CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: ips on March 13, 2017, 10:12:33 AM
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My wc is truly rubbish on a lead despite continual attempts with every method known to mankind and some made up ones. And yet off lead she will walk to heel even in areas of high distraction, go figure. So a few questions for discussion
Has anyone else experienced the same as in good off lead rubbish on lead.
Has anyone actually got a cocker good on a lead cos I have yet to see one.
How many (like me) have just about given up on lead training.
Of those that have managed it (if there are any) how the heck did you manage it.
Ian
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It depends on what you mean by 'good'. I've never achieved heel walking on the lead but we do have reasonably good loose-leash walking. It requires constant reinforcement, though.
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I would consider loose leash good enough, hats off to you LG I have all but given up. Luckily she rarely"needs" to be on a lead, probably part of the problem
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I was forced to tackle loose lead walking when Henry's recall went AWOL last summer. My dog walker refused to take him anymore because his lead walking was bad too (my, there were some tears shed then about what a terrible job I'd done with my dog).
I put him back on the lead and did nothing but train loose-lead walking every time we left the house, whatever the environment. It took about 3-4 weeks. It was NOT fun and I doubt I would have persisted if off-lead walking was an option at the time.
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What technique did you use ?
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I kept a diary of my training here: http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=117627.msg1692288#msg1692288
I started at home with the training outlined on the videos I mention, and then took it 'on the road.'
Now we are at the stage where I get a bit of pulling when we have just arrived somewhere new or fun, and I have to remind him that it's not acceptable by not moving, or turning away from where he wants to go. It only takes a few minutes to settle him down. I use a long (6ft) lead so he can walk along and snuffle the bushes and hedgerows if he wants without putting pressure on the leash.
I still reward self-correction. And if Henry suddenly sees something he wants to get to and makes a lunge, I stop dead if he can't reach it, or if he can, turn him away from it. Then I often reward a return to my side by walking him over to the thing of great interest. So he is learning that he only gets what he wants on my terms, but that I can often be very reasonable and let him have what he wants as long as there is no tension on the lead.
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So very similar in many respects to a "leave it" or "break away" training thing. I tried similar with mine but to no avail. I have all but given up to be honest 😞 good job she heels off a lead or she would be on pets for homes. Lol. Only kidding.
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For me, it's a case of picking my battles. I had no choice but to get this sorted, given that where we live dictates a fair amount of lead walking. So I have focused on that and kept other training at a lower level for now. There's only so much failure I can take at one time. ;)
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Just read some of your diary, interesting reading and I think very common to all spaniel handlers. The closest i got was rewarding with ball for walking at heel building the time at heel up incrementally but I am embarrassed to admit I did not continue long enough or was consistent enough. If I was in similar shoes to you I would have to knuckle down and sort it as you have but she is rarely on a lead so I have been very lapse. It's flamin embarrassing on the occasions she has to be such as around a town if were away for for weekend.
At game shows etc we play a game called spot the spaniel on loose lead, we rarely see any. I believe e even most triallers don't even bother as even they struggle with it. I raise my cap to anyone who has trained a loose leash.
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Like you, I have tried every method known to man plus a couple of magic harnesses too. Nothing worked apart from the Halti head collar but Millie hated that so I decided not to use it.
What changed things for me was sticking to one method and not giving up and trying different things.
The method that has worked wonders for me is the treat method. A pocket full of chopped up cocktail sausages to be exact. And a slip lead inst3ad of a harness or collar. She is a 100% better than a month ago, still not perfect by any means, but I no longer come in from a walk and head straight to the fridge for a beer.
My advice is to find a method and stick to it, even at times when it doesn't seem to be working.
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well it took us over 3 years to get Gemma to walk to heel on a lead :013:
We tried fig 8 leads, walking in circles, walking backwards ( that was a waste of time- 15 mins walking and we had not left the garden).
We did have success using a Canny Collar but in the end it was a very short tight lead that clinched it.
Now on or off the lead she is "close" unless given the "okay" command where she sprints off to do her thing.
BUT, (she is a spaniel so got to be a but". In the field on lead she pulls like a train. It is easier for her to be off lead and walking close. We can only think that when she wears her yellow hi vis jacket (as she is the colour of a fox) she is in work mode and just wants to get on in there.
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well it took us over 3 years to get Gemma to walk to heel on a lead :013:
We tried fig 8 leads, walking in circles, walking backwards ( that was a waste of time- 15 mins walking and we had not left the garden).
We did have success using a Canny Collar but in the end it was a very short tight lead that clinched it.
Now on or off the lead she is "close" unless given the "okay" command where she sprints off to do her thing.
BUT, (she is a spaniel so got to be a but". In the field on lead she pulls like a train. It is easier for her to be off lead and walking close. We can only think that when she wears her yellow hi vis jacket (as she is the colour of a fox) she is in work mode and just wants to get on in there.
