Author Topic: Hygiene and Raw Food  (Read 5972 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MortysMum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Hygiene and Raw Food
« on: May 18, 2018, 11:44:36 AM »
Hello, I will be getting a Cocker Spaniel puppy in a few weeks and have been reading about the raw food diet.  It seems like a good idea to me. I am especially convinced by the fact that a morning meal of bones and meat will keep this puppy occupied in the morning while I work in my studio.  I spoke with a friend and fellow Cocker Spaniel owner who fed her previous dog on raw food and she warned me that it can be pretty messy.  I had been envisioning him gnawing away happily next to me while I work, but now I am wondering how realistic that is.  My friend cordoned off an easily cleanable floor area in her kitchen for this purpose, not something I can easily do in the studio.  How do other raw food folk deal with hygiene?  Do people feed their dogs in their kennels?  Out in the back garden?  Are certain raw meets/bones conducive to slightly tidier eating?  Curious to hear comments, ideas, solutions!
- Morty's Mum (soon to be)

Offline ejp

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6891
  • Gender: Female
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 09:19:57 PM »
Daisy is on RAW, and to me, it is no different than prepping meat for human dinner, in fact I would say it is easier as I buy it ready minced and mixed.  All I am really doing it putting the correct amount in a bowl.  I do the same as I would when cleaning up after getting our own food ready.

Offline phoenix

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 11:17:21 AM »
You need to do a bit of homework into different meanings of a raw diet . Many folk buy a pre packed balanced meal in a frozen pack, like Natures Menu.   No mess.   Some make their own mince, offal, veg + mineral supplements  like I used to, again no mess. Others go for chicken wings or carcasses  which is messy, especially on the floor and ears.  On the Facebook raw food site there are good suggestions,  and a useful chart of ingredients and ratios,  but there are a lot of posts from macho owners boasting about the lumps of carcasses and bones that their equally  macho  dogs chomp through. Ignore them!

A raw marrow bone is a good occupation for any dog, but preferably outside! If you are working from home, you could fence off a doggy area for food, widdles and safe play.  It's what everyone else does with a kitchen or utility room.   A good size crate would be very useful for feeding and snoozing.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline phoenix

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 12:55:29 PM »
I must add that I stopped Raw feeding because I now have very young grandchildren visiting all the time. I don't want to be blamed for any food source illnesses, like campylobacter, even though the chances are low.  Worming and flea control keeps my conscience clear too.  Do you have family that will be all over Monty?
You could cover a floor area with a mat, cardboard or cheap offcut vinyl.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline elaine.e

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11029
  • Gender: Female
  • Sweet William
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 05:01:30 PM »
I'm a raw feeder and my two sometimes have prepared minces from Natural Instinct or other well known suppliers and sometimes chunks of meat from the supermarket. All of those are fed in their food bowls and they eat them immediately.

If they have bones they have them outside on the patio, where I can spray with a disinfectant spray afterwards. I don't worry hugely about bacteria because most UK raw dog food comes from DEFRA licenced suppliers and they have to meet certain standards of hygiene and testing in order to be licenced. In the house I just follow the normal procedures of hygiene and washing things separately, washing my hands thoroughly etc. that I would do if handling and preparing raw meat before cooking it for us.

Offline bizzylizzy

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4504
  • Gender: Female
  • 🙂 Jayne
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2018, 05:31:39 PM »
I'm a raw feeder and my two sometimes have prepared minces from Natural Instinct or other well known suppliers and sometimes chunks of meat from the supermarket. All of those are fed in their food bowls and they eat them immediately.

If they have bones they have them outside on the patio, where I can spray with a disinfectant spray afterwards. I don't worry hugely about bacteria because most UK raw dog food comes from DEFRA licenced suppliers and they have to meet certain standards of hygiene and testing in order to be licenced. In the house I just follow the normal procedures of hygiene and washing things separately, washing my hands thoroughly etc. that I would do if handling and preparing raw meat before cooking it for us.

