CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: padfoot on February 25, 2004, 05:34:04 PM
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Was there huge press coverage of rage syndrome in cockers? If so when? Over the last two days, THREE strangers have told me in the street that I need to be careful with Toby, and before I rehomed him two people I know told me to "be careful with those red cocker spaniels".
Where are they getting this from?! I thought rage syndrome was very rare?
One person stopped me at the park this morning at 7am (great time for debates :? ) and said "Don't let him near kids though". I told her he lives with three children and she said she'd rather have a rottweiler than a cocker spaniel and that she can remember reading how vicious they were once.
I just don't understand where people get these ideas from. Was there an uproar before my time? (I'm 29).
For the record, Toby is about the most placid dog you could meet and adores children :D
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I'm 28 and I don't remember it either but red cockers got a lot of bad press in the 80's :x . Have a look here http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/whatisrage.htm (http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/whatisrage.htm) People tend to forget that cockers are not the only breed that rage has been found in. When someone gets a retriever folk don't give them warnings like that :roll: :roll:
I wouldn't dwell on it - anyone who spends enough time around Toby will know what he's like so don't worry about people you meet in the passing :D
Enjoy Toby :D If he's anything like Morgan he's the soppiest, gentlest dog who loves nothing more than jumping up on the settee for a cuddle. He wouldn't harm a fly :D good job we weren't looking for a guard dog :P
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No, don't worry, I'm not worried about them, or rather not in that way :twisted:
More surprised that people really think these things, I thought it was a little-known rare syndrome and didn't expect people outside the "dog world" to really know anything about it so I am wondering if there was some kind of hysteria about it in the past.
One of the people who mentioned it before Toby arrived was a close friend, she insisted that she had once known a golden cocker who attacked children and when I said in EVERY breed you will find some dogs with temperament problems, she said she was sure she had read somewhere that golden cockers were nasty.
It just seems such an ignorant attitude. My mum said she had always thought cockers were friendly loving dogs and she can't remember any press hysteria about them at all.
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Hi padfoot
Quote from cockerspanielrage.org.uk:
"...the number of affected Cockers is very small. Unfortunately this problem was sensationalised in the 1980's by the national press and this resulted in the Cocker Spaniel gaining a rather undeserved reputation."
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Shirley :D
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Ah, so it was in the press then. Probably the Sun :lol:
Funny how other breeds who can suffer never get mentioned :roll:
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I can remember when we first got Brook 11 years ago and took him for his first visit to the vet - no sooner were we in the door, when the vet piped up "oh, a golden cocker! They are the number one biters" I take it he wasn't a fan :roll:
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And sadly if a cocker shows any aggression at all some trainers label them as having rage before they've even tried to work out what the problem might be!
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An older vet at my vets said the very same thing :x that I had to be careful with my cocker because I had kids.....how uneducated can you get?? The next time I went I saw another vet who thought Butty was a Springer :?
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An older vet at my vets said the very same thing :x that I had to be careful with my cocker because I had kids.....how uneducated can you get?? The next time I went I saw another vet who thought Butty was a Springer :?
Good grounds for finding a new vet?
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Being an old wrinklie, I do remember the press coverage in the 80's - all centred around a certain well-known behaviourist if I remember rightly (famous for his Kongs!). Whilst true cases of Rage are fairly rare in relation to the numbers of Cocker bred each year (and not confined to Cockers), there are still cases coming to light today & many others cases of bad temperament in Cockers & other breeds - I know Linda will be able to confirm this based on the number of people with problem dogs who contact her after visiting her site :( Happily the majority of Cockers are the merry, good-natured companions we all know & love but whilst the sensational press coverage & the prejudice of some vets/trainers etc is and was largely undeserved, we don't want to forget that there are Cockers out there with real problems, often coming from puppy farms & other less reputable breeders but not always. Another reason (if we need one) to keep banging the message home about buying from a reputable breeder!
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Totally agree as far as getting the message across to people about where to obtain their pups from goes.
But on the other hand, I very much doubt Toby came from a reputable breeder considering he was given as payment for a debt by a breeder who had several breeds in his kennels :(
I think it's important to remind people that rage is quite rare. If I had listened to people I would have been scared to rescue Toby, who came close to being put to sleep at only six months old :( .