3 yrs, 😁 well at least there is hope 👍
Very similar to my experience, we tried everything incl figure eight, canny collar anti pull, stopping, turning round etc etc etc. I give up I really do 😁
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On lead walking is cracked with Coral. A tin of sardines (emptied into a polythene bag in my pocket) I held some of the fish at my left knee while walking - her nose was pinned to my fingers nibbling the fish treat....while I continually praised her and said the "heel" command. Took 3 weeks, 3 times a day but she's the best of our four at walking to heel on a lead!
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You describe mine perfectly.
And the answer was a WYDWL harness.
On a collar my wife cannot hold him. She is tiny and has a back problem.
But she does just fine with a WYDWL.
Just the other day I accidentally clipped on to normal head collar. Almost at once I wondered why my dog was pulling. It's like some kind of switch was flipped.
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Hi, somehow missed this thread yesterday, despite the word "lead" which usually flashes at me as its THE biggest issue, like with LG I've shed more tears over the blinkin dog lead than any of the puppy problems! We have a hall cupboard full of leads, collars,and harnesses, all of which have tbeir advantages and disadvantages but none of them work wonders and in the end its down to the handler/dog and consistant training, I believe, is the only real long term answer. We're no where near there yet but since I learned to accept that it IS a cocker trait and globally, there must be thousands of us in the same boat, I've become more accepting and try not to get into such a lather about it, - although I agree, it can be embarressing in a crowded street. We train it all the time HUmphrey's on the lead and alrhough progress is slow, we're definately making headway. LG's videos have been a great help, I've also found the lighter the lead the better (off lead is no problem, so less of a burdon it is for the dog, the better I think), the best one I have is a cheap elasticated thing I bought in Aldi!!
Also, try to avoid extending your arm, - it is tiring but if you can manage to keep your arm straight at your side, it does seem to help - in a crowd I tend to hold it with both hands, infront of my body. And if anyone disputes the fact that its NOT in the breed, ask them if they've ever seen a training video featuring a cocker! I've yet to find one!!! ;)
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You describe mine perfectly.
And the answer was a WYDWL harness.
On a collar my wife cannot hold him. She is tiny and has a back problem.
But she does just fine with a WYDWL.
Just the other day I accidentally clipped on to normal head collar. Almost at once I wondered why my dog was pulling. It's like some kind of switch was flipped.
I think this is the perfect example why harnesses don't work - the dog doesn't learn anything wearing a harness, it just makes it easier for the handler ;). If that's anyone wants for their dog it's fine, of course :D. I need my dog to walk to heel, or "close" on lead and off lead in areas with distraction.......
Perseverance, time and consistency like all training is the key. I was at a working test on Sunday, not one dog was on a harness and all walked to heel beautifully. Some of the handlers that were there are professional dog trainers so have lots of time to invest in their dogs training unlike most of us who work and juggle training - it can be done, it just takes longer!
Figure of eights do work but only when your dog understands the command "heel". If you let your dog off the lead, recall and then tell it to heel, does it come back and drop into position? If the answer is yes, you are ready to start with more heel work on the lead. If the answer is no - it's back to basics again on whichever part let you down.
Don't forget that your dogs hearing changes at 10 months old so just when you think all the commands are in place it's likely the word or the tone of your voice has changed to your dog......it's also the age that they start to develop more personality/confidence. It's that bit of cockers that I love most but also despair of at times!
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Like you, I have tried every method known to man plus a couple of magic harnesses too. Nothing worked apart from the Halti head collar but Millie hated that so I decided not to use it.
What changed things for me was sticking to one method and not giving up and trying different things.
The method that has worked wonders for me is the treat method. A pocket full of chopped up cocktail sausages to be exact. And a slip lead inst3ad of a harness or collar. She is a 100% better than a month ago, still not perfect by any means, but I no longer come in from a walk and head straight to the fridge for a beer.
My advice is to find a method and stick to it, even at times when it doesn't seem to be working.
I think you have hit the proverbial on the head. Frustration and impatience made me keep swapping about between methods. Maybe I should have another go but it drives me mad. I will have to try and sort it one way or the other.
Thanks
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I have tried literally everything but he still pulls like a train. I currently attend training classes and there are 3 cockers in the class. All of them have the same pulling issues.
The trainer spoke to me yesterday and even she has given up. She recommended a harness which I did buy and it did help but I can tell that he hates it and he stopped sniffing, stopped searching etc. Which I felt was totally unfair and taking away what a cocker loves to do. So I went back to a normal lead.
I am hoping that as he gets older he will calm down a bit and I will continue to stop when he pulls too hard and keep reminding him to heal.
