CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: hoover on November 25, 2015, 02:50:58 PM
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Hi there, I'm new to this forum but wanted to get some advice on my 18 week old cocker spaniel Ollie. Ollie is an attentive and intelligent boy who learns quickly, is good with other dogs and other people, but who has tended to get a bit cheeky with myself and my partner at times in terms of pushing boundaries and being more mouthy than he should be at this age - when excited he takes to lunging and snapping at us to get a response; we squeak loudly to show he is hurting us, tell him firmly 'No', ignore the behaviour as best we can and then if it continues we carry him to his crate for a few mins time out. More recently he has taken to resource guarding especially prized bones; he growls and if you even say his name from the other side of the room, or walk by him he barks aggressively. This came to a bit of a head yesterday when he lunged for arm as I sat 1 meter away from him in a bid to try to desensitize him to our presence at these times. He bit down hard and I responded by telling him 'No' and moving him away from his bone..I tried to take him through to his crate for time out but he went into a complete frenzy of barking and lunging for me and there was little I could safely do. I moved slowly away from him and he went back to his bone. I'm really kind of devastated by what happened - I didn't know that he had it within him to respond so aggressively. I'm obviously going to ensure he doesn't get this kind of bone again as he gets so worked up about it, but I'm just wondering what I should have done differently then, or what I should do in the future should a similar scenario arise. At the time I felt I had to take him away as a sign I would not tolerate his bad behaviour of biting me and to show him that this sort of behaviour would not 'work for him', but of course this set him off even more. And then when I had to move away after his frenzied response I feel like he has 'learned' from this that he can act like that to get what he wants (of course he went back to the bone) and that this is what he can do in the future. We have already tried the swapping valued treats for a handle of the bone method, and this worked previously, but things just got way out of hand so suddenly yesterday.
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Can be shocking. We've had four spaniels now and the third was the fiercest, pushiest pup ever. We learned quickly we didn't play games in the house to excite him, didn't give treats. Kept it really calm. Visiting children were not allowed to run and shriek. But we walked him longer when out. Luckily once we got him into search exercises out in the garden he seemed to gradually get over it. I would say no food in the house apart from meals. No valued possessions he can guard like toys or bones. You can try feeding him by holding the bowl while he eats and taking it as soon as he's finished - but not taking away and giving back which I've heard some people do. Makes them more anxious in my experience.
He is very young. But it's not a quick fix...which is why the little cross breed we took off death row two years ago (yup for resource guarding) still eats his meals in the summer house, has no toys and has a bed that is put down last thing at night and taken up in the morning. But then he'd had several years of bad stuff happening to him before. And our third cocker grew up to be a model citizen!
Lots of trainers seem to think resource guarding is about dominance. In my experience it's can be about a dog's uncertainty and even fear.
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Don't forget a short houseline so you can control him as necessary. Beau is also guarder, it started all at once at about 6 months old with a soft toy. Anything he values is a potential problem, whether it be a bone, toy or sofa place (but strangely not his food), so its easier to just do without.
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You will get good advice from others with resource guarders, don't be too shocked or upset with Ollie there are lots of ways of managing it.
Ben as a young dog started to resource guard certain highly prized food e.g. bones or some treats - simple answer we didn't buy them and there was no other issues he doesn't guard objects so have never had a problem since and he is 12 now.
Harry came as a rescue who already had guarding issues with food and some objects like socks or toys. We are careful what we give him, don't leave toys on the floor just get them out to play and put them away after. If he picks up a sock or slipper etc and starts to get possessive we have a lovely trick of one of us opening the fridge and getting out some cheese, completely ignoring Harry and calling Ben for a treat, nearly always works, my cockers love our fridge :luv: We then just remove the object once he is out of sight and although he will look for it briefly when he gets back he is not too bothered.
We never interfere or go near Harry when he is eating so he doesn't feel under pressure and he is fed well away form Ben.
I know a few others on here have had more serious guarding issues so will be able to offer advice as well.
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My 1st cocker would be like this at this age and while she was still learning I decided not to give her the high value treats like bones until she was older and steadier and listening to me more and I worked on challenges that were easier to solve therefore not setting her up to fail so I could work on this in a less frenzied environment with lower value items. Practise makes perfect as well so rather than wait till certain behaviours appear work on them as if they are already there
Re this " being more mouthy than he should be at this age " - all dogs are different so deal with it rather than thinking in terms of this dog has worse behaviour than he should
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Thanks so much for all your replies. Yes, I did find it rather shocking when it happened. I think from reading the replies and other threads that I found in this forum that we're just going to have to work really hard on this and accept it may be part of Ollie's disposition - something to be managed and contained rather than expecting it to be easily thwarted. Previously I had wanted to apply a very strict behaviourist / conditioning perspective to this - be clear about unacceptable behaviour and make it an unrewarding thing to do and they won't do it (and praise as soon as they stop or do anything that is more acceptable), but it seems like that it might not be so simple with this behaviour.
He relishes exercise and gets lots of it and we take him tramping through the bushes so that he can sniff around to his heart's content. He also gets lots of activities in the house; we leave scent trails for him to find small treats by dragging the treats in elaborate patterns throughout the rooms, and he has kongs and other puzzle toys where he has to work for his food. He's a very smart pup, he's also great with children and vulnerable adults (he has a weekly trip to my granny's nursing home where I take him around the residents and he is superb with them.
I just worry a bit because he is definitely challenging us as owners more in other ways and becoming quite bolshy and using his mouth more when he doesn't get his own way in the home. I really don't want to convey to him that this is acceptable in any way.
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I'm afraid the bolshy behaviour is quite normal for a cockerdile >:D. I found time out the best for this, they do grow out of this....
