:  Won't it be difficult to find a male dog suitable to stud that is genetically/temperamentally compatible with your bitch and happens to be for sale?  :huh:
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Offline bluegirl

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Re: Mating male dogs..
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 09:56:07 PM »
Financially its probably not a good idea to keep a stud dog unless he is of proven quality and is desirable to other people. You can only mate him a certain number of times with the girls you have (maybe only once if things turn out wrong), you can't mate him with any offspring they have but then you have him for life and as others have said keeping him away from your girls each season will be a nightmare.

You would be better paying the stud fee and having the choice of who to have. 
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