I think I am coming to terms with the fact he is always going to pull.
Mine is fine off lead as well, its funny because in my class we do lead walking and the trainer can see the pulling. Then we do off lead walking and he is perfect :lol2:
Its like the lead is telling him to pull as hard as possible >:D
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I have tried literally everything but he still pulls like a train. I currently attend training classes and there are 3 cockers in the class. All of them have the same pulling issues.
The trainer spoke to me yesterday and even she has given up. She recommended a harness which I did buy and it did help but I can tell that he hates it and he stopped sniffing, stopped searching etc. Which I felt was totally unfair and taking away what a cocker loves to do. So I went back to a normal lead.
I am hoping that as he gets older he will calm down a bit and I will continue to stop when he pulls too hard and keep reminding him to heal.
I think I am coming to terms with the fact he is always going to pull.
Mine is fine off lead as well, its funny because in my class we do lead walking and the trainer can see the pulling. Then we do off lead walking and he is perfect :lol2:
Its like the lead is telling him to pull as hard as possible >:D
This good off lead bad on leaf seems to be a theme. Not just me then that considers that a lead or harness triggers some kind of reaction. I am convinced the dog feels safe on a lead and switches itself off as far as concentration is concerned then its scent instinct kicks in, my girl does not sniff the ground or follow an airborne scent when off lead but she does when restrained. That's my take on it.
Ps
I could open a shop with the amount of leads and harnesses' we have in a cupboard.
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My adult (4yo) worker is appalling on lead and it's totally my fault. I never follow through with enforcing heelwork on lead because I find training it really boring for one, and I'm usually in too much of a hurry to bother. I also have 2 other dogs which makes it more challenging/requires more effort. So we just argue over it, and invariably I just twist the slip lead into a figure of 8. Once winter comes around I tell myself I'm going to focus on heelwork during the dark evenings when we do more pavement walking, but I've managed to avoid doing that by just getting my dogs flashing collars and walking in the fields in the dark with a torch :005:. Funny, though, my puppy naturally walks to heel and I put that down to him being less confident. So who knows, he may actually turn out ok on lead (despite my rubbish training lol).
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I cracked the "walk at heel" problem quite quickly. The key I think was using a hand signal coupled with a frequent heel command.
The key thing is that the dog must not sneak past you. I held my arms out and finger pointed with the dog behind. Early on I used the walking stick for a while, just held out to block his path.
Any attempt to pass received a sharp "ah-ah". I don't use this much for anything else.
I used, unusually, NO-REWARDS. Any reward, even a "good-boy" was seen as permission to pass. You rewarded me so I've done it.
Any break-outs were handled by immediate "back-on-lead".
At first my arms were out all he time. Now it just comes up in response to a sneak attempt or I sense some danger maybe.
Make no mistake this dog is just bursting to run-ahead but will go a long way on a country track just dogging along behind.
This is very useful in areas that are safe but that I don't know well. Prevents the dog wandering onto a road I didn't know about.
It is I think because of this that the WYDWL works so well for us. Probably won't work on a "raring-to-go" pup.
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Interesting about the No Rewards - I've noticed this with Humphrey, he either takes it as a release signal or it breaks his concentration, don't quite know which, but I've stopped rewarding now until I finally release him and then he gets a mega treat!
I'm now trying to train a "walk behind" - mainly because I'm worried that one day he's going to pull me down the steps - but that'll be a story for another day! :005:
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I don't really like a 'walk behind' because Henry does a lot of his 'leisure' walking on the lead and I'm happy to let him walk along side or slightly in front as he enjoys following his nose, not me! It's only when he actually pulls that I stop and wait for him to self-correct. On busy roads I keep a shorter leash so he's nearer me and has no chance of darting into the road. As an aside, I saw someone walking ahead of their dog the other day - the dog was on an extendable lead and the lead was so long the dog was walking right out on the road and the owner had no idea! Not suggesting that any COLer would do such a daft thing, of course!
Bizzylizzy - we have steps out from the house to the garden and I often take Henry out on the lead when he needs a wee but not to then go careering off chasing the birds / squirrels / shadows. I have a foot injury at the moment which makes steps difficult so I've taken the opportunity to teach Henry not to pull me down the stairs. He has learned very quickly, possibly because he's often bursting for a wee, so the sooner he complies the sooner he gets to go! We do a sit-stay-release in stages so I go down a few steps first then he follows, until we get all the way down.
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I didn't make it clear, I'm afraid.
It's only off-lead that I have walking behind. This is because I use this so we can go off-lead on forest-tracks where there is the possibility of the odd vehicle. I don't want him off ahead and maybe unseen by an dangerous driver. Behind and eager to pass means I can grab the collar if anything turns up.
On lead we go with him a bit in front but in a relaxed kind of way.
