CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: supaspaniel on March 10, 2010, 07:28:07 PM
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need some advice for a friend....
Is it usual practice for solids to be bred with particolours?
(its not me getting a pup btw ;) )
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I asked the same question to an experienced, reputable breeder & the answer is no it is not usual practice. :shades:
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Solid to Parti matings are common in Working Cockers as colour wouldn't be high on the list of priorities for producing good working dogs. In show lines it's not common practice among reputable breeders at all these days as it's likely to produce 'mismarked' solid pups. Any good breeder will be able to say why they'd chosen a particular stud dog and what attributes they'd hoped it to bring (not just in colour), rather than just use any old dog because it was the same breed. I'd really question a breeder that was mating solid to parti in show lines and ask why they'd done it. ( My guess is they probably don't know much about Cockers, breeding or genetics and haven't done much research. :-\ )
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Depends what they're being bred for. My youngest dogs mum is a particolour and a strong steady worker. Her dad was a solid and is one of the best he owns so it seems a sensible match for him to make as he wanted 2 pups to train up. I dont think he was really concerned about the colour of the off spring. He wanted pups from his 2 steadisest dogs. As it is they all came solid (with white bibs) and none of them are the same colour as the parents.
edit: nb my pups a working cocker as colin says its much more common in working lines
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I was talking to someone once who's sister had bought a puppy from a solid/particolour mating. The puppy was golden with one black ear.
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There is a Portugues judge, breeder of show cockers and veterinarian who has for many years been mating solids to partis
http://www.cocker.no/kennel/dogs_bred_by_vianset.html
He definitely knows what he is talking about, I did ask him why, and one of the reasons he gave was to improve the coat quality of his partis. He can talk for hours about how colours are inherited, but i get lost after 15 minutes!
And Northworth kennels have also done it in the past:
http://www.northworth.net
click on "puppybox" and scroll down to see a color mixed mating.
I don't think its something to be taken lightly and best left to those who know what they are doing and why they are doing it.
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It can be very useful for incorporating solids into a parti pedigree but genrally not vice-versa as you run the risk of mismarks. But when you breed a solid to a parti, then go back to the partis with the succeeding generations you can get some very nice dogs.
However a parti can produce some surprises in a solid pedigree, as when a friend of mine bred solid to solid and got red, black and blue roan! :o The parti was 5 generations back!
I suppose it depends on the breeder and the purpose for the mating. As said, workers are bred with no thought to colour, and puppy farms, back yard breeders and those breeding for the pet trade will also cross colours. But most exhibitors, serious show breeders do it very sparingly and very carefully.
That said, if someone were just looking for a pet or worker, not a breeding or showing prospect, you can get a perfectly fine puppy if all the other things (health testing, etc.) are in place. There is nothing wrong with a mismark, they just aren't
desirable in the show ring or whelping box :blink:
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Has anyone done this and what happens? It is something I have always wondered about but it's a very taboo subject so for fear of getting a curt response I have always been afraid to ask. I knew of a girl where we used to live who own very well bred and health tested dogs who crossed the solid to Parti boundary but never found out what happened. I can see how you could improve the parti colour coat with the intro of a solid and as my solid is so much more of a thinker than my dizzy parti I can also see the pro's there but mine are two girls so don't worry I am not about to mix anything up :)
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I was very interested in a pup from a top kennel last year that was from an accidental solid to parti mating and the only reason I didn't proceed was that I couldn't make the timings work at that time.
It appeared to have been an accidental mating when her naughty parti boy gazumped the planned mate for her golden. However both dogs were of truly exceptional show quality and fully health tested and as there was less interest in the pups from this parti /solid mating for her own breeding purpose and from other purchasers looking to show /breed this meant that she was selling all the litter to pet homes. As a pet owner I would not have been overly concerned about colouring issues.
In the event they were beautifully marked light goldens and black/tan.
It is my understanding, as I did ask the question of the lady who is a well respected judge, that genetically the solid gene will predominate so parti to solid should produce solid...........
I am pretty sure that many kennels will have had such matings - accidents do happen !!
Also as far as I am aware ?? there is not totally reliable detail on colour in the pedigree research so unless the dogs concerned are very well renowned it is probably difficult to be certain that a line is pure solid or parti
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You can usually tell if a solid has parti in it a mile away(show cockers i am on about)because they nearly all ways have white peppering on there muzzles and white on neck or even a white patch on bottom of paw,all of which, of course, you definitely dont want in a solid. >:(
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We looked for a solid working cocker and found they all had some white markings on them somewhere. But as working cockers are bred for their working ability colour isnt usually considered. The boy i picked has a tiny white marking on his neck which you can now barely see as his black fur has grown considerably longer than the white.
However lots of owners of solid show cockers always ask how i got his coat to be so soft, so now im wondering i the parti colouring has caused it to be so much softer than some of the solid cockers you see.
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I've noticed that there are a number of show kennels who have produced the mix on purpose ;)
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My understanding of it not being done in the past, apart from the possible mismarked puppies is that FN was a problem in parti-colours but not in the solids. With all the health testing available now, this would no longer be an issue and in fact I know of someone who has a solid bitch that has missed from the last two attempted matings to an external stud dog and now intends to try to mate her bitch with her own parti dog (so more than one mating can occur) just to see if it has been a case of mis-timing or that the bitch isn't fertile.
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My understanding of it not being done in the past, apart from the possible mismarked puppies is that FN was a problem in parti-colours but not in the solids.
I know parti breeders also used to say that hips were much more of a problem with solids so that's why they didn't want to mix the lines. As you say though health testing means this is far less of an issue than it once was & we know now that most of the genetic problems can be found across the colours anyway.
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Taz is from a tri colour/solid black, and apart from 1 or 2 strands of white hair on his chest is pure black.
As i had no intention of breeding or showing him then it really didnt matter to me - he has a fantastic temperament and health so i don't regret it for a moment.
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Patrick has parti-colour about seven generations back (Travis and Northworth breeding) he is solid Black/Tan without any stray white hairs anywhere. :005:
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My understanding of it not being done in the past, apart from the possible mismarked puppies is that FN was a problem in parti-colours but not in the solids.
That's interesting as Muffin, solid black show type, is an FN carrier. As her pedigree contains well known show kennels I would of thought that there would not have been parti-colours mixed in as they were being bred for showing.
However lots of owners of solid show cockers always ask how i got his coat to be so soft, so now im wondering i the parti colouring has caused it to be so much softer than some of the solid cockers you see.
Muffin also has a very soft coat, but that might be because she has been spayed. :D