Resource Guarding

[AlanT]

Judging from mine these dogs have an excellent memory and are interested in knowing where items are.
If you take something from them and it just vanishes they get anxious.

If I hide a ball in the woods, perhaps buried under some tree roots, when I return months later my dog will dig around and find it.

So when I get a ball retrieved I always put it in a white plastic bag in my right-hand pocket. Then dog knows its safe and gets on with something else. There are similar "safe" places around the house for stuff. Make sure the dog knows where you put things.

Mine will put things he finds left about into his puppy basket.

We had all kinds of guarding problems when a puppy. Now, at 2 years, there is only one thing he will guard and fight me for... it's my wife. Totally, besottedly in love with her.

[PennyB]

At the moment this particular behaviour is without warning, the grr-bark-bite response is so fast that there is no time to avoid the end stage

You may find there is sometimes but its so subtle you miss it (I was told a cocker I was fostering was growling for no reason when she was actually guarding objects but they were focused on the growl and reacting straight away to it rather than stepping back and looking - she was actually very good at letting me know what she was guarding but they were 'blind' to it)

Sometimes you may find the situation you have is manageable rather than cured/solved. Dogs will sometimes guard more when they are stressed (another observation I found re cockers I had here that I fostered)

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this but there's a great book called 'Mine' by Jean Donaldson (I gave my copy away when I rehomed the cocker I was fostering at the time - she was the worst resource guarder I'd seen here but with a new home and reduced stress she was better than she was - that's not to say that stress alone was the cause as its often more complicated than that).

Some stress can be created if they are constantly feeling confronted by owners who will remove everything they have (one of my sprockers will growl if he has a bone or if he finds dead wildlife but I often leave him to it as its 'normal' for a dog to be like this if not always acceptable but sometimes we have to let them enjoy their bones in peace (as let's face it how would we like it every time we had chocolate someone wanted to take it off us) - I will often let Bosley just going outside to the bottom of the garden so he can eat any prized bones).

Other stress can be more complicated.

Jean Donaldson also wrote this great article
http://4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf

[hoover]

He seems better about it currently, I guess it just seems ups and downs at the moment. Normally we see the usual gradual warning mechanisms in place and then sometimes they seem to be massively condensed to the extent they can't act as warning as they happen so quickly.

And I really find it's a question of trying to work out the balance of handling - avoiding and distracting and de-escalating behaviour at the same time as trying to show him that it's not acceptable that he behaves like that.  Yes, we can manage behaviour, control situations etc, but we also have to recognise in the future there might be times when we will not be there - if others are looking after him, emergency situations, running away....there are all sorts of unforseeable scenarios when it might not be enough to say 'Yes, WE know how to work this out so that we will all be safe'..ideally I want to get to a situation where I can more reliably be assured my dog is a safe one to be around in general, and sometimes it feels that working around the behaviour maintains this as a problem on the back burner, potentially flaring up at unknown times in the future, rather than addressing it more directly.

We are wondering whether neutering is an option we should look at fairly soon (he is 5 months) but I guess that is a question for the health part of the boards.
 

[Pearly]

I'm pretty sure that I've read up if you already have an anxious dog then neutering can exacerbate this.  As Pearl was / is an anxious dog I didn't want to have her spayed but had no choice due to a pyometra.

At 5 months your boy is really still a baby and won't understand boundaries or have a consistent behaviour.

 At a training session recently Adrian Slater told me that he thinks cockers have three stages of development:
4-6 months old is the notorious "biting" phase where dogs learn bite inhibition and boundaries it's also the start of learned behaviours,
8-12 months is the dreaded teenage phase where they start to think they know best and become defiant - it's the time where instead of sitting on the first command as they have been doing beautifully up to now.....it takes at least three "sit" the third being "SIT" before you get a response and often get the head shaking/ ear flapping (I can't hear you) or wee on the way back when they haven't recalled......so you can't tell them off,
16-20 months during which their steadiness goes to pot, they decide they don't want to do things for you any more or will once or twice then get bored!