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He relishes exercise and gets lots of it and we take him tramping through the bushes so that he can sniff around to his heart's content. He also gets lots of activities in the house;
Is it possible that he is getting too much exercise & stimulation for an 18 week pup and that is making him tired? I found with all mine at this age - whether cocker or not that they were at their naughtiest when tired and usually a good sleep certainly helped.
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He relishes exercise and gets lots of it and we take him tramping through the bushes so that he can sniff around to his heart's content. He also gets lots of activities in the house;
Is it possible that he is getting too much exercise & stimulation for an 18 week pup and that is making him tired? I found with all mine at this age - whether cocker or not that they were at their naughtiest when tired and usually a good sleep certainly helped.
Yes, I guess that is possible.. we are trying to keep him occupied so that he doesn't wreak havoc about the place - when up and about he has to be monitored constantly otherwise he is chewing furniture or plants or attempting to jump on top of them or pulling cables out of walls or books our of shelves or something or other..so we give him something to do to keep him focussed and mentally stimulated in other ways (the bone was part of that strategy as he can happily gnaw away for an hour). Maybe we need to promote more calm time somehow. He does get decent sleeps in his crate but I don't like to leave him there when he is wide awake.
We've taken up all his toys now and just give him 2 or 3 at a time to play with, which he has to sit to receive. He doesn't seem to be guarding them or his food, it's mostly just highly prized bones, or things he finds and we want back! Which is the worst, because when out at parks of course we really want him to drop things we don't know might be dangerous for him, and he senses this and holds onto them even more! Trying to exchange a treat sometimes works but sometimes is disasterous as he quickly gulps whatever is in his mouth to get the treat!
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:005: Sorry but I do remember what it's like living with the dog version of The Omen! It does get better- unless like me you're an anarchist in which case you learn to love it. One thing we did was beg those really tough cardboard veg boxes from the supermarket. Then in the evening he would happily destroy it leaving a sort of tickertape welcome in a thousand bits that we swept into the woodburner. He used to get really excited starting a new box. They took him through the whole of puppy teething.
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Having had 3 cockers myself and a further 3 in my immediate family, only one of whom (Archie :luv:) is a resource guarder, I would say that normal cockerdile puppy behaviour is really not the same as real resource guarding. The description from the OP does sound like real guarding. Its impossible to say for sure without actually seeing it though. I do appreciate that it's very hard to understand what real resource guarding is like when you have never been on the recieving end of it. Before Archie, I would have been the first to say, oh it's normal, he'll grow out of it etc. but now I know different. ;)
Hoover, I have a (now managed) resource guarder so I really feel for you. It's horrible to see the behaviour in such a young pup and really worrying for you. I don't feel qualified to offer practical advice because I'm no expert. I know what has worked for Archie and I and if you read my earliest posts you will see what I was dealing with and how far we have come. The good news is that it is manageable and with carefull hard work you can have a dog who is as loveable and trusting as my gorgeous rogue. You are right in my experience, to be careful about telling him off. This was definitely the WORST approach with Archie. He is fundamentally a very nervous dog who needed reassurance, not reprimands. Even a raised voice had disasterous results when he was very young. The book "Mine" by Jean Donaldson is a good start to understanding the problem and giving some tips for training. Be warned though, it is a very academic book and quite a tough read. I got quite a lot of advice from my training classes which was really helpful and if you are very concerned then I wouldnt hesitate to contact a qualified (positive, reward based methods only) behaviourist who can help you understand the reasons behind the behaviour and give training strategies to help.
One other thought I have is regarding his trips to the care home. Archie as I say is quite a nervous dog BUT he overcompensates when meeting new people or in new situations so he actually comes across as being very friendly and confident. It could be that Ollie finds these situations a little overwhelming but doesn't react until he is feeling safe and in his own territory at home? I'm not sure if that's possible or not, hopefully someone with a better understanding of dog psychology will be able to put me right! I do remember this article being posted on here and finding it very useful.
http://www.clickertraining.com/dont-socialize-the-dog
Good luck with your little fella.
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Also as cockers are retrievers by nature they will often retrieve more items than another breed might which can put them into conflict more with their owners. Some owners will remove everything the dog gets hold of but sometimes you have to ask do I really need to. One of mine (sprocker) does guard items he's stolen (he's 2 now) and while he does growl he is easily distracted with other things usually a call for biscuits for the whole crew and he's forgotten it was actually a problem.
I find if swapping doesn't work with some dogs a trail of treats works - by throwing them liberally away from them
However, is there any reason why you want to relieve him of his bone - if its a case you want him to have one then why not make sure he has a spot somewhere in peace to eat it rather than trying to take it away from him - may be attempt that challenge later if it is a case of ensuring he is safe to be able to remove bones in the future. Sometimes you have to try one challenge at a time so may be starting low with other thigns 1st then work up to bones.
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I think as many of you are saying it may well be a case of smaller challenges first rather than setting him up to fail. We're trying not to make an issue of things so much today..and when we don't he doesn't either. I think I had it in my head that I should always be in control, that I should always be able to get something from him if I needed to (for safety's sake as much as anything else), and that to do this I had to enforce the rules consistently .. but actually this approach seems to be making things a bigger deal and creating a much larger response from him, so that he is always failing badly, and we are often saying 'No' and resorting to time out. And I could see there was a 'hangover' from this as well - after that very frenzied response to the bone he was twitchy all evening and more growly when I went to touch him, which normally isn't a trigger at all.
He's stll just a young pup, I probably have to rethink my expectations of what he should be capable of, and hope we can manage this effectively if it does turn out to be true resource guarding. I think we'll just have to take things down a notch or several, but I don't feel I can give him this type of bone even if I leave him alone with it - I need to feel confident I can take it from him if he manages to break it into smaller pieces or something. He'll just have to make do with the sofas and chair legs, lol.