Beware though that in the woods, the dog can stop suddenly and you stumble forward. It's easy to the hit the tail with your leg. This is I think the origin of the docking-practice. Would be quite easy to break it I feel.
Mainly in woods we are off lead of course. But sometimes we have "deer-restrictions in place.
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I once trained a lab who was known to pull his owner over to walk perfectly at heel in 10 minutes, other dogs have taken longer some will never ever do it well, it really does depend on the dog and how important it is to you.
Spaniels from working strains are generally difficult because they are led by the nose, Teals lead work is pretty bad but she is rarely on a lead for more than 3 or 4 minutes she doesn't pull hard but the lead is normally straight and not loose and she is often up on her back legs to get a better view and sniff.
On lead heel walking was not important to me where as off lead walking and hunting close was so that is where all my effort went, to be honest she is not a walk to heel type of dog and I doubt that no matter how much time I had spent training she would never have made a loose lead walker.
I think it is to easy to teach a puppy to pull by putting on a collar and lead when they are to young to understand what you want, I would use a harness on a young pup then switch to a lead and collar that they have not learned to pull on when I think the dog is old enough to take in the lesson.
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I didn't make it clear, I'm afraid.
It's only off-lead that I have walking behind. This is because I use this so we can go off-lead on forest-tracks where there is the possibility of the odd vehicle. I don't want him off ahead and maybe unseen by an dangerous driver. Behind and eager to pass means I can grab the collar if anything turns up.
On lead we go with him a bit in front but in a relaxed kind of way.
Beware though that in the woods, the dog can stop suddenly and you stumble forward. It's easy to the hit the tail with your leg. This is I think the origin of the docking-practice. Would be quite easy to break it I feel.
Mainly in woods we are off lead of course. But sometimes we have "deer-restrictions in place.
I actually differ on this I prefer her slightly in front rather than a tight heel or behind. That way I can keep an eye on her in my peripheral vision.
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I once trained a lab who was known to pull his owner over to walk perfectly at heel in 10 minutes, other dogs have taken longer some will never ever do it well, it really does depend on the dog and how important it is to you.
Spaniels from working strains are generally difficult because they are led by the nose, Teals lead work is pretty bad but she is rarely on a lead for more than 3 or 4 minutes she doesn't pull hard but the lead is normally straight and not loose and she is often up on her back legs to get a better view and sniff.
On lead heel walking was not important to me where as off lead walking and hunting close was so that is where all my effort went, to be honest she is not a walk to heel type of dog and I doubt that no matter how much time I had spent training she would never have made a loose lead walker.
I think it is to easy to teach a puppy to pull by putting on a collar and lead when they are to young to understand what you want, I would use a harness on a young pup then switch to a lead and collar that they have not learned to pull on when I think the dog is old enough to take in the lesson.
Same here Jeff. I have all but given up with lead training in favour of a good reliable off lead heal. Still hoping that murphys law harness will work for the rare occasions we are in a town.
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I hadn't intended using behind as a way if walking but just think it could be useful in certain situations where you might want to put yourself between your dog and something else in an emergency , in a confined area for example....
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Training Coral this evening and mostly had her on lead walking at heel, it occurred to me that it's really easy to get the lead in the wrong position on a dog and thought I would share the information I learned at class:
Assuming the dog is on your left hand side, the lead should be vertical from the dog, holding the handle loop in your right hand and leading/guiding the dog with your left hand - the lead across the front of your body.
The loop of the lead should be high under the ears which allows the lead to be vertical. Ideally a slip lead.
The dog won't pull as it's uncomfortable to do so, instead they will walk with a slack lead (well, most of the time......we are talking cockers here ;))
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I really must choose my words more carefully on here.
I dont really care if my dog is right behind me, has his nose, head or rump beside my leg.
All I do is stick out my arm and if the end of his tail disappears out in front then I call him back and stick him on the lead.
He caught on really quickly and is reliable enough to cross a quiet road doing this.
And he does not pull on a WYWDL. This is enough for me.
I don't care which side he walks except on busy roads where he is away from the traffic and I hold the lead any old way that takes my fancy.
We dog quietly around on roads and I hardly know he's on lead.
When he scents the forest, Golf-course, farmers-field, then he goes for it and keeps a range of a 100 yards or so.
Does the odd bog-off but recalls with a few shouts.
I don't go for machine perfection, just coping safely is fine for me.
He passes horses, piles of poo, other dogs, chickens, ducks, cattle, probably Sheep but I take no chances here and he takes virtually no notice. He does not eat or roll in nasties.
Really he's only got one thing one his mind.
Finding the places we do ball-working and showing me how clever he is at it.
