For those people who have litter mates.........

[Jane S]

The other thing is that a lot of the people who advise against having litter mates have never actually had litter mates themselves. They advise against it because someone told them or they read it in a book. I'm not saying you have to have had experience to advise, but some people are very vehement in their posts when they are only talking from theory, not practical experience.

Actually that's not true - quite a few people on here who advise not to get litter mates have had practical experience of when things do go wrong either personally or through close involvement with other people who have had terrible problems. I have only mentioned a few of the cases I have come across over the years because I did not want to come across as too negative but these cases are real and they don't come out of any book!Whilst I can understand why owners of litter mates get defensive when others raise concern about their choices, there also seems to be resentment if those who do have experience of problems mention the possible drawbacks. As long as this is done politely (and in the main it is), then there should be no problem with anyone expressing their opinions and discussing the issue openly as this thread is doing.

[Rhona W]

i know 2 springers (sister/brother) who are not only dog aggressive but scared stiff of small children simply because they didn't meet many other dogs or kids when they were young.  And they are over-bonded and 3/4 of the time completely ignore their owner.....and we avoid them if we see them on walks :-

But I imagine that is the fault of the owner isn't it, rather than the dogs? If you see what I mean. If the owners had taken the time to socialise them, they could be well adjusted dogs?    And maybe if the people had only had one dog, it would still be under socialised - just not over bonded with a litter mate. But it could still ignore the owners. 
I know my pups are only 6 months (almost) old so perhaps it is too early for me to have an opinion yet! 

[Rhona W]

The other thing is that a lot of the people who advise against having litter mates have never actually had litter mates themselves. They advise against it because someone told them or they read it in a book. I'm not saying you have to have had experience to advise, but some people are very vehement in their posts when they are only talking from theory, not practical experience.

Actually that's not true - quite a few people on here who advise not to get litter mates have had practical experience of when things do go wrong either personally or through close involvement with other people who have had terrible problems. I have only mentioned a few of the cases I have come across over the years because I did not want to come across as too negative but these cases are real and they don't come out of any book!Whilst I can understand why owners of litter mates get defensive when others raise concern about their choices, there also seems to be resentment if those who do have experience of problems mention the possible drawbacks. As long as this is done politely (and in the main it is), then there should be no problem with anyone expressing their opinions and discussing the issue openly as this thread is doing.

I didn't say everybody - I know some of you are very experienced - but some people do. Just like some people have told me I shouldn't have a gold cocker because they have rage issues. Despite never owning one or knowing anyone with one. And that isn't aimed at people on COL, it is people in general.
And that was my point. I did say people should/could warn others of issues that may arise, but not to the point of berating them if they do go ahead with their decision. As you say, there is nothing wrong with openly and politely discussing an issue. And I apologise if I have offended any one so far.

[Helen]

i know 2 springers (sister/brother) who are not only dog aggressive but scared stiff of small children simply because they didn't meet many other dogs or kids when they were young.  And they are over-bonded and 3/4 of the time completely ignore their owner.....and we avoid them if we see them on walks :-

But I imagine that is the fault of the owner isn't it, rather than the dogs? If you see what I mean. If the owners had taken the time to socialise them, they could be well adjusted dogs?    And maybe if the people had only had one dog, it would still be under socialised - just not over bonded with a litter mate. But it could still ignore the owners. 
I know my pups are only 6 months (almost) old so perhaps it is too early for me to have an opinion yet! 

oh absolutely the fault of the owner - who is believe it or not, intending to work these dogs as he's always had springers.... (plus 2 very assertive springers), and i do agree about the one dog not socialised etc scenario - it's just that the situation is completely exacerbated with these 2 siblings.  

i don't have littermates, i've seen worst case littermates and fallout from unsuccessful pairs appearing on rescue sites - and that's as far as my experience goes - you're opinions are really valuable & interesting as you have littermates and are working hard to ensure these issues don't arise.

[Rhona W]

you have littermates and are working hard to ensure these issues don't arise.

And who knows - without the advice from COL mine may have ended up like those springers (Heaven forbid!) as I would not have thought about walking them seperately!