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One other thought I have is regarding his trips to the care home. Archie as I say is quite a nervous dog BUT he overcompensates when meeting new people or in new situations so he actually comes across as being very friendly and confident. It could be that Ollie finds these situations a little overwhelming but doesn't react until he is feeling safe and in his own territory at home? I'm not sure if that's possible or not, hopefully someone with a better understanding of dog psychology will be able to put me right! I do remember this article being posted on here and finding it very useful.
http://www.clickertraining.com/dont-socialize-the-dog
Good luck with your little fella.
I dont't think this is the case with Ollie, although I could be wrong..he's really not nervous at all apart from at appropriate times eg. being suddenly surrounded by 4 or 5 large bouncy dogs, and even then he is appropriately trying to make friends and tentatively sniff. Most new situations/ people don't bother him at all and he's very keen to get stuck in and investigate. I always feel like I'm doing a drugs bust with him at the care home, he is a complete sniffer dog and there are so many smells for him there!
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Hi, do you encourage him to bring you things? All things? and not take them away? I've not had a resource guarder, however I very rarely approach my dogs and take things from them. Instead I encourage them to bring me whatever it is that they have. I say 'thank you' if I want what they have and they give it up, but most of the time if I take something from them I give it straight back. so they very rarely feel like I am after them to get something from them. as said I've not had a resource guarder, and all of my dogs will happily bring me high value objects (including bones) to show me as they get loads of praise and don't worry about me taking them away. It is their decision to approach me and come in close rather than me entering their space to take anything from them. May not help, but just my experience.
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Spot on advice from Emilyoliver. Re-thinking my approach to retrieving objects from Archie by asking him to give them to me willingly, rather than me taking them from him was a really important step to getting his guarding under control. If he has something I can see he might guard, but that I don't want him to have, I stay very calm and keep my voice light. I will often tell him he's a good boy or a clever boy for finding whatever it might be and I then walk away. I call him to me (we have a phrase "fetch it for a biscuit"!) and he will bring it to me. Being completely non-confrontational with him is the key.
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Hi, do you encourage him to bring you things? All things? and not take them away? I've not had a resource guarder, however I very rarely approach my dogs and take things from them. Instead I encourage them to bring me whatever it is that they have. I say 'thank you' if I want what they have and they give it up, but most of the time if I take something from them I give it straight back. so they very rarely feel like I am after them to get something from them. as said I've not had a resource guarder, and all of my dogs will happily bring me high value objects (including bones) to show me as they get loads of praise and don't worry about me taking them away. It is their decision to approach me and come in close rather than me entering their space to take anything from them. May not help, but just my experience.
Thank you for this advice - we are going to put it in to practice more. He does get a huge amount of praise for returning a ball, and when he accidentally drops something we want we tell him he's a very clever boy and give him lots of pats...we know he didn't intend to do that, but as it is the result we want it's good for him to feel the positive associations with such an action. His pride in doing something we are pleased about is very visible and we need to capitalise on that sentiment more regularly so he is set up to succeed rather than fail.
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Hi, do you encourage him to bring you things? All things? and not take them away? I've not had a resource guarder, however I very rarely approach my dogs and take things from them. Instead I encourage them to bring me whatever it is that they have. I say 'thank you' if I want what they have and they give it up, but most of the time if I take something from them I give it straight back. so they very rarely feel like I am after them to get something from them. as said I've not had a resource guarder, and all of my dogs will happily bring me high value objects (including bones) to show me as they get loads of praise and don't worry about me taking them away. It is their decision to approach me and come in close rather than me entering their space to take anything from them. May not help, but just my experience.
just clicked the like button, also hold a hard treat like a paddywack and let the dog chew the other end teach the pup your hands are its best friend
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I thought I would give an update on this situation. Ollie is doing better in some respects because we aren't giving this particular bone and we have followed the advice in this thread and don't follow him for things but rather walk away to the 'treat corner' where he brings them anyway, drops them and receives a small treat. It is making it a smaller deal..however when mistakes are made, for instance if my partner forgets that this might happen and reaches for a toy nearby Ollie to move it so that she can sit down he flares up in the same way. I guess it's a question of not forgetting, but naturally my concern is that WE both know this, but not everyone who comes into contact with him can be expected to..this really limits us and how we can leave Ollie with others.. the unpredictability of his reactions means I don't think we can leave him with anyone who doesn't know him well or children (although everything we have seen indicates he is brilliant with children)
This sudden reaction is happening in other areas too... we don't get much warning. For example if we reach down to pick him up and he's not in the mood (although he's all loose, wiggly bum prior which would seem to indicate he's relaxed and happy)he might growl, bark and then bite all within a second - which is not enough for someone reaching for him to recognise that he is warning. Normally I would know..I would see him tense, side eyes and I would know to leave whatever it is for a second, distract him with something else and come back with a treat to re-attempt something. But on these occasions with the prior wiggle bum and the sudden immediate escalation it's impossible to predict. :(
I guess I'm just really worried about something like cocker rage. Which I know is meant to be rarer nowadays, and isn't he, at 4.5 months, too young to be showing signs of this? I thought it was something that occurred a little later in dogs.
He occasionally wears a 'clix no bark collar' when he is very vocal and today, when he reacted with very sudden aggression to being picked up, it vibrated on his bark and he backed down as he doesn't like the vibration setting. This is the first time that this particular scenario has arisen and I am thinking he should wear this collar all the time now, just in case? (Just to point out, he is generally (90% of time) fine with being picked up and I don't want to back away from this altogether as there might be times when this is necessary - for eg, when he was confronted by 14 chihuahuas recently)
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Don't worry about cocker rage, what you are seeing is nothing like that at all. I'm not best qualified to help you with your issues but I do know that it is not cocker rage.