He was trained by three different people and we all do it a bit differently. He stays half time with me and half-time with my son and family. They tell me that after a few days with me he enjoys a good rest.It's a dogs-life really.
Fantastic animals these Cockers, so intelligent and quick to learn but with loads of opinion.
And what a sight when the low-sun hits the gold coat and it lights up like fire.
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Not counting my pheasant poults BUT we seem to be making fantastic progress. Something has clicked and I have enjoyed (and I mean enjoyed) two days or rather evening walks of about one mile on a perfect loose lead, apart from about three occasions when she got to the end of the lead (not pulling though) when we were getting close to the footpath were she knows she will be let off to hunt, I can forgive this for now but I did stop on each occasion and repositioned her. Slip lead with all of the lead out and eze has been at perfect heel. I am not sure how this has happened, I have been doing a lot of off lead heel training and also had a few walks with the WYDWL lead kindly donated by murphys law, maybe its a combination of things I am not sure but either way I am a very happy chap.
I said heel just the once and started to walk without any further vocal command or praise as I have a suspicion that in certain contexts "good girl" has become a release command.
Going for a hat trick tonight so fingers crossed 👍
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:clapping: - let us know how you've got on this evening!! ;)
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Mrs ips joined us, historically she never behaves as well when her mum is around. She was not as good as last two days, she got to the end of the lead quite a few times but was not pulling as such. We are definitely getting better no doubt about that but tonight was not as good as I would have liked. Anyway shouldn't be too disappointed considering the pulling is now a learned behaviour which I blame myself for. Onwards and upwards 😊
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Onwards and upwards 😊
But not too far forwards...
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Ha, yes and that 😁
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Another walk this evening just eze and I. She was good as gold loose lead all the way, she got out of position three times when we got close to the off lead part of the walk but wasn't pulling. I stopped gently repositioned her and gave her a stroke. She is definitely trying now and definitely knows what is expected. I am a happy man 😊
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Sounds wonderful! Well done, and I'm encouraged by your success.
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Thank you.
Its taken two years of trying everything. I am not sure what or why its clicked all of a sudden but I suspect it's the off lead heel training I have been doing. Wrong way round really but there you go 😁
Concluded that getting frustrated and giving a lead pop or whatever just doesn't get through, neither does the going in opposite direction. Have decided calmly stopping and gently repositioning her to touch my left leg then giving verbal praise seems to get it through to her as to what I expect. I was determined to sort it but admit that I was close to defeat 😉
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Well done, both man and dog.
There are certain things where I've found that Henry needs to make the choice to do what I want. I just need to be clear about what that is. With the lead training, the repositioning and praise really worked for us. A pop on the lead or walking the other way tells the dog what he's doing wrong (pulling ahead) but doesn't (in my experience) tell the dog what you DO want.
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Exactly.
I usually try to capture what I want and work from there. Until very recently I hadn't been able to "capture" loose lead 😊
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You have worked it out correctly I believe.
Off-lead heel training was much easier to get working than stopping on-collar pulling. I've never really managed this. It's OK if I go quickly but my wife is tiny and slow walking. Then he'll pull me on a collar.
But then I switched to WYDWL and instantly no pulling. Don't think this will happen if you have not got heel walking in place.
Anyway, enjoy! I hope you don't "slip-back". 18-months now and the recipe still works for me. Actually I think it's getting better.
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Thanks
Yes I agree with you. If they don't know that heel actually means close heal then you have little chance of the behaviour being offered on a lead. The WYDWL did work and the couple of times I used it could well have helped matters BUT for me I need to be able to use a slip when were working as its the quickest and easiest to use. Its very odd why all of a sudden its clicked into place but having said that I have noticed with various other parts of training that once she has "got it" then it becomes reliable. I think she is much better if she is allowed to work things out for herself. I suppose this is the crux of capturing and shaping. I am not thinking that were sorted or that the pulling will not emerge from time to time but were ten times better than even two weeks ago so I remain happy....for now 😊
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Update
Sunday evening walk was good again, this time instead of doing a one mile circular with a three hundred yard off lead section I upped the ante and did a half mile then turned and retraced my steps. This is a difficult scenario because once we turn she thinks (knows) we will be going into the field before going home so much pulling ensues. Pretty much perfect on the outward journey apart from the odd occasion she got to the end of the lead if she was on a scent (other dogs presumably) but I can forgive this because I let her stop and sniff as I don't want her to see this lead training as a boring walk for my benefit (this could be the wrong approach but I am thinking out the box given the history of the pulling behaviour) on the inward leg as I suspected she got in front eager to get to the field. I stopped said nothing calmly picked her up a few inches and repositioned her touching my left leg, gave her a stroke and a good girl. Had to do this about four times but she never pulled as such she just got to end of lead. My theory is to make heel a pleasant place to be not somewhere she should be anxious about hence the praise at heel and no frustration or lead pops or angry vocal. Improving every day I just need to remember to be consistent. Writing it all down on here will give me a reference point should I ever need a reminder.