[PennyB]

i know 2 springers (sister/brother) who are not only dog aggressive but scared stiff of small children simply because they didn't meet many other dogs or kids when they were young.  And they are over-bonded and 3/4 of the time completely ignore their owner.....and we avoid them if we see them on walks :-

But I imagine that is the fault of the owner isn't it, rather than the dogs? If you see what I mean. If the owners had taken the time to socialise them, they could be well adjusted dogs?    And maybe if the people had only had one dog, it would still be under socialised - just not over bonded with a litter mate. But it could still ignore the owners. 
I know my pups are only 6 months (almost) old so perhaps it is too early for me to have an opinion yet! 

oh absolutely the fault of the owner - who is believe it or not, intending to work these dogs as he's always had springers.... (plus 2 very assertive springers), and i do agree about the one dog not socialised etc scenario - it's just that the situation is completely exacerbated with these 2 siblings.  

I agree but this is the problem we're talking about --- the amount of time and energy that goes into making sure the dogs are properly socialised because a lot don't realise the lengths you have to go to ensure this is done properly etc. and won't listen as they don't believe you (or want to).

As for reading about littermate rearing in books I really don't think its mentioned in books either

With rescue pups (from rescues I deal with) we will foster them in pairs as at that age (6weeks+) its ok but will never rehome them in pairs (no matter how much the prospective owners slag you off for it or try to argue the toss) (mind you we get slagged off if we won't rehome some a pup at all )

[Rhona W]

I agree but this is the problem we're talking about --- the amount of time and energy that goes into making sure the dogs are properly socialised because a lot don't realise the lengths you have to go to ensure this is done properly etc. and won't listen as they don't believe you.

As for reading about littermate rearing in books I really don't think its mentioned in books either

No I didn't realise. (But I think that can also be said of people who only have one puppy!) I listened. I took the advice given. And I am putting the time in to socialise them seperately - hence the hour in the rain this morning, rather than only 30 minutes. 

As for books - litter mates are mentioned in The Perfect Puppy, but it just advises about socialising and spnding time apart I think, rather than saying don't do it.

[Cob-Web]

The other thing is that a lot of the people who advise against having litter mates have never actually had litter mates themselves. They advise against it because someone told them or they read it in a book. I'm not saying you have to have had experience to advise, but some people are very vehement in their posts when they are only talking from theory, not practical experience.

I don't have practical experience of the problems having litter mates may lead to - but I know from talking to reputable breeders  that they would only home two pups together in exceptional circumstances.

When I see a post about someone taking on two pups at the same time - my thoughts are the same as they would be if someone said they were going to look at a litter advertised in a classified advert. It rings warning bells in my mind about the experience and motive of the breeder and the future health and temperment of the puppies 

[Nicola]

Penel, in response to your original question, I've held off so far cos they're not cockers but you might be interested anyway in a couple of first hand experiences I've seen of people having adult littermates...

Firstly my ex boyfriend's parents have two sibling Jack Russells and they are a nightmare despite having been well socialised and trained separately with people and dogs. They are now 6 years old and they were fine until they hit about 12 months and then they began to fight really quite viciously. They are both males and basically they can't be left together at all or they will fight and when they fight they really mean it, they've both had stitches from wounds the other has inflicted on more than one occasion. It's a nightmare for the family as they don't want to give either of them up so basically for the last 5 years they've had to try to keep them apart as much as possible. They sleep and are fed in separate rooms and his mum works as a florist so one of them goes to work with her during the day while the other one stays at home with his dad who is retired. It's a real shame as individually each dog is lovely, they are friendly with people and other dogs, just not with each other.

The other case is very similar but involves two springer spaniels. My stepdad has two springers (not siblings) and he's a member of a gundog club, I used to go along with him to shoots and training sessions before I moved away to go to uni. When I was about 16 a couple joined the club who'd just got Springer litter sisters. The man and his wife handled the dogs separately so they got individual work but problems obviously developed.. I don't know the full details but when the dogs were about two years old they rehomed one of them because they weren't getting on; I remember this because we fostered her for a few weeks in our house as my stepdad is part of Springer rescue in NI. Thankfully she got a new home so it turned out ok but not exactly as her original owners had imagined I would think  

Not very cheerful stories and I'm certainly not suggesting the same will happen in every case but it's just what I've seen myself  

[Jeano]