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Just wondering why the bark collar? Surely it will make him more reactive to situations in a negative way?
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Just wondering why the bark collar? Surely it will make him more reactive to situations in a negative way?
I'm thinking the same. Anti bark devices don't fix the underlying problem of why a dog is barking. They may give a quick fix, but they're likely to cause the dog a huge amount of frustration because his method of communicating with the world has been stopped. Dogs bark for a reason, and if you can identify the trigger or triggers that start the barking you can then work out ways to stop or minimise the need for barking.
As an example, if it's because he becomes over excited when he's playing, learn to recognise the signs and stop the playing before he goes over the top and give him time to calm down. If he barks for attention in the house (I've had a couple do that when they were puppies) try totally ignoring him and just walk out of the room. No eye contact, no telling him off or speaking to him, just walk out until he stops barking. Come back in when he's stopped and carry on as normal. You can also praise him quietly every time he's quiet and settled in the house so he learns that being quiet and calm is rewarding. It's all too easy to ignore them when they're finally quiet and all we want to do is enjoy the peace! Take a few seconds to praise that quietness.
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Please don't worry about rage. Yes, it exists (and in other breeds too) but it's extremely rare and your boy isn't showing any signs of it. He's a resource guarder, as you already know, and that's an entirely separate issue.
Back in the 1980s "Cocker Rage" was very high profile. My first Cocker, born in 1987, was a gold show type male, bought from a good breeder. When he was a puppy I had so many people come up to me and tell me that I shouldn't have bought him because he was male and golden and would have rage that I became really worried. He was a sweetheart as it happens and the worst you could say about him was that he was reluctant to give toys back and would walk away with them.
Back then, Cockers were already a breed of choice for puppy farmers and they seem to have been the principle source of badly bred Cockers with temperament problems, including some, typically red or golden and males, that had what came to be called Cocker Rage. A dog with rage will typically be asleep or resting and will then get up and attack without warning. Afterwards the dog will often appear dazed and bewildered and seemingly not to know what has happened.
It's extremely rare nowadays because it's largely been bred out of the breed. It's also thought that it may be similar to epilepsy because of the way it manifests itself and the dazed behaviour of the dog afterwards. The saddest thing is that many dogs have been mislabelled over the years by owners, vets and behaviourists and have been put down when in fact they had behavioural problems that could probably have been sorted out.
http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/rage_syndrome.htm
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Thanks Elaine - Humphrey has also starting the barking for attention or because he wants his dinner. It starts as a little wine and the tone goes up and down and then develops into a bark, which is actually quite funny as it seems he's really trying to talk. I just took him into the hall yesterday and closed the door and he gave up quite quickly. When he was quiet, I fed him.
Spot on advice from Emilyoliver. Re-thinking my approach to retrieving objects from Archie by asking him to give them to me willingly, rather than me taking them from him was a really important step to getting his guarding under control. If he has something I can see he might guard, but that I don't want him to have, I stay very calm and keep my voice light. I will often tell him he's a good boy or a clever boy for finding whatever it might be and I then walk away. I call him to me (we have a phrase "fetch it for a biscuit"!) and he will bring it to me. Being completely non-confrontational with him is the key.
Also found that very helpful - I've also made the mistake of just taking things off him and now he's started to run off, which, from his point of view, is logical!! (OH reckons I'm becoming addicted to this site, but its just SO helpful, I love it! :lol2:)
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Just wondering why the bark collar? Surely it will make him more reactive to situations in a negative way?
I'm thinking the same. Anti bark devices don't fix the underlying problem of why a dog is barking. They may give a quick fix, but they're likely to cause the dog a huge amount of frustration because his method of communicating with the world has been stopped. Dogs bark for a reason, and if you can identify the trigger or triggers that start the barking you can then work out ways to stop or minimise the need for barking.
As an example, if it's because he becomes over excited when he's playing, learn to recognise the signs and stop the playing before he goes over the top and give him time to calm down. If he barks for attention in the house (I've had a couple do that when they were puppies) try totally ignoring him and just walk out of the room. No eye contact, no telling him off or speaking to him, just walk out until he stops barking. Come back in when he's stopped and carry on as normal. You can also praise him quietly every time he's quiet and settled in the house so he learns that being quiet and calm is rewarding. It's all too easy to ignore them when they're finally quiet and all we want to do is enjoy the peace! Take a few seconds to praise that quietness.
We do all the above but sometimes nothing works. He is a puppy that can quite happily bark to himself and increase the barking when he is ignored (and no other cause apparent such as thirst, discomfort, toileting requirements). We have occasional 35 minute car journeys where he can spend 30 minutes barking and being ignored and then the remainder 5 minutes collapsed in a sleepy heap out of exhaustion at his own barking! He is simply very vocal and has an entire repertoire that we can recognise now (there is the 'I'm wet and want to be immediately dry' warble which is especially interesting.) We use the anti bark collar on occasion out of consideration for neighbours who have complained and to be honest, it works. He gets praise when he's quiet and playing nicely with his toys, but that also sometimes stuns him / interrupts him out of the good behaviour that he is doing and so he starts another activity which is more destructive / louder! :lol:
Quite frankly if it is a tool that I can use to help him from starting aggressively on people, I'm going to use it. For them, and for him. Last night his flash-quick 'grr-bark-bite' response was interrupted before it got to the bite stage. That's a good result for us all, and hopefully it will stop this unpredictable response from becoming a repertoire in his behaviour. I can't have this flash quick unpredictable response and create an unsafe environment for us all.
I'm really glad to hear people don't think it sounds like rage!
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If you look on You Tube there is a very good video by Zak George on humanely stopping a dog from nuisance barking. I'm on my phone so can't find a way to link it but it comes up if you search Zak George barking.