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This describes exactly my approach and we've had a lot of success with it. I let Henry get to the end of the lead for a sniff if he doesn't pull once he gets there (I sometimes help by stepping towards him). It's his walk too, after all. If he does forge ahead out of excitement, I stop and wait. He will often sit, have a ponder, then come back to my side of his own accord. Might happen two or three times when he's eager to get somewhere.
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I am pleased to hear that its been successful LG that gives me the confidence to keep doing it in the same way. I have always been of the opinion that I want eze to do what I want because she wants to as well not because she has no choice or is scared of the consequence of none compliance (hope that makes sense) so in my mind I am trying to make on lead walks fun and at the side of my leg to be the best place to be, for the last month or so I have only given food rewards/treats or ball etc when she is at heel (as I typed I realised I have got inconsistent with that so must try to remember, only at heal) no idea how much benefit this serves but there you go 😁
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It's certainly very helpful for me. The trainer told me to be 'firm' with Blue, and lead pops were advocated when concentration was lost, but I can see that firmness could easily turn into grumpiness if the desired behaviour is not forthcoming. I'm going to try the stop and wait, followed by gentle repositioning. Thank you!
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I am pleased its helpful. Believe me I have tried EVERYTHING incl lead pops and nothing worked. The lead pops make no difference whatsoever (on my bitch anyway) in fact I am now of the opinion that its counter productive (for us) you can yank her back al day long with either little pops or full on aversive pops and she would still pull your arm off. I don't know if she associates lead pops with heel being a bad place to be and effectively being strong willed by "I am not doing what you want just because your a grumpy old git and keep yanking my neck" but that is how I see it.
Lots of off lead heel with every good thing being given at heel including verbal praise even if you have to physically position her is my new theory. I treat her, release her, give her the ball all at heel including anything else I can think of.
If you try any of the above I would be very interested in your progress and I will continue to update my own progress or any further tweeks to the method that I may make for anyone remotely interested.
Ps
I use a slip lead but have it set very very loose and I always have the full lead out 👍
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Sorry to be completely dense :huh: - what do you mean by "lead pops" please?
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BizzyLizzy, a 'lead pop' is a quick tug on the lead, meant to bring the dog's focus back to you.
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A yank on the lead 😉
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Oh right - OK, thanks, - that's the way I always did it with my previous dogs ;) but I thought it was frowned upon these days? I got reprimanded by my last trainer for doing it :huh: Presumably you'd only do it when the dog's wearing harness, not a collar?
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Oh right - OK, thanks, - that's the way I always did it with my previous dogs ;) but I thought it was frowned upon these days? I got reprimanded by my last trainer for doing it :huh: Presumably you'd only do it when the dog's wearing harness, not a collar?
I think it's like the 'flick' method that's still taught with collar and lead rather than harness. Had no effect whatsoever on Henry, and I find adversives put me in a negative state of mind, which I don't enjoy.
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Oh right - OK, thanks, - that's the way I always did it with my previous dogs ;) but I thought it was frowned upon these days? I got reprimanded by my last trainer for doing it :huh: Presumably you'd only do it when the dog's wearing harness, not a collar?
I think it's like the 'flick' method that's still taught with collar and lead rather than harness. Had no effect whatsoever on Henry, and I find adversives put me in a negative state of mind, which I don't enjoy.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean! ...
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BL
Yep no effect at all on eze, the only effect was making me feel guilty for doing it to her. I am a big softie though 😁
Thing is a little tug doesn't work so the force used escalates.
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BL
Yep no effect at all on eze, the only effect was making me feel guilty for doing it to her. I am a big softie though 😁
Thing is a little tug doesn't work so the force used escalates.
Can't be good for the neck either I wouldn't imagine. ;)
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Update
Circular route tonight, she was very good yet again. I had to stop and reposition her three times all within fifty yards ish of the off lead section. I am definitely seeing daily improvement no doubt about it. I shall now toast my ongoing improvement with a wee scotch 😁
Ps
The wife's cousin who lives three propertys away has a five month beadle which is proving hard work so I had a rummage and found three different types of anti pull contraptions for him to try (none worked for us) 😞
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BL
Yep no effect at all on eze, the only effect was making me feel guilty for doing it to her. I am a big softie though 😁
Thing is a little tug doesn't work so the force used escalates.
Can't be good for the neck either I wouldn't imagine. ;)
Exactly 😢
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Upped the temptation today by going on a different route to the recent short circular. This one is in opposite direction and a route she is very familiar with, it is part country lane but mostly off lead on a bridleway and across fields. She always pulls like a train on this route so this will be a real proofing exercise.