Yet it is hard to imagine a soppier dog. He is in love with my children and spends most of his life lounging over them.
Apparently there is another golden cocker in an Irish pound, they are negotiating getting him out this week. But the pound would only rehome him where there were no children under 16 simply because he is a golden cocker. He has shown no signs of temperament problems whatsoever. Yet if they have a retriever or Bernese, or any other breed that rage has been associated with, I doubt they make rulings like this :x
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It is understandable that some Rescues feel the need to be cautious where children are concerned even if we might not personally agree with their approach. I agree that it's unfair to apply a ruling like this if they don't have the same ruling for other breeds but at the same time maybe this particular pound have experienced a number of Cockers with poor temperaments in the recent past - who knows? You have to think what would happen if a Rescue rehomed a dog believing he/she had no temperament problems and that dog then seriously bit a child in the new home? In an ideal world, all rescue dogs would be "tested" in family situations for as long as it takes before being rehomed but whilst some smaller Rescues can do this, many cannot :-(
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Hi Padfoot,
I should just be grateful that you have been blessed with a golden cocker that does have a very good temperament by the sound of it.
I deal with lots of distressing cases where people have been bitten and attacked by their solid coloured cockers for no reason - they do it without warning. You would not believe the misery that some owners go through because they cannot bear to have their dog put to sleep. A lot of them say to me that they wish they had been made aware about Rage Syndrome before they bought their puppy.
It is important to raise awareness about this condition even if it is rare. The trouble is that a lot of breeders won't even admit that Rage Syndrome exists. Some breeders have been informed that a puppy they bred has developed RS and they try to blame the owners. They carry on breeding from the same stock.
In this day and age, I think people want to be aware of things so that they can make informed decisions. Just take a look at the memorial section of my website (http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk)- it will break your heart. RS doesn't just happen in cockers but many other breeds as well but it is not allowed to be talked about in some breeds.
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Hi,
I was very interested in your comments and I had a good read of your site. I was just wondering, are there any figures regarding how common RS is in red/golden cockers? Is there a percentage of reported cases?
How heartbreaking for owners who go through that with their beloved pets.
I can now see why people keep talking about red/golden cockers as it seems it's more likely in this colour dog. But I presume that it is still the case that most golden cockers have good temperaments?
Kelly x
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Anyone on here ever had a cocker with rage except me ? a poll with that should indicate exactly how rare rage syndrom really is . mabe it was more common 10 yrs ago :?: :?
I don't think that would work really - those who visit this site are only a tiny minority of Cocker owners in this country (going by the number of registrations alone). Many owners don't even have access to the internet remember :wink: I doubt whether anyone can come up with any definitive figures/percentages - there is no formal system in existence for reporting affected dogs & never has been, just as we have no way of knowing exactly how many dogs in the country are affected with Hip Dysplasia for example.
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No, I'm not interested in the other rescue cockers myself, two dogs is enough for now :D But I am trying to help them rehome by posting pictures for them and emailing people looking for cockers etc. It's such a shame for that gorgeous red from the pound, he's a stunning dog and has had such a confusing life so far :cry:
I can see what you mean Jane, it would be difficult to poll it as not all dogs who have suffered have definitely had rage, not all dogs WITH rage would be recorded, and then only a huge study of owners of solid cockers could give even the slightest idea of the occurence.
I imagine there is a fair bit of presumption going on if there was such a press uproar too. If a cocker bites someone, do some owners automatically have it put down or presume it has rage because it happens to be a golden cocker? Could happen. Yet all breeds can be dominant or aggressive for various reasons.
I really feel for the owners who have suffered true rage syndrome with their dogs though, it must be the most awful situation to be in as presumably if all else fails the dog would have to be euthanised :cry: .
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But I am trying to help them rehome by posting pictures for them and emailing people looking for cockers etc. It's such a shame for that gorgeous red from the pound, he's a stunning dog and has had such a confusing life so far :cry:
I can see what you mean Jane, it would be difficult to poll it as not all dogs who have suffered have definitely had rage, not all dogs WITH rage would be recorded, and then only a huge study of owners of solid cockers could give even the slightest idea of the occurence.