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I agree with the others, anti bark collars are just not the way to go and can potentially cause a lifetime of fear based problems. He is still a puppy and I would be amazed if he was being aggressive, cockers can be noisy, grumbly and vocal, and he is still so young and learning, it's a great time for teaching how you want him to behave.
Obviously on a forum we can all give advice, but can't really know what is happening so if you are really worried it might be good to call in a behaviourist who uses reward based methods for advice and tips about how to manage the situation.
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It's not an electric shock collar that he has, it's a sound / vibration based one. It doesn't bother him much but it does startle him /interrupt him. The vibrating setting startled him into stopping the escalation from grr to bark to bite (and like I say, it is quick, his jaws were closing around my wrist when he backed down although his teeth had not made contact.) It stopped the bloodshed, and it might have helped prevent this particular behaviour becoming part of his repertoire through repeatedly practising the aggressive action...it's hard to feel sorry about that.
I get that it's a negative association, but I would ask anyone here to say they have never said 'NO!' to their dogs, or perhaps pushed down a dog that was jumping up, or pulled off their dog if it was being too boisterous with another or asked a dog to leave something he would rather be eating...these are all negative associations for the dog who doesn't want to be told NO, doesn't want to be back on the ground when he would rather have his paws on your shoulders, doesn't want to be stuck standing next to you with your hand on his collar rather than humping the cowering dog in the park, doesn't want to have to empty his mouth of the precious dead squirrel he has found.. but at times they are appropriate to help stop an unwanted behaviour.
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I'd recommend you read the pinned post at the top of this section - it clearly explains why aversive training can potentially backfire.
Additionally, it's not really a great idea to stop the growl/bark without addressing the cause - if the cause isn't resolved, the dog is still getting stressed, but does not feel able to express that stress. In the best case scenario, that is as far as it goes... in the worst case scenario, something happens to push them over the edge, and they end up biting without warning. :-\
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I'd recommend you read the pinned post at the top of this section - it clearly explains why aversive training can potentially backfire.
Additionally, it's not really a great idea to stop the growl/bark without addressing the cause - if the cause isn't resolved, the dog is still getting stressed, but does not feel able to express that stress. In the best case scenario, that is as far as it goes... in the worst case scenario, something happens to push them over the edge, and they end up biting without warning. :-\
At the moment this particular behaviour is without warning, the grr-bark-bite response is so fast that there is no time to avoid the end stage - the vibration of the collar reacts more quickly than we can to move our hand away. (And yes, this behaviour started before using the collar) As I've said, this isn't the norm, normally I know exactly when Ollie is uncomfortable.. I can see him stand or lie stiffly, he looks at you in a certain way and so I pretend to be busy with something else, call him to me to sit for a treat, almost 'reset him' in a way and then he's absolutely fine after that. These other scenarios are much rarer and unpredictable and a causal chain of events is not so easy to see (he hasn't had anything like this since Tuesday).
I really don't think the collar is doing him any harm, he's a confident, dominant dog (we realised we had taken home the alpha pup 2 days after we got him - he was almost identical in appearance to a more middling pup we had intended on taking home apart from being a bit bigger and having a very slighty different small white marking on his chest -he's a solid black). He's not anxious or fearful in any way and this is like a fly buzzing to him..it distracts him out of the agression response and I think that's a good thing, just as it helps a toddler to be distracted out of throwing a tantrum. I know I'm not going to convince everyone of that but I have his best interests and all of our best interests in my mind at all times and I think through scenarios carefully. If ever I am more seriously concerned I will look into getting a reputable dog beaviourist in. Since Tuesday we've had a wonderful couple of cuddly days with him.
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Judging from mine these dogs have an excellent memory and are interested in knowing where items are.
If you take something from them and it just vanishes they get anxious.
If I hide a ball in the woods, perhaps buried under some tree roots, when I return months later my dog will dig around and find it.
So when I get a ball retrieved I always put it in a white plastic bag in my right-hand pocket. Then dog knows its safe and gets on with something else. There are similar "safe" places around the house for stuff. Make sure the dog knows where you put things.
Mine will put things he finds left about into his puppy basket.
We had all kinds of guarding problems when a puppy. Now, at 2 years, there is only one thing he will guard and fight me for... it's my wife. Totally, besottedly in love with her.
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At the moment this particular behaviour is without warning, the grr-bark-bite response is so fast that there is no time to avoid the end stage
You may find there is sometimes but its so subtle you miss it (I was told a cocker I was fostering was growling for no reason when she was actually guarding objects but they were focused on the growl and reacting straight away to it rather than stepping back and looking - she was actually very good at letting me know what she was guarding but they were 'blind' to it)
Sometimes you may find the situation you have is manageable rather than cured/solved. Dogs will sometimes guard more when they are stressed (another observation I found re cockers I had here that I fostered)
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this but there's a great book called 'Mine' by Jean Donaldson (I gave my copy away when I rehomed the cocker I was fostering at the time - she was the worst resource guarder I'd seen here but with a new home and reduced stress she was better than she was - that's not to say that stress alone was the cause as its often more complicated than that).
Some stress can be created if they are constantly feeling confronted by owners who will remove everything they have (one of my sprockers will growl if he has a bone or if he finds dead wildlife but I often leave him to it as its 'normal' for a dog to be like this if not always acceptable but sometimes we have to let them enjoy their bones in peace (as let's face it how would we like it every time we had chocolate someone wanted to take it off us) - I will often let Bosley just going outside to the bottom of the garden so he can eat any prized bones).
Other stress can be more complicated.