I've mentioned Pearl was an anxious pup, she was a nightmare pup also.  She wouldn't sleep, waking at 5am and on the go the whole day until 11.30...she became an unpredictable whirling dervish, launching herself at me and taking chunks out of my hand.  Age 9 months I sat on my living room floor in floods of tears with a black and white flying set of teeth jumping over me.  Age 9.5 months she became the softest lump of fluff imaginable and just wanted cuddles.

What I'm trying to say is that you are not alone in experiencing this sort of behaviour. It's hard to tell without seeing your boy in action, he may think he's playing by launching himself at you (as Pearl did - think exuberant child who doesn't understand when to stop) or if it is truly aggressive behaviour (he is very young to determine that) then I would suggest you need the help of a professional behaviourist.

Using a vibrating or sound collar on such a young dog, I think is asking for trouble when he's older - you need to help him by nuturing and shaping his behaviour adapted to his needs - he isn't a child but in human terms he is the equivalent of a 3 year old child - and how many of those do you know that pinch or bite (cheeks and noses especially) to test your response?

From all that you've written your boy (sorry I don't seem to be able to find his name) sounds like a bright, healthy cocker spaniel.

I'm not trying to "have a go" with this post - I just wanted to give you a different view and something to consider as an alternative to assuming he is aggressive.

Jayne

[PennyB]

To be honest he's only 18 weeks old - it is normal for puppies to guard like this although unacceptable and it can get a whole lot better mostly because at this age they are also pushing boundaries (Ruby would get quite guardy or growly over me getting her off the sofa etc. but once I taught her how to get off all I needed to do after that was point at the floor and say off and she would).

This phase can be a learning one and one they have to go through and there will be other challenges ahead that make you worry too (mouthiness is one when they hit their teens and while normal again unacceptable but as they grow and you deal with each with patience and with positive reinforcement then they will be fine)

The fact he is doing this now doesn't necessarily mean he will for the rest of his life or actually be a resource guarder - he's too young to actually suggest he is anything other than challenging you as he grows

[daw]

"deal with each with patience and with positive reinforcement then they will be fine"

That is absolutely my mantra. It's really early in his development to be expecting to 'bombproof' him for whoever and whatever. I don't think dogs are capable of learning this is unacceptable the way children are meant to internalise rules. Dogs do understand that this has a nice outcome, this doesn't get me what I want. Much easier than children! So long as you don't lose his trust by making him fearful he will be a normal cocker. 

[hoover]

Thanks for all the advice.  I hear what people are saying about phases and development and taking it all on board.  I know it makes a lot of sense; I have tried before to train Ollie in certain ways, eg toilet training, and can see what is really important is his developmental stages not our own ideas.  He often arrives at things on his own timescale.  It's just worrying having previously had such placid dogs which have been that way consistently  since puppyhood.

I can't regret the collar - Ollie has had no such episode after experiencing the vibration twice on his rapid grr-bark-bite .  From doing this maybe 3x per week we have not seen the behaviour in 9 days.

That's a monumental win for us all. 

He is a hugely happy, confident dog..he bounds everywhere he goes with a spring in his step like he knows he is the bee's knees.  And he is.  Absolutely beautiful, with people asking us how his coat is so shiny, what do we feed him and if we will show him and breed from him (no, we will do neither) We love him to bits and he gets cuddles galore and brings us his toys so he can chew them in our laps.

[PennyB]

To be honest though you really need a strategy and a way of dealing with this other than the vibrating collar - the collar acts at the time but not necessarily in the future, as the dog may not have actually learned how to be comfortable around you to do what you want him to and is just often reacting to the collar - he really needs to react to you.

Plus it also helps not to overreact to every little thing just because your dog is different from ones you've come across before

Some cockers can be quite challenging. Often its best to approach anything with fun + to be proactive rather than acting when something happens all the time - if you are constantly reacting to things that happen then this may end up with a rushed approach but being proactive and bonding with your dog in a fun way as well as training is the better way (that way things that do happen even if they're new ones you may be able to deal with in an unspecific way). In the process of doing this you will find your own positive way of dealing with things.

[rubybella]

I completely agree with PennyB.