I imagine there is a fair bit of presumption going on if there was such a press uproar too. If a cocker bites someone, do some owners automatically have it put down or presume it has rage because it happens to be a golden cocker? Could happen. Yet all breeds can be dominant or aggressive for various reasons.
I really feel for the owners who have suffered true rage syndrome with their dogs though, it must be the most awful situation to be in as presumably if all else fails the dog would have to be euthanised :cry: .
I couldn't agree more as its sad that a cocker who people say is aggressive for what they think is no reason is rage, how do they really know its for no reason. I've come across many a dog who is fear aggressive, hand shy, or dominant (won't come off the sofa until they've bitten their owner, etc) and those owners don't know the difference between these issues, and just because its a solid coloured cocker they may then think its rage 1st yet if it were any other breed they may think something else.
I have a dominant cocker who is hard work sometimes if I let her—I know this and respond accordingly, but if she were in another home who doesn't understand this she could be labelled and I dread to think what could happen.
Lets face it out there some people can't distinguish between play growls and the real thing, which is very scary for the dogs involved.
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A friend of a friend has a golden cocker that they swear as rage syndrome - and then you hear that the husband 'plays' with the dog by holding its head to the ground, the kids (who are a nightmare) are encouraged to be rough with her, and she never goes out for a walk. My friend begged them not to get a dog because she knew they wouldn't look after it properly....
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Our finnish breedclub has been collecting information on ragecases in Finland, and they have a list of dogs(and their pedigrees) that have been put to sleep due to rage. This list is not public yet, but there has been discussion on making the list "open" for everyone to see. Of course this list concist only of registered dogs, and only the ones whose owners have informed our breedclub.
I have never myself had a rage case, but my friend had a golden male, who was put to sleep last summer due to rage. He was only 1 year old :cry: . He was a very nice dog in between his "fits". But I know my friend made the right decision. There was no living with a dog like that.
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Hi Kelly,
It is impossible to state even approximately how common RS is in cockers for various reasons. Not all cockers with RS are registered with the KC. Some are not registered at all and some are registered with the DLRC which do not issue BRS about the numbers they register like the KC do. Not all cases of RS are reported to me and a good many owners have their dog put to sleep and do not want to talk about it for obvious reasons.
I don't think that is the issue really - you would not have wanted to own a cocker with RS would you that attacked your children? Even one case is one too many. I do deal with a good many cases but have contacts from all over the world. Sites like mine have now been set up in Japan and Germany. It is evident that temperament is clearly a problem in today's cockers (not all of them have RS). I believe that temperament is so important otherwise we will lose the "merry cocker" with the waggy tail.
It is not just the golden ones that are affected, I would say it is just as common among the black ones and affects both males and females, although probably slightly more males involved.
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A friend of a friend has a golden cocker that they swear as rage syndrome - and then you hear that the husband 'plays' with the dog by holding its head to the ground, the kids (who are a nightmare) are encouraged to be rough with her, and she never goes out for a walk. My friend begged them not to get a dog because she knew they wouldn't look after it properly....
Its so sad the things some dogs have to endure. I know of a dog who had a similar life and was rehomed at the age of 2 to another branch of the family and he now has a loving home. The downside is that he's suffering from a few problems coping in his new home, which is understandable and not helped by a trainers wife who immediately suggested rage without even looking at the dog (not helped by my friend panicking and making it sound much worse than it is).
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Linda,
Yes, I quite agree that even one case is a case too many. I also agree that people should be informed. I just don't like the rumours that suggest that ALL red/golden cockers should be avoided like the plague. It seems some people know nothing about it (which is worrying), and others think that cockers (especially reds) are vicious full stop.
If Toby began to show symptoms of rage I would be heartbroken, but hopefully it would not put me off cockers because from what I've read, it IS quite rare and most golden cockers are placid dogs.
I do think it's worrying that the information on pedigrees and rage cases is not public. I can see the reasons why it might not be, but people deserve the information to make balanced decisions on where to obtain their dogs, particularly if they are opting for solid colours.
What worries me is that I knew little about rage before I agreed to take Toby, and I just love cockers and no colour in particular, but maybe if I had known more I might have thought twice about adopting him. Yet that would have been such a shame as he seems to have a very even temperament. I just hope people can put the problem into perspective.
I think the work you do with the site and helpline is fantastic by the way.