Jean Donaldson also wrote this great article
http://4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf (http://4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf)
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He seems better about it currently, I guess it just seems ups and downs at the moment. Normally we see the usual gradual warning mechanisms in place and then sometimes they seem to be massively condensed to the extent they can't act as warning as they happen so quickly.
And I really find it's a question of trying to work out the balance of handling - avoiding and distracting and de-escalating behaviour at the same time as trying to show him that it's not acceptable that he behaves like that. Yes, we can manage behaviour, control situations etc, but we also have to recognise in the future there might be times when we will not be there - if others are looking after him, emergency situations, running away....there are all sorts of unforseeable scenarios when it might not be enough to say 'Yes, WE know how to work this out so that we will all be safe'..ideally I want to get to a situation where I can more reliably be assured my dog is a safe one to be around in general, and sometimes it feels that working around the behaviour maintains this as a problem on the back burner, potentially flaring up at unknown times in the future, rather than addressing it more directly.
We are wondering whether neutering is an option we should look at fairly soon (he is 5 months) but I guess that is a question for the health part of the boards.
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I'm pretty sure that I've read up if you already have an anxious dog then neutering can exacerbate this. As Pearl was / is an anxious dog I didn't want to have her spayed but had no choice due to a pyometra.
At 5 months your boy is really still a baby and won't understand boundaries or have a consistent behaviour.
At a training session recently Adrian Slater told me that he thinks cockers have three stages of development:
4-6 months old is the notorious "biting" phase where dogs learn bite inhibition and boundaries it's also the start of learned behaviours,
8-12 months is the dreaded teenage phase where they start to think they know best and become defiant - it's the time where instead of sitting on the first command as they have been doing beautifully up to now.....it takes at least three "sit" the third being "SIT" before you get a response and often get the head shaking/ ear flapping (I can't hear you) or wee on the way back when they haven't recalled......so you can't tell them off,
16-20 months during which their steadiness goes to pot, they decide they don't want to do things for you any more or will once or twice then get bored!
I've mentioned Pearl was an anxious pup, she was a nightmare pup also. She wouldn't sleep, waking at 5am and on the go the whole day until 11.30...she became an unpredictable whirling dervish, launching herself at me and taking chunks out of my hand. Age 9 months I sat on my living room floor in floods of tears with a black and white flying set of teeth jumping over me. Age 9.5 months she became the softest lump of fluff imaginable and just wanted cuddles.
What I'm trying to say is that you are not alone in experiencing this sort of behaviour. It's hard to tell without seeing your boy in action, he may think he's playing by launching himself at you (as Pearl did - think exuberant child who doesn't understand when to stop) or if it is truly aggressive behaviour (he is very young to determine that) then I would suggest you need the help of a professional behaviourist.
Using a vibrating or sound collar on such a young dog, I think is asking for trouble when he's older - you need to help him by nuturing and shaping his behaviour adapted to his needs - he isn't a child but in human terms he is the equivalent of a 3 year old child - and how many of those do you know that pinch or bite (cheeks and noses especially) to test your response?
From all that you've written your boy (sorry I don't seem to be able to find his name) sounds like a bright, healthy cocker spaniel.
I'm not trying to "have a go" with this post - I just wanted to give you a different view and something to consider as an alternative to assuming he is aggressive.
Jayne
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To be honest he's only 18 weeks old - it is normal for puppies to guard like this although unacceptable and it can get a whole lot better mostly because at this age they are also pushing boundaries (Ruby would get quite guardy or growly over me getting her off the sofa etc. but once I taught her how to get off all I needed to do after that was point at the floor and say off and she would).
This phase can be a learning one and one they have to go through and there will be other challenges ahead that make you worry too (mouthiness is one when they hit their teens and while normal again unacceptable but as they grow and you deal with each with patience and with positive reinforcement then they will be fine)
The fact he is doing this now doesn't necessarily mean he will for the rest of his life or actually be a resource guarder - he's too young to actually suggest he is anything other than challenging you as he grows
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"deal with each with patience and with positive reinforcement then they will be fine"
That is absolutely my mantra. It's really early in his development to be expecting to 'bombproof' him for whoever and whatever. I don't think dogs are capable of learning this is unacceptable the way children are meant to internalise rules. Dogs do understand that this has a nice outcome, this doesn't get me what I want. Much easier than children! So long as you don't lose his trust by making him fearful he will be a normal cocker.
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Thanks for all the advice. I hear what people are saying about phases and development and taking it all on board. I know it makes a lot of sense; I have tried before to train Ollie in certain ways, eg toilet training, and can see what is really important is his developmental stages not our own ideas. He often arrives at things on his own timescale. It's just worrying having previously had such placid dogs which have been that way consistently since puppyhood.
I can't regret the collar - Ollie has had no such episode after experiencing the vibration twice on his rapid grr-bark-bite . From doing this maybe 3x per week we have not seen the behaviour in 9 days.
That's a monumental win for us all.
He is a hugely happy, confident dog..he bounds everywhere he goes with a spring in his step like he knows he is the bee's knees. And he is. Absolutely beautiful, with people asking us how his coat is so shiny, what do we feed him and if we will show him and breed from him (no, we will do neither) We love him to bits and he gets cuddles galore and brings us his toys so he can chew them in our laps.
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To be honest though you really need a strategy and a way of dealing with this other than the vibrating collar - the collar acts at the time but not necessarily in the future, as the dog may not have actually learned how to be comfortable around you to do what you want him to and is just often reacting to the collar - he really needs to react to you.
Plus it also helps not to overreact to every little thing just because your dog is different from ones you've come across before
Some cockers can be quite challenging. Often its best to approach anything with fun + to be proactive rather than acting when something happens all the time - if you are constantly reacting to things that happen then this may end up with a rushed approach but being proactive and bonding with your dog in a fun way as well as training is the better way (that way things that do happen even if they're new ones you may be able to deal with in an unspecific way). In the process of doing this you will find your own positive way of dealing with things.