I look after a friends now 6 month old cocker puppy one day a week, I have since 9 weeks. My friend has struggled with her 'bad' behaviour. She has had a couple of cockers before but neither has she found as 'challenging' as this one. However, I don't see any of her behaviour as a problem, to me she is just a normal puppy! I have seen my fair share of puppy 'problems' with my lab and Wcs when they were puppies - mouthing, jumping up, growling, chasing,resource guarding - they weren't angels at all! I have tried to reassure her that she doesn't have a devil dog who has issues, and that each puppy is different, this time round she has a confident, keen and very trainable little dog.

I do agree that if you continue to make an issue about every little thing your puppy does wrong that a very negative feeling will build between the two of you.

[hoover]

I don't know if I've been clear in my posts - but this specific behaviour that I'm referring to is completely unrelated to Ollie's normal puppy behaviours..his play biting, his pushing boundaries, his occasional body stiffness, his growling when he's uncomfortable... 99.999% of the time he's doing exactly what I  would expect of an alpha- type, exuberant and bolshy puppy and I'm not concerned about that especially.  He is trained beautifully, his recall is perfect, he is very good around all other dogs, children and people in general.

What my concern was really about was the 0.001% of the time when all the usual rules suddenly don't apply, and there was a disconnected frenzy that was not readily traceable and happened so rapidly that no avoidance was possible - the grr-bark-bite with FULL FORCE until puncture wounds. The bite comes less than a second after the initial growl - the collar responded more quickly to the bark than we could to any of it.  This can not be trained out of because it happened at unpredictable times, in scenarios that at other times he has not responded to, and when his wiggly body language suggests he is alright.  That is what made it so scary, and that is why we have had others who have lived with dogs all their lives express concern.  The collar responded and stopped something that we could not stop or readily anticipate (I know people are reading this thinking 'you just didn't notice the signs' - I'm sorry - you are wrong.  You really needed to see this. That's why I was worried about rage.  It has not happened in 9 days and I think the collar has played a role in that.

[Pearly]

I don't know if I've been clear in my posts - but this specific behaviour that I'm referring to is completely unrelated to Ollie's normal puppy behaviours..his play biting, his pushing boundaries, his occasional body stiffness, his growling when he's uncomfortable... 99.999% of the time he's doing exactly what I  would expect of an alpha- type, exuberant and bolshy puppy and I'm not concerned about that especially.  He is trained beautifully, his recall is perfect, he is very good around all other dogs, children and people in general.

What my concern was really about was the 0.001% of the time when all the usual rules suddenly don't apply, and there was a disconnected frenzy that was not readily traceable and happened so rapidly that no avoidance was possible - the grr-bark-bite with FULL FORCE until puncture wounds. The bite comes less than a second after the initial growl - the collar responded more quickly to the bark than we could to any of it.  This can not be trained out of because it happened at unpredictable times, in scenarios that at other times he has not responded to, and when his wiggly body language suggests he is alright.  That is what made it so scary, and that is why we have had others who have lived with dogs all their lives express concern.  The collar responded and stopped something that we could not stop or readily anticipate (I know people are reading this thinking 'you just didn't notice the signs' - I'm sorry - you are wrong.  You really needed to see this. That's why I was worried about rage.  It has not happened in 9 days and I think the collar has played a role in that.

I've not experience rage so can't comment but can identify with what you've described.  Pearl did this, almost at the height of teething/play biting stage.  In fact, we were talking about it last night when my neighbours daughter popped round - Laura used to look after Pearl after school (now 18 and working) Pearl drew blood on both of us, more than once  in the same two week period, I think before she hit 20 weeks (long time ago now and many sherrys have been consumed  ).

I'd suggest monitoring as you have been and if his behaviour concerns you speak to a behaviourist early, as they often have great distraction techniques that I'd never have thought of!