I DIY it. I mix enough for about 3 weeks and freeze daily portions, so I‘m only really  handling it once every 3 weeks and I usually go over the work with a disinfectant spray after I‘ve handled any raw meat, (either  for the dog  or for us),  rest of the time it goes straight from the tupperware to the bowl. I wash the feeding bowl as soon as he‘s finished with a separate dish cloth. Humphrey doesn‘t get  any raw bones other than chicken wings which I chop in half and put in his bowl. We‘ve never had any problems so far, - I do use a high narrow bowl to keep the ears from getting covered in food. 😉

Offline Patp

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3617
  • Gender: Female
  • Jinley
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 04:08:31 PM »
I am a raw feeder too and have probably had more sickness problems in my lifetime from eating cooked food than I have from preparing raw food for my dog.

Its all about common sense and I also feed a mixture of prepared raw frozen foods for convenience and raw meat / bones / carcasses / whole fish etc etc.  Its all about balance and not as scary or intimidating as it initially appears.

You could easily pre prepare the days meals and put them into containers in the fridge.

A wipeable disposable tablecloth or table protector, you can buy it on the roll at Dunelm would be useful on the floor for a place that you puppy will get used to taking her bones to and having her food bowls on.

The bones you envisage your dog eating are classed as recreational bones (i.e. they dont form part of the diet but are to pass time), they are also good for cleaning teeth.  You will find these lovely bones filled with marrow at a local traditional butchers shop.  Dont give ones that are cooked that you can buy from the pet shop as they are dangerous.  They will keep your pup entertained for ages.



Offline MortysMum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 10:22:21 AM »
Thank you, all of you, for your tips!  I read Give your Dog a Bone by Ian Billinghurst, so I'm going to start with what he suggests as it intersects with what is readily and cheaply available to buy: chicken necks and cut up carcass pieces prepared for dogs from the market, along with chicken organs, Brewer's yeast and seaweed, eggs, yoghurt, and ground up vegetables and fruits, from our own raw peelings from dinner (blended).  Didn't occur to me that I could get ground meat, which makes sense to throw into the mix for ease of eating. 

Quote
The bones you envisage your dog eating are classed as recreational bones (i.e. they dont form part of the diet but are to pass time), they are also good for cleaning teeth.  You will find these lovely bones filled with marrow at a local traditional butchers shop.  Dont give ones that are cooked that you can buy from the pet shop as they are dangerous.  They will keep your pup entertained for ages.

I gather these are more like the leg bone from a lamb or cow?  Do I understand correctly that the small bone and cartilage from a chicken would be totally consumed by Morty while the larger bones with marrow (bought from butcher) would be recreational in the sense that they don't get totally consumed?  What are the best animals and cuts to ask for for recreational bones for a 15 week Cocker?

Freezing in portions, plastic table cloth, ear-free bowl - great ideas, thanks!  Also, fish - great idea.  Probably easy to get heads and offcuts from the market. 

I've been preparing chicken stomachs, livers and hearts, chopped into small pieces with scissors, quickly blanched (1 minute) in boiling water then on lowest setting in oven for 4 hours, then frozen in little baggies.  The idea here is to use these for training.  So far they are working really well with my friend's beautiful cocker who suddenly loves me and my home:)  My only question here is: because I have blanched and dried these pieces, do they have less nutritional value?  Should I not rely on these treats as part of a valid "meal" for Morty as I am training him?

I do have kids in the house, 12 and 7.  I will teach them good hygiene around raw meat (good lesson to learn anyway).  I guess I'll just have to see how it goes once he's here.  Good to know there are intermediate ready-made products available in case I have to modify my plan with kids around.

I gather I will learn all of this from the vet once I have Morty, but is the de-worming and de-flea-ing (and tick control?) a pretty standard vet protocol anyway or is there something particular I should be communicating with the vet because of the raw food diet?

Again, thanks to all of you for the feedback.  Nice to know I can ask for advice.  This is going to be an adventure!