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I completely agree with PennyB.
I look after a friends now 6 month old cocker puppy one day a week, I have since 9 weeks. My friend has struggled with her 'bad' behaviour. She has had a couple of cockers before but neither has she found as 'challenging' as this one. However, I don't see any of her behaviour as a problem, to me she is just a normal puppy! I have seen my fair share of puppy 'problems' with my lab and Wcs when they were puppies - mouthing, jumping up, growling, chasing,resource guarding - they weren't angels at all! I have tried to reassure her that she doesn't have a devil dog who has issues, and that each puppy is different, this time round she has a confident, keen and very trainable little dog.
I do agree that if you continue to make an issue about every little thing your puppy does wrong that a very negative feeling will build between the two of you.
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I don't know if I've been clear in my posts - but this specific behaviour that I'm referring to is completely unrelated to Ollie's normal puppy behaviours..his play biting, his pushing boundaries, his occasional body stiffness, his growling when he's uncomfortable... 99.999% of the time he's doing exactly what I would expect of an alpha- type, exuberant and bolshy puppy and I'm not concerned about that especially. He is trained beautifully, his recall is perfect, he is very good around all other dogs, children and people in general.
What my concern was really about was the 0.001% of the time when all the usual rules suddenly don't apply, and there was a disconnected frenzy that was not readily traceable and happened so rapidly that no avoidance was possible - the grr-bark-bite with FULL FORCE until puncture wounds. The bite comes less than a second after the initial growl - the collar responded more quickly to the bark than we could to any of it. This can not be trained out of because it happened at unpredictable times, in scenarios that at other times he has not responded to, and when his wiggly body language suggests he is alright. That is what made it so scary, and that is why we have had others who have lived with dogs all their lives express concern. The collar responded and stopped something that we could not stop or readily anticipate (I know people are reading this thinking 'you just didn't notice the signs' - I'm sorry - you are wrong. You really needed to see this. That's why I was worried about rage. It has not happened in 9 days and I think the collar has played a role in that.
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I don't know if I've been clear in my posts - but this specific behaviour that I'm referring to is completely unrelated to Ollie's normal puppy behaviours..his play biting, his pushing boundaries, his occasional body stiffness, his growling when he's uncomfortable... 99.999% of the time he's doing exactly what I would expect of an alpha- type, exuberant and bolshy puppy and I'm not concerned about that especially. He is trained beautifully, his recall is perfect, he is very good around all other dogs, children and people in general.
What my concern was really about was the 0.001% of the time when all the usual rules suddenly don't apply, and there was a disconnected frenzy that was not readily traceable and happened so rapidly that no avoidance was possible - the grr-bark-bite with FULL FORCE until puncture wounds. The bite comes less than a second after the initial growl - the collar responded more quickly to the bark than we could to any of it. This can not be trained out of because it happened at unpredictable times, in scenarios that at other times he has not responded to, and when his wiggly body language suggests he is alright. That is what made it so scary, and that is why we have had others who have lived with dogs all their lives express concern. The collar responded and stopped something that we could not stop or readily anticipate (I know people are reading this thinking 'you just didn't notice the signs' - I'm sorry - you are wrong. You really needed to see this. That's why I was worried about rage. It has not happened in 9 days and I think the collar has played a role in that.
I've not experience rage so can't comment but can identify with what you've described. Pearl did this, almost at the height of teething/play biting stage. In fact, we were talking about it last night when my neighbours daughter popped round - Laura used to look after Pearl after school (now 18 and working) Pearl drew blood on both of us, more than once :-\ in the same two week period, I think before she hit 20 weeks (long time ago now and many sherrys have been consumed ph34r).
I'd suggest monitoring as you have been and if his behaviour concerns you speak to a behaviourist early, as they often have great distraction techniques that I'd never have thought of!
Think it's about time we had some photos of Ollie - he sounds gorgeous on every other level :D
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True we don't know what your pup is like
I have 2 sprockers who's mum's (who worked) were quite scaredy things I discovered (both sisters) and Bosley in particular had a very poor start so for a long time I was always playing catch up - in his case its fear aggression (not just dogs but some people) so his behaviour has been quite challenging from the start plus he is a guarder but in his case I can control it and its only high value things (well those and stuff I highly value). Not every dog fits in to little boxes even as pups - Ruby my show type was a real mare of a pup, very strong willed, very confident, very challenging - but she turned into a lovely adult dog using some of the methods above just as I have to use them with Bosley - he is so much better but his fear has been the obstacle re training but at 2 while not there we have a great relationship. Relying on stuff like vibrating collars cannot work without the other training and the best training is proactive stuff - practice but also practice with games as well and without the vibrating collar.
At 18 weeks you may still not have that bond with your dog - its not like the bond some feel they have where the dog follows them, or loves a cuddle its the I'm going to really listen to you and do what you say most times sort of bond. One dog I have will do anything for a tennis ball - that was taught not something that just happened but I also use the tennis ball to prevent problems too (he doesn't like every dog we meet or if I just want him to come with me step by step away from danger of sorts when I don't want to have to keep putting him back on lead).
I have also fostered many dogs and pups with varying temperaments and behaviours - one cocker boy that springs to mind was given up age 17 weeks and was very challenging compared to any I'd seen then and wouldn't given anything up for anyone and there were the mad moments when he'd go into a frenzy bitey mode but that also can normal for a pup his age to do (usually when I have pups like this I tend not to intervene or I'd get bitten - not intentionally but because he was in mad bitey racing around mode and didn't have any self control then + at this time they don't listen either - one pup I used to stand back in the kitchen and just let him get on with it or I'd divert him into a game of sorts then something to calm him down)
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Hoover, you obviously think you have found a "miracle cure". Not one person who has commented so far agrees with you but you still think you're right. Is your poor puppy now wearing that collar constantly? Is he being punished every time he growls/barks? You are not letting him exhibit normal puppy/dog behaviour. What happens when he gets used to it or the batteries run out or it stops working?