Think it's about time we had some photos of Ollie - he sounds gorgeous on every other level 

[PennyB]

True we don't know what your pup is like

I have 2 sprockers who's mum's (who worked) were quite scaredy things I discovered (both sisters) and Bosley in particular had a very poor start so for a long time I was always playing catch up - in his case its fear aggression (not just dogs but some people) so his behaviour has been quite challenging from the start plus he is a guarder but in his case I can control it and its only high value things (well those and stuff I highly value). Not every dog fits in to little boxes even as pups - Ruby my show type was a real mare of a pup, very strong willed, very confident, very challenging - but she turned into a lovely adult dog using some of the methods above just as I have to use them with Bosley - he is so much better but his fear has been the obstacle re training but at 2 while not there we have a great relationship. Relying on stuff like vibrating collars cannot work without the other training and the best training is proactive stuff - practice but also practice with games as well and without the vibrating collar.

At 18 weeks you may still not have that bond with your dog - its not like the bond some feel they have where the dog follows them, or loves a cuddle its the I'm going to really listen to you and do what you say most times sort of bond. One dog I have will do anything for a tennis ball - that was taught not something that just happened but I also use the tennis ball to prevent problems too (he doesn't like every dog we meet or if I just want him to come with me step by step away from danger of sorts when I don't want to have to keep putting him back on lead).

I have also fostered many dogs and pups with varying temperaments and behaviours - one cocker boy that springs to mind was given up age 17 weeks and was very challenging compared to any I'd seen then and wouldn't given anything up for anyone and there were the mad moments when he'd go into a frenzy bitey mode but that also can normal for a pup his age to do (usually when I have pups like this I tend not to intervene or I'd get bitten - not intentionally but because he was in mad bitey racing around mode and didn't have any self control then + at this time they don't listen either - one pup I used to stand back in the kitchen and just let him get on with it or I'd divert him into a game of sorts then something to calm him down)

[twiceover2]

Hoover, you obviously think you have found a "miracle cure".  Not one person who has commented so far agrees with you but you still think you're right.  Is your poor puppy now wearing that collar constantly?  Is he being punished every time he growls/barks?  You are not letting him exhibit normal puppy/dog behaviour.  What happens when he gets used to it or the batteries run out or it stops working?

He is so young, still a baby.  You have been doing some great things with him and now you risk throwing everything away by building fear into your relationship.  He is still learning, still growing up, still looking to you to teach him.  Please throw the collar away and get some proper training for you and him.

[Helen]

there is NO warning with rage - the dog goes straight into full on aggression.

Aversives a such as your collar will certainly stop your puppy giving a warning growl or bark.

He could potentially start going from nothing to aggression as you are punishing him when he growls.

This could be misconstrued as rage.

He will then be put to sleep.

There are choices -  either carry on like this and potentially lose your puppy,  get some help from a cocker savvy apdt trainer, or you could re-home. 

No, none of us can see what your pup is like but all of us agree that aversives only cause more problems in the long run.

[hoover]

These episodes started before using the collar, he had 2 more episodes after when he happened to be  wearing the collar which stopped before the final puncture wound stage and since then there have been no more of these episodes. I am delighted to reassure you all he spent the 40 minute journey from livingston to glasgow today barking his head off with no collar on.

Yes, you do need to see what was happening (although it would be impossible to record due to the unpredictability of occasion). Imagine your dog being happy 99 times out of 100 being patted and then turning on you on the 100th, or the same for putting his collar on, or the same for walking 3 feet away from his bone, or the same for picking him up. each time on 99 occasions a happy luttle boy and on that one hundredth occasion going from waggily to puncture wounds in the blink of an eye and you will have some idea of what was happening.

I dont know how many more times I have to say he does the usual warning signals most of the time which we are all very well attuned to and practice the usual distraction techniques to prevent the escalation to more serious behaviour. This is not about that. Hw still griwls when he feels the need, he still play bites and we take it as the puppy behaviour we expect to see although we work towards discouraging it. This isnt about any of that. this is about the unpredictable 0-100 mph frenzy in the blink of an eye.

He goes every week to puppy classes where he is pretty much the star of the show and gets bored being asked to do the same old things he has mastered weeks previously. we continue to go for the benefits for socialization. He is trained every day whenever he is in the mood which is actually a lot of the time; he is eager for jobs to do..