advice on breeding

[Loudon]

My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.

The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)

Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.

[JohnW]

eory

My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.

The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)

Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.

Type A is a wonderful; thought but only text book theory

My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.

The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)

Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.

Lovely idea and typical of text book theory which differs from practice, only problem is not enough tested dogs and shrinking gene pool, you will need B dogs for a long time to maintain 'COI' I think, it has been mentioned on here before, like I said before breeding is not black and white and not just about clear dogs, unfortunately the best dogs in the breed are sometimes genetically faulted! 'sorry but cant think of a better word'. I don't think perfect Eugenics will ever be achieved or should be in the grand scheme.

[Jane S]

I dont think I have said anything to disagree with you Jane  , and as far as the comment about being shot at Dawn, as public forums go you will get a wide spectrum of replies and sometimes to either extreem I guess   .... Sorry I may have been misunderstood but while I am aware of the affected dog I dont know if he is still being used for stud but I dont think I actually said he was being used I simply referred to myself having no problem if he was, I suppose if a dam owner admired him enough to use him as you say he would have to be a fantastic dog, he may be in the eye of the beholder   ....  as long as an affected dog is ONLY put to a clear was something else I also said so maybe we are in agreement   ....

It was the way you worded your post that implied the dog was still being used - you said "as long as he was and is only put to clear girls" so that's why I thought you meant he was currently at stud because you said "is". I wasn't disagreeing with you anyway - just responding to your belief you would be "shot at dawn" for mentioning it as if we can't discuss this kind of thing on COL when we've had numerous perfectly reasonable discussions on this subject and so far nobody's been marched off to a firing squad

[Helen]

I am very pleased to hear your considering another pup there Helen    Good luck and lets hope your second dog is just as nice as Jarvis .. I am not aware of the lines on the WC pro health Kennels as I didnt realise they published the lines their dogs came from    but I can only guess many of the members who advertise and choose not to advertise on that health society site probably have dogs from a wide range of different lines   But I do agree with you on the importance of good sound lines ....

I'm always considering John    I just need the right time and to wear the OH down 

They don't publish the lines, I do my own research as I'm sure you do - it becomes very clear what you like and dislike after a while doesn't it 

Jane - I worded my comment about the PRA stud wrongly -  no longer at stud 

[JohnW]

The power of the word Jane 

And I couldnt agree with you more Helen on research ..... very important and always interesting, you never know what you may discover 

Anyway Apologies to the OP as I have taken the original question of track a wee bit 

[Loudon]

eory

My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.

The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)

Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.

Type A is a wonderful; thought but only text book theory

My Show cocker that I do on occasion show has a very well known show champ in her pedigree and he is a Pra affected dog by all accounts.... But again having read about him and his owner and spoken to his owner I am quite comfortable that he brought alot of attributes needed to maintain the breed and as long as he was and is only put to clear girls I have no problem with that, again common sence I suppose but I would guess I will be shot at dawn by alot of Coliers for even daring to mention it.

The whole point of DNA tests is that they enable breeders to make educated choices and select against producing affected puppies and eventually work towards eliminating the defective genes - this does not mean that Carriers should all be immediately eliminated from the gene pool (that really would be throwing the baby out with the bath water!)

Yes, absolutely. There is a beautiful written argument on testing by Eugene Phoa in the 2005 edition of The Cocker Spaniel Year Book. I don't suppose I can replicate without permission but I would recommend any interested COL members to get a copy and read another perspective to only breeding from Type A dogs.

Lovely idea and typical of text book theory which differs from practice, only problem is not enough tested dogs and shrinking gene pool, you will need B dogs for a long time to maintain 'COI' I think, it has been mentioned on here before, like I said before breeding is not black and white and not just about clear dogs, unfortunately the best dogs in the breed are sometimes genetically faulted! 'sorry but cant think of a better word'. I don't think perfect Eugenics will ever be achieved or should be in the grand scheme.

John, I'm of track hear, apologies. Raven looks like a show type on the small picture. Is that right?  Have you any more pics of him out picking up game? Brill pic. If he is show type would it be possible to know his lines?

[JohnW]

No Raven is FULL working cocker Loudon (Sorry dont know your name), I bred him, his working lines beyond that are not common his mother Willow is out of the Lambton Estate in county Durham and her pedigree is either mostly hard working dogs from the gamekeeper there and also goes back to old Scottish working lines. I think there are several pics of him on Working cockers pics on this site. Or click onto my website link on my profile. I also own Ravens dad who is from the what many would call the usual suspects in working lines he goes back through danderw druid etc etc etc .... nothing special as far as pedigrees go but still very nice and a very special dog to me   And cracking agility competitor hopefully not far off competing in Championship classes  .

There are several show cocker owners who do work there dogs on here, if that what interests you. My Show cockers unfortunatley dont work although they do manage to keep up with the workers   If you wanna know anymore please feel free to PM me  

[nicklisa59]

If you are thinking of breeding first be aware its not cheep and may cost you a lot of money if things go wrong..
Ensure the personality of the dog and bitch and ensure the dog is PRA and FN clear, if not don't use him, a quality stud dog will cost you anything from £400 to use.
Go back to the breeder you got your dog from if you are happy, they should give you advice.
Speak to your vet again they will help and buy a book we used 'the book of the bitch' we found it very good for advice.

[Sharon]

I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?

We're still breeding occasionally and there are things I love about breeding and things I absolutely hate sometimes.The worst things are dealing with the stress and anxiety when a bitch is about to whelp (once you have experienced disastrous pregnancies and whelpings as most breeders will do at some stage, you are always worried it will happen again) and then for the first few weeks of a litter's life (newborn pups do not always survive for one reason or another - one of the reasons I cringe at breeders allowing people to visit new born litters and select their pups at a few days old). Then there's dealing with potential buyers who tell you lies or turn out not to be nice people after all (this happens more often than you might think) and so on...  

Agree completely with this line, after experiencing it end of last year!! 

[LynneB]

I just wondered what made you start out into breeding and what has made you keep going, is it the same love for your dogs and showing that I have or is it something else that I am missing?

We're still breeding occasionally and there are things I love about breeding and things I absolutely hate sometimes.The worst things are dealing with the stress and anxiety when a bitch is about to whelp (once you have experienced disastrous pregnancies and whelpings as most breeders will do at some stage, you are always worried it will happen again) and then for the first few weeks of a litter's life (newborn pups do not always survive for one reason or another - one of the reasons I cringe at breeders allowing people to visit new born litters and select their pups at a few days old). Then there's dealing with potential buyers who tell you lies or turn out not to be nice people after all (this happens more often than you might think) and so on...  

Agree completely with this line, after experiencing it end of last year!!  

Then there's the timewasters 13 at the last count for this litter. 45 minutes on the phone, only to find out that the lady's OH did not even want a dog

[Cayley]

We find that for every 5 enquiries you get 1 may be suitable  .

[FancyNancy]

breedings hard work but i find it a thoroughly lovely thing to do and i do enjoy it. I also accidentally fell into showing and so followed breeding and i have had some wonderful mentors in schnauzers and have already had some lovely help from people in cockers