He is so young, still a baby. You have been doing some great things with him and now you risk throwing everything away by building fear into your relationship. He is still learning, still growing up, still looking to you to teach him. Please throw the collar away and get some proper training for you and him.
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there is NO warning with rage - the dog goes straight into full on aggression.
Aversives a such as your collar will certainly stop your puppy giving a warning growl or bark.
He could potentially start going from nothing to aggression as you are punishing him when he growls.
This could be misconstrued as rage.
He will then be put to sleep.
There are choices - either carry on like this and potentially lose your puppy, get some help from a cocker savvy apdt trainer, or you could re-home.
No, none of us can see what your pup is like but all of us agree that aversives only cause more problems in the long run.
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These episodes started before using the collar, he had 2 more episodes after when he happened to be wearing the collar which stopped before the final puncture wound stage and since then there have been no more of these episodes. I am delighted to reassure you all he spent the 40 minute journey from livingston to glasgow today barking his head off with no collar on.
Yes, you do need to see what was happening (although it would be impossible to record due to the unpredictability of occasion). Imagine your dog being happy 99 times out of 100 being patted and then turning on you on the 100th, or the same for putting his collar on, or the same for walking 3 feet away from his bone, or the same for picking him up. each time on 99 occasions a happy luttle boy and on that one hundredth occasion going from waggily to puncture wounds in the blink of an eye and you will have some idea of what was happening.
I dont know how many more times I have to say he does the usual warning signals most of the time which we are all very well attuned to and practice the usual distraction techniques to prevent the escalation to more serious behaviour. This is not about that. Hw still griwls when he feels the need, he still play bites and we take it as the puppy behaviour we expect to see although we work towards discouraging it. This isnt about any of that. this is about the unpredictable 0-100 mph frenzy in the blink of an eye.
He goes every week to puppy classes where he is pretty much the star of the show and gets bored being asked to do the same old things he has mastered weeks previously. we continue to go for the benefits for socialization. He is trained every day whenever he is in the mood which is actually a lot of the time; he is eager for jobs to do..
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Its not unusual for some pups to do same over a bone even if you're walking 3 feet away - stop giving him a bone if this is an issue - he doesn't need one and he has time later in life to learn more self control with really high value items by learning to give up other things for starters - he has plenty of time (at least another 18 months-2 years before he matures) to grow in to a well rounded pup (oh yes I have had my hands been bitten to shreds putting one cocker pup's harness on before now or saving him from killing himself by swallowing things he shouldn't that he refused to give up no matter how high value the treat at the time - for him it was training that eventually worked as with other things it was very much about teaching them self control (which yours doesn't seem to have from what you say as he's learning he can try to get away with things by using his mouth). Some cockers are more strong willed than others which makes for bad behaviour some times
Why not try clicker training to try and focus him more and learn how to shape his behaviour. Often we tend to react to things when they happen when we should really be training them in a more proactive way - these things will never be learnt using a vibration collar
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Well, to be honest, you seem very enamoured with the collar and unwilling to listen to any other view :o You obviously think you know best inspite of every single person on this thread thinking that the collar is a bad idea :shades:
Using this sort of method on such a young pup is setting up problems for the future as it will only teach him to supress his warning behaviour. It is a dangerous game you are playing and it is your pup that will pay the ultimate price if your methods cease to work :'(
Why don't you get a good behaviourist who uses only positive methods to help :dunno:
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it's been suggested more than once Joules ;)
Hoover - I'm not sure why you are seeking advice and approval on aversives when we, as a forum, openly discourage and would never condone the use of them.
Whatever we suggest is dismissed so I'm not sure what you're seeking from us?
Do you WANT us to say he has rage???
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I just wondered if you had told your trainer at puppy classes that you are using a collar ? If it is a decent trainer they will be horrified you are using it on a puppy!
If your puppy has a problem, whether it be rage or some other neurological issue, you do realise that the collar will do nothing to solve it in the long run don't you?
At such a young age, unless your puppy has a neurological problem which is making it behave like you describe, then it is purely a behavioural issue. Something that at 18 weeks can easily be ironed out by changing situations and the way you respond so it doesn't happen.
I do wonder if you are actually scared of your puppy ? If you are nervous of what you puppy will do next, these vibes are feeding into your puppy and making it feel unsure of itself.
Have you had you puppy checked by a vet for any pain issues - when you are patting it, picking it up, putting collar on ? Maybe a certain place you touch is causing pain ?
As others have said, resource guarding is not uncommon, it seems to be quite prevalent amongst spaniels. When I gave my lab a bone as a puppy she would have had my hand off if I tried to get it, so I stopped allowing her to have anything which was of high value as a puppy. I also worked on giving and taking toys off both my dogs from puppies and I still do now. I take the toy, praise them and give it back. As puppies I took the toy, praise and reward with a treat and give the toy back. When they realised this happened they would frequently sit with toy hanging out of mouth waiting for it to be taken so they could have a treat. If the bone is so precious don't allow him to have it, it's a simple answer!
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I just wondered if you had told your trainer at puppy classes that you are using a collar ? If it is a decent trainer they will be horrified you are using it on a puppy!
You know I wondered that myself, if you have a puppy that at young age you feel needs something like this, at least the trainer should know if you have not already told her/him, for the safety of all the pups and their owners in her/his class, including yourselves.
I sadly feel though that any advice and help is falling on deaf ears.