Kelly x
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Kelly your quite right about being unfairly put off a solid colour.
When we were deciding on the right dog for us, a cocker was the top of the list, we went through endless books who all made reference to rage syndrome in the solid colours, we also spoke to breeders and our vet who all but a few also made reference to rage as we had children and all sugested that a roan would be our best option.
I now know that although rage syndrome does occur in cockers it is very rare and unfairly pin pointed to this specific breed
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We where also talked out of getting a solid colour cocker (red) by a breeder ( she was trying to sell us Billy at the time) but now we are looking forward to extending our cocker family with a solid black(liver roan proving too hard to get hold of) Our vet also commented when we took Billy into see him that we would have to watch his temperament as we had a child :? If you have ignorance and bias on this level what chance does the merry cocker image have?:(
Michelle
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:shock: I would change your vet Michelle :wink: My vet was delighted to see Indie when I first took her, he said how much he loved the breed and that they made excellent pets for young families, of course providing you follow the normal common sence rules :)
We did consider a gold at the very beginning, but after reading about the slight possibility of rage we decidied against, BUT I don't think that I would have the same opinion now. Providing we go to a reputable breeder etc, then I would consider a solid cocker :) Its such a shame that a minority of people hold this view of cockers :roll: but thats there choice, I guess :? Its like me I have opinions of certain breeds, which maybe are not deserved, but once you hear of a couple of incidents and then the press decide to witchunt and report every single incident with the said particular breed, it becomes so easy for Jo Public to draw their own conclusions :roll: :? I hope that makes some kind of sence :)
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:shock: I would change your vet Michelle :wink: My vet was delighted to see Indie when I first took her, he said how much he loved the breed and that they made excellent pets for young families, of course providing you follow the normal common sence rules :)
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All ready done Emma, :D
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When we were looking for a puppy we didn't really mind what colour we got and I phoned breeders of particolours and solids. Eric had said if we had the choice he'd like a red/gold but we'd just be happy to get a well bred puppy. I asked every breeder that I phoned if they had any seen a case of rage in any dog, not necessarily their own.
Everyone I phoned was really good and told me everything they knew about it but only one lady had see a cocker with rage and she was involved in breed rescue. None of the particolour breeders tried to put me off looking for a red in order to sell me one of their puppies. I was really pleased with all the information that I got from them and from books and the internet and made an informed choice - dont' know what we'd do without him :D
Our vet loves him and admires him whenever he's in. He did tell me on our first visit that they were strong willed - nothing I hadn't heard from all the breeders I phoned. :lol: :lol:
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Yes, during this getting-to-know-you phase, Toby has definitely shown himself to be strong-willed :lol: We have tried to keep him downstairs but he has somehow learned that when the kids open the stairgate they inevitably don't shut it properly...and he has figured out how to get it to open so he can go chase the cat :lol: .
I didn't realise how intelligent cockers were, he seems very crafty compared to Millie...I'm sure he KNOWS how cute he is and uses it against us :wink:
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I have heard of a blue with diagnosed rage, that was put to sleep.
Rage is also seen in Springers, Golden Retrievers to name but 2 :(
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I've actually heard of a springer which may have had rage. My friend's childhood springer was apparently a lovely dog who had fits of rage so it sounds very much like he had RS. He was pts and she now insists spaniels in general are evil :cry: She was bitten by him quite badly though.
Springers still seem to have a better reputation than cockers though, or so it seems.
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I have heard of a blue with diagnosed rage, that was put to sleep.
Rage is also seen in Springers, Golden Retrievers to name but 2 :(
There is a blue featured in the Case History section on Linda's site interestingly enough, although this case has a happier outcome than some.
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theres plently of other breeds that are alot more agressive yet they dont have the same stamp on them.
Actually the same thing happens to other breeds where there is adverse media attention - Rottweillers have a pretty undeserved reputation based on a few highly publicised incidents in the past. Bull Terriers at the moment are unfairly being branded as dangerous because of all the media furore over Princess Anne's dogs & so it carries on........