Offline bizzylizzy

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4504
  • Gender: Female
  • 🙂 Jayne
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 03:07:46 PM »
Not all vets are enthusiastic about feeding raw (for various reasons but don‘t let that put you off  ;) ), so its a good idea to do your own research aswell. I‘ve been a bit unlucky with bones, both times because they weren‘t suitable, so I wouldn‘t offer any advice there only to say that don‘t rely necessarily on the food supplier -I was sold oxtails as they were apparantly good, Humphrey broke a piece off which got stuck in his throat and I was strongly reprimanded by my vet!! And also never leave your dog unattended with a bone (another mistake I made! >:() There are lots of others on here that do feed bones though with no problems.
Worm, flea treatment etc is a subject that always gives rise to debate. I take a poo sample to the vet every now and again and have it tested for worms, only if its positive would I give him de-worming treatment. The worm treatment won‘t prevent parasites, so theoretically you could treat one day and the next day they pick them up, so it seems pointless to me, plus the treatment itself is quite aggresive. Since feeding raw, Humphrey‘s never had worms or any internal parasites. There are lots of natural things you can mix in with the food that will help keep them at bay, garlic, coconut oil, dessicated cocobut, grated carrot, ground pumpkin seed etc etc. I‘ve never used flea treatment as none of my dogs have ever had fleas but maybe we‘ve just been lucky. Tick control is my biggest problem, I don‘t like any of the conventional treatments available (collar, tablets, spot-ons) as I’m not convinced how safe they really are but but none of the alternative natural things seem to work and I‘m picking on average 3 - 4 ticks off Humphrey every day  >:D I‘m torn between the devil and the deep blue sea, I honestly  think its a personal (difficult) decision only you can make!
Yes, it will be an adventure but its so worth it and with all the advice and help you‘ll get on here it makes it all a lot easier, I was very nervous about it all but got so much support on here I‘ve become a lot more confident and after 2 years have never looked back! Best of luck!

Offline Patp

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3617
  • Gender: Female
  • Jinley
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2018, 05:14:24 PM »
Sounds like you are doing lots of research so well done!  Just other things to add.  Only introduce one meat at a time eg chicken for a couple of weeks then say add lamb etc etc.  Leave offal for at least the first month as it is very rich. Tripe is probably the best thing you can feed (you can buy it freeflow from Pets at Home  :020: :020:) that provides most of the vits and minerals your dog will need.  Personally I have never fed fruit, veg (except for the odd sunday lunch leftovers) or given brewers yeast as all of these cause yeast problems with ears etc.  But some raw feeders do - its a matter of choice and tolerance.  Whole sprats from Tesco (freeze for a couple of weeks first) are also a great food source.

To start with give a chicken wing every other day for one meal when you can supervise them and plain chicken or turkey for his other meals.  I used to put the wings in a plastic food bag and bash up the bones inside with my rolling pin so it broke them down. 

You will become an expert poo watcher!  Too hard poos = too much bone, although my lovely vet has always said "you can kick a good poo"!!

Later you can introduce lamb ribs to replace the chicken wings on occasional days, but if your pup is getting through his recreation bones (yes leg bones, mainly beef) you may need to cut back.  A can of sardines in spring water or olive oil can be fed to get them going again.

I also am not a slave to balancing every meal but give a variety over about a 2 week period.  I also add Kronch Oil.  You will also think at times that you are paying more attention to your puppies meals than your own children - I know I did!!  My OH also comes in at times and opens the fridge saying "ooh we have lamb" lol I reply that it is Jinleys dinner!!!

Whatever you choose for raw food, you are giving your puppy the best start for a healthy life.  x



Offline MortysMum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2018, 10:06:03 AM »
Patp, great tips, thanks!  Even the poo consistency info is useful. (what has become of me?)

Had to look up Tripe and then figure out what it is in Dutch (Pens, by the way).  Our family is mostly vegetarian so this is a crash course in body parts of edible animals in two languages.

My husband has already commented that I never made pickled garlic for him:)

About the offal:  I was really planning on using it to train Morty from the start at 16 weeks.  I prepared dried chicken stomach, heart and liver.  Is the stomach, perhaps, less rich and better to start with for training?  I've cut this stuff into 5 - 6 little pieces/organ so he would get a good 10 - 15 pieces (3-4 whole organs) a day for training, say 5 times a week.  If it is too rich, what symptoms would I notice?  Poo details or bad digestion?  Maybe I should start the training with cold cut chicken pieces or something?