Top of our lane turn left instead of right, light bulb goes on she knows were we are going and immediately gets to end of lead. I stopped before it became a pull and calmly did the ritual of positioning her against my left leg and giving her head a stroke. Said heel and walked on. I had to do this maybe six times in half a mile and i see that as a vast improvement. She got to the end of the lead but at no point did she actually dig in and pull in fact you can see she is trying by the way she walks with the breaks on.
Off lead section she flushed a pheasant and a brace of partridge and stopped to flush on both occasions. 😊
Back on road on lead and another high temptation of walking past my field which she walks to off lead usually. We walked past the gate and got home with no pulling 😁
To say i am pleased would be a massive understatement, although not perfect yet and she isn't always at a "true" heel but a little in front it is 100 times better than even a week ago. How i wish i had used this method two years ago.
Slight tweek to method. Instead of lifting her back i now guide her back gently with my hand. During the walk it occurred to me that if your trying to tell the dog you don't want tension on the lead then why do so by giving a lead pop !! I don't personally think it is enough to just stop when the pulling starts i think you need to read any forward movement and stop before the pulling even starts i also think that repositioning the dog to heel and the stroking really tells the dog exactly what you want.
I am not saying i have developed anything new as i am sure others have done same or similar but i can say one thing it is working fabulously for us 😁
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Have to agree with all your observations there. I give Henry a quick 'oi' before he gets to the end of the lead and 99% of the time he comes back to heel.
You've done brilliantly in a really short space of time. Thinking it over, can you isolate what you've done differently that has made such a big difference in such a short period of time? It might be what you've STOPPED doing that is significant as well as what you ARE doing. Miss eze certainly is a smart girl.
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Thanks LG
I will try but to be absolutely brutally honest I have tried that many "methods" it all got very confusing 😞
Generally I was using repeated lead pops out of frustration because I had already failed with stopping, going the other way and various so called anti pull harness. I got to the point a couple of months ago to give up any notion of her ever being good on a lead so started to do more off lead heel training even walking up the quiet country lane to the various countryside walks we have. She was very easy to train in this scenario because she was a little anxious about the odd car that came past but she knows to sit on the grass verge until it has passed. So I think the off lead heel work has had the biggest effect, she now knows were heel is so there is no excuse for none compliance on or off the lead.
Having had some issues last season beating on a much bigger shoot than she is used too I realised that I absolutely must get the lead sorted so I threw the book away so to speak and decided that heel was heel until I released her (yes obvious I know) and that instead of a constant war of attrition with her I would use absolutely no force and just explain calmly to her were I would like her to be.
Not sure if that answers the question or even if I know the answer but that's the story 👍
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That does answer my question - in your usual inimitable style, you came up with a tried-and-tested method, which is to teach the desired position without a lead involved. That's where I started. So once the lead went on, Henry already knew what it was I wanted. Half the battle won.
The big thing that stands out from your post - you stopped fighting her and found a way to teach her what you do want, not what you don't. All my 'battles' with Henry have been lost.
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On the subject of guiding Eze back in position with your hand - have you tried doing that with a treat? EIther guide her to come towards your right side, (by holding treat in front of her nose) round the back and then sit at your left or she can come towards your left side, guide your hand in an anti clockwise circle so she ends up sitting at your left heel. We started doing that pretty early on and all I need to do with Humphrey now is to point to my left ankle and he knows where he's suppsed to be. I think if she gets into position "under her own steam" rather than being "placed" there, it becomes more automatic. (Apologies if this sounds too obvious and you're doing it already, but it didn't sound as if you were, so thought I'd mention it!, ;))
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That does answer my question - in your usual inimitable style, you came up with a tried-and-tested method, which is to teach the desired position without a lead involved. That's where I started. So once the lead went on, Henry already knew what it was I wanted. Half the battle won.
The big thing that stands out from your post - you stopped fighting her and found a way to teach her what you do want, not what you don't. All my 'battles' with Henry have been lost.
I think your spot on LG. Probably a change in my demeanour, maybe ??
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On the subject of guiding Eze back in position with your hand - have you tried doing that with a treat? EIther guide her to come towards your right side, (by holding treat in front of her nose) round the back and then sit at your left or she can come towards your left side, guide your hand in an anti clockwise circle so she ends up sitting at your left heel. We started doing that pretty early on and all I need to do with Humphrey now is to point to my left ankle and he knows where he's suppsed to be. I think if she gets into position "under her own steam" rather than being "placed" there, it becomes more automatic. (Apologies if this sounds too obvious and you're doing it already, but it didn't sound as if you were, so thought I'd mention it!, ;))
No apology needed BL you are right I haven't done that. I don't tend to use food rewards anymore but if things don't progress as planned I will bare it in mind.