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Yes, this is very true. My mum's dog is a mastiff and the comments people have made to her are ridiculous, he should be muzzled etc, but he is a big baby and is scared of everything :lol:
I grew up with breeds people think should be banned such as bullmastiffs and rottweilers and the stigma attached is a real pity, but unfortunately, when you have the yob culture walking around with mastiff breeds and Staffies etc with studded collars and names like Tyson, people become afraid based on a few incidents. Some of these breeds are already considered "dangerous dogs" in other countries when in actual fact the owners are often the danger. No breed, when handled appropriately, is dangerous.
It seems that this is different from the rage issue though because true RS is not a sign of bad ownership and is completely unpredictable, although there must be cases where inappropriate training and handling lead to behaviour problems which are wrongly passed off as "rage".
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No breed, when handled appropriately, is dangerous.
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By the same token, most breeds, handled inappropriately, can be dangerous. Take my mother's miniature Yorkie for example. (No, PLEASE TAKE MY MOTHER'S MINIATURE YORKIE!! - I wish someone would) :lol: :lol: :lol:
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When i worked in rescue, i found the worst dogs for snapping and biting, were the terriers. :shock: The bigger dogs were a lot easier to handle.
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No breed, when handled appropriately, is dangerous.
\".
By the same token, most breeds, handled inappropriately, can be dangerous. Take my mother's miniature Yorkie for example. (No, PLEASE TAKE MY MOTHER'S MINIATURE YORKIE!! - I wish someone would) :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol:
Totally agree.
Know what Indiesnan means about smaller dogs as well. My sister is a veterinary nurse and has met thousands of dogs, and she still maintains that smaller dogs are more often vicious. She has particularly mentioned Jack Russell's and Pekingnese. She now dreads them coming in, so in a way I do wonder if some of the vets people mentioned before have experienced a few bad-tempered cockers and this is what puts them off.
My sister has a phobia of Pekingnese dogs and if she sees them on TV at Crufts she rants at the TV saying they may look cute but they'll have people's hands off given half a chance :lol:
There must be lots of very nice Pekingnese dogs out there though.
Saying that, she DOES like cockers and said she hasn't had any recurrent problems with them during her twelve years in the job.
When I first said I was looking for a dog before we had Millie, she said "DON'T get a terrier, a toy breed and don't get a German Shepherd, apart from that everything is fine."
Weird as we had a GSD growing up who was a lovely dog.
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My old vet who was trained in South Africa greeted me by saying (and I quote) 'Oh dear a cocker! You know in South Africa we're trained not to worry about the Rottie, German Shepherd, Dobermann or even a Terrier - WATCH THE COCKER SPANIEL!! He's the one most likely to bite you. They are unreliable and unpredictable dogs. Don't be fooled by their cute floppy ears and melting eyes. They can be vicious things esp the solids' :shock:
This must have come from somewhere but what an introduction!!
When I had to go back, I was pleased that I saw a different vet and this time it was Georgia being seen. She said in the most tremulous voice ever 'Is she going to be okay with me because I know these gold ones are vicious' For a start, Georgia is chocolate and not gold! :roll:
I now have a new vet.
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Another interesting site is www.cockerspanieltac.co.uk put together by the newly formed temperment committee.
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Found that site very interesting. There was actually a section about possessiveness (of people) which I found helpful.
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Found that site very interesting. There was actually a section about possessiveness (of people) which I found helpful.
My first Cocker, Teddy was possessive of my son. Teddy was 7 years old when Duncan was born & people had advised me to "get rid of the dog before the baby arrives". No way would I have done that & there was no need. When we went out shopping, when people wanted to look at the baby (as they do) Teddy would growl & snarl - he wasn't letting anyone near HIS baby. I was really proud of him for guarding Duncan like he did. This was 25 years ago, & I used to leave the pram & dog tied up outside the shops (ooohhhh how times were different then!) but I knew no harm would come to them because of Teddy's attitude.
Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that even though Teddy was possessive of Duncan, it was in no way rage, he was just guarding his baby. He was as soft as grease with the family.
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Yes, Toby is very soft too, he just tends to guard the children a bit, but wit the unsettled life he's had so far it's hardly surprising.
I'd rather he didn't do it though, but we're working on it.
Made me smile actually as one of the family stories in our family is how my Nan used to leave my mum in her pram outside shops guarded by Timmy the border collie. He apparently thought mu mum was HIS baby too and he followed her everywhere.