Anyway, I'm sure I'll answer many of my own questions with experience once Morty actually arrives and starts eating and pooing!

Thanks,
Morty's Mum.

Offline Patp

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3617
  • Gender: Female
  • Jinley
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2018, 10:01:39 AM »
Aaah tripe!  Yes make sure it is green tripe not bleached for human consumption.  We buy it here frozen from pet shops and it absolutely stinks, but you do get used to it.

I used to use high value hot dog sausages or cooked chicken for treats when training (although I use training in a loose way  :shades: :shades:).  You can also make liver cake which is a mixture of liver, eggs, garlic and flour all blitzed in the food processor before being cooked in the oven then cubed.  The recipe will be on here somewhere if you search for it.

Too much offal will cause runny poos.  Personally I would keep to cooked chicken to start with (you can boil it and feed the liqueur or freeze in ice cube trays to give when weather is hot) or even odd cubes of cheese.  That way you will know if there is anything your puppy is sensitive to.

Once you have been on poultry for a couple of weeks with no reaction, add lamb and so on until you get a full variety over a couple of weeks.  Remember any game / fish should be frozen for 2 weeks to kill any parasites that may be present.  Green tripe in small amounts (say a few grams a day) can be given quite early as gentle on tummies.




Offline bizzylizzy

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4504
  • Gender: Female
  • 🙂 Jayne
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2018, 01:35:35 PM »
the liver  cake PatP mentioned is great for  training, Humphrey’d do handstands for it!  :lol2: I cut it into tiny cubes and open freeze it, you can then bag it when its frozen so it doesn‘t stick together and  take a small handful out at a time.

Offline MortysMum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 01:28:23 PM »
Well, we have our puppy!  And of course he is the smartest, most beautiful dog in the whole world:)
I took him to the vet and got a very paternalistic lecture about dog food.  Hill's was the vet's recommendation.  He has been eating Royal Canin since I got him. 
The vet's only arguments were hygiene around children and the risk of not giving him the proper vitamins and minerals but he wasn't going to give an inch or consider any middle of the road possibilities.  I phoned another vet who gave me the same talk. 
Now, of course, I'm doubting everything. I've been continuing to feed him RC which he loves, though he has been getting quite a lot of exciting treats in order to acclimatize him and train him (chicken, cheese, tiny cooked chicken organ pieces, bone with marrow from a cow). 
Should I just give it a month or so while we all get used to this and then re-think the raw food thing for when he gets a bit older?  Maybe in the meantime, slowly transition him to Arcana?
What confuses me the most is that the vet's argument (and also the arguments from this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/   ) speak mostly of salmonella, which I thought was only a risk with chicken.  But neither the vet nor this article seems to differentiate between types of raw meats.  No one mentioned bones, even the big cow ones that they gnaw on.  So do the arguments of the vet and this article hold when we give our dogs cow bones with marrow? (Cause Morty loves his bone and there is no way I'm taking it away from him!)
I was warned that this would happen at the vets but I didn't realize that dog food choices were so polarized. 
- Morty'smum

Offline its.sme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
  • Gender: Female
  • Not trained to the Gun, just trained to my Mum x
Re: Hygiene and Raw Food
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2018, 02:47:18 PM »
Hi MortysMum,

Dog food is no longer just a simple case of picking it up of the supermarket's shelf,

The best thing I can say is do your research, Raw feeding can be as simple as defrosting,weighing out and watching it disappear   :005: or you can go down the DIY route where a little more reading and understanding of nutrition is needed.

You will always find an argument for and against Raw feeding but at the end of the day it is down to personal choice, he is your dog and as long as he is happy and healthy then you are doing the right thing.

There are of corse very good Kibbles out there and you could even Home cook for him.

I believe there are Facebook groups to help you and plenty of advise as always on here.

Good luck,

Sharon.