Can I please add -that Zak and Kes were great fun,I never had to seperate them-just as well-no tails to grab-as I did with Merlin and Shep.BUT I can say their sister Lily is not the same temperment as our boys were.SHE growled at poor Zak when he was round with us one day visiting-she didn't mind Kes,BUT Lyn had recently to sell one of Lily's pups-bitch she kept for breeding-as the mum wouldn't accept the poor thing-she is happy now with new owners-BUT Lily WOULD asccept another bitch-same age as hers brought in.Zak couldn't understand WHY Lily was like she was-probably because he was strong male .Heidi their mum was great.I have a super photo of Zak and Kes aged about 6 sitting/standing eating ice cream cornets-side by side which I was holding for them.No fuss/bother.Jeano

[ali]

it's been really interesting reading all of this but i can see why the owners on this site with littermate pups might be getting a bit defensive. i hope they don't start to feel that they had better not ask for help with future problems as a result, for fear of being slam dunked with the littermate issue.

if people who have chosen to buy littermates do it fully aware of the risks and prepared to work hard to ensure that their dogs lead a happy and healthy life then in my opinion that's got to be better for the pups than the lives that many poor dogs end up leading in this country. if things go wrong down the line, then possibly one will need rehoming. this is obviously not what anyone wants but i'm sure there are plenty of dogs that need rehoming for other reasons, such as a death or illness in the family or other changes in circumstances. if i got run over tomorrow my OH, who works long hours, would find it very hard to keep barkley. he's lucky that he has plenty of family around that would try to help but he still might decide that it was better for barkley to go to a new family with a new 'mum' who can be with him 24-7. this is a gamble that we have taken on barkley's happiness, and not one that we took lightly, yet we still feel we are right to have got him.

i've probably gone completely off track, and i'm sorry if i've stepped out of line, but i'm just trying to say that everyone has a different opinion on this and i just wanted to make sure that some people didn't start to feel that theirs was categorically wrong, when it might not actually be for them or their dogs.

[Joules]

Well said ali! 

[Rhona W]

Well said ali! 

I agree! But then I would, wouldn't I? 

it's been really interesting reading all of this but i can see why the owners on this site with littermate pups might be getting a bit defensive. i hope they don't start to feel that they had better not ask for help with future problems as a result, for fear of being slam dunked with the littermate issue.

I totally agree with this bit! I needed to ask for help the other day over a food issue, and I started by saying I was reluctant to ask for advice. But actually everyone was very kind and helpful - no negative comments at all. But every time this topic crops up, it makes me wary again. 

[Cayley]

When I see a post about someone taking on two pups at the same time - my thoughts are the same as they would be if someone said they were going to look at a litter advertised in a classified advert. It rings warning bells in my mind about the experience and motive of the breeder and the future health and temperment of the puppies 

Same here.

[CraftySam]

it's been really interesting reading all of this but i can see why the owners on this site with littermate pups might be getting a bit defensive. i hope they don't start to feel that they had better not ask for help with future problems as a result, for fear of being slam dunked with the littermate issue.

if people who have chosen to buy littermates do it fully aware of the risks and prepared to work hard to ensure that their dogs lead a happy and healthy life then in my opinion that's got to be better for the pups than the lives that many poor dogs end up leading in this country. if things go wrong down the line, then possibly one will need rehoming. this is obviously not what anyone wants but i'm sure there are plenty of dogs that need rehoming for other reasons, such as a death or illness in the family or other changes in circumstances. if i got run over tomorrow my OH, who works long hours, would find it very hard to keep barkley. he's lucky that he has plenty of family around that would try to help but he still might decide that it was better for barkley to go to a new family with a new 'mum' who can be with him 24-7. this is a gamble that we have taken on barkley's happiness, and not one that we took lightly, yet we still feel we are right to have got him.

i've probably gone completely off track, and i'm sorry if i've stepped out of line, but i'm just trying to say that everyone has a different opinion on this and i just wanted to make sure that some people didn't start to feel that theirs was categorically wrong, when it might not actually be for them or their dogs.

Ali, I completely agree.  I have just read the thread from the beginning for the first time, and you have put in to words my thoughts. I've said this before, so forgive me for repeating myself, but I think this forum is as valuable as it is because everyone is free to have their opinion.  We all have opinions and we form these in different ways.  For me, personal experience, either mine or someone elses, is invaluable when forming my opinions. Probably because I've been caught out on too many occassions by something somebody heard or somebody read. 

For a while now I have been concerned that anyone with littermates could be reluctant to seek help from the forum for fear of the reaction they may get.  That would be a great shame. After all I'm sure at one point or another we've all needed help and support be it with our individual dogs or littermates.