Thank you.
Ps
Strangely if I point to my right she heels to my left 😁 it comes from my early training days when I trained a walk around type show heel thing 😊
I don't bother too much with the walk around now but she still heels left 😁
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Right, i'm giving this a go tomorrow.
I do a lot of fishing and what I notice with Millie is that she is like playing a big fish. It always fights the pressure. If you pull left, the fish tries to go right etc etc.
Millie always pulls against the strain. This might just be the answer after several backward steps in the last couple of weeks put me to the point of giving up.
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Be interested to here how you get on.
Terms & conditions apply 😁
Its working for me but I am not selling it as a guaranteed fix 😉
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Here we go this is were we are at as of 6-30 this evening.
Not saying its perfect not saying its fully proofed or reliable yet, its work in progress.
Sorry its only short clip but only got mobile broadband at the moment so have to watch my data allowance.
Ps
That's my wife doing the honours, it ain't me 😁
https://vimeo.com/211538498
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Question
Does anyone have an opinion on the following.
Now that we are getting somewhere should I now demand a true heel ?
Is letting her be in front even though lead is loose (ish) a slippery slope to pulling, is she going to take a foot if I give an inch ??
Or should I accept that in front but not pulling may be as good as we can realistically hope for ??
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Good question.
Cockers are bred to run/work in front of us so it might be more natural for her to walk slightly ahead. Personally, if it were me, I would proof what you have got (I'd sell my right hand to be in your position at the moment) and nip any future potential pulling on the bud asap.
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Yes your probably right, I am thinking just in front may be good enough considering were talking cocker. Just thought it may be a slippery slope if I don't demand a propper heal. Will give it a while and play it by ear.
You been for a walk yet ??
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I think it rather depends on what you want - If we're out for a stroll and Humphrey has to be on the lead, I wouldn't think it necessary, or fair, to expect him to stay glued to my heel - I'm quite happy for him to trot along infront - we call this "walk nicely Humphrey!" ;), as long as he doesn't yank me all over the place. For me, "Heel" is literally just that, and I (try ;) to ) impose that if we're passing other dogs, joggers, traffic etc and I wouldn't expect him to do it for too long. I do use the heel command (in our case, its Fuß ;) ) but I try not to use a command at all for loose walking as I think "Fuß" would lose its meaning if I used it all the time and didn't insist on the correct position - hope that makes sense?
I make this sound as if we've got it all in place already 😂, we're a long way from consistency, once his initial excitement about going out has eased, he's pretty good - return journey's rarely a problem but he still gets very easily distracted - its easier to get him to sit and let the distraction pass than walk past the distraction ourselves.
I try not to set my goals too high and while I do try to train good lead discipline all the time we're out, I'm under no illusions that we'll probably never be perfect - and that's ok. On the upside, a deer jumped out about 20 yards from us this morning, I yelled "stay" and he stopped dead and came back when called, so hey ho - can't have everything. Wouldn't guarantee he'd do the same tomorrow but that's the excitement of living with a cocker, its like Russian Roulette!!! :005: :005:
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Yes your probably right, I am thinking just in front may be good enough considering were talking cocker. Just thought it may be a slippery slope if I don't demand a propper heal. Will give it a while and play it by ear.
You been for a walk yet ??
Not yet, heading out in about an hour. Not taking any sausages which usually means pull pull pull. We will see what happens.
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Good luck fingers crossed 👍
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I think it rather depends on what you want - If we're out for a stroll and Humphrey has to be on the lead, I wouldn't think it necessary, or fair, to expect him to stay glued to my heel - I'm quite happy for him to trot along infront - we call this "walk nicely Humphrey!" ;), as long as he doesn't yank me all over the place. For me, "Heel" is literally just that, and I (try ;) to ) impose that if we're passing other dogs, joggers, traffic etc and I wouldn't expect him to do it for too long. I do use the heel command (in our case, its Fuß ;) ) but I try not to use a command at all for loose walking as I think "Fuß" would lose its meaning if I used it all the time and didn't insist on the correct position - hope that makes sense?
I make this sound as if we've got it all in place already 😂, we're a long way from consistency, once his initial excitement about going out has eased, he's pretty good - return journey's rarely a problem but he still gets very easily distracted - its easier to get him to sit and let the distraction pass than walk past the distraction ourselves.
I try not to set my goals too high and while I do try to train good lead discipline all the time we're out, I'm under no illusions that we'll probably never be perfect - and that's ok. On the upside, a deer jumped out about 20 yards from us this morning, I yelled "stay" and he stopped dead and came back when called, so hey ho - can't have everything. Wouldn't guarantee he'd do the same tomorrow but that's the excitement of living with a cocker, its like Russian Roulette!!! :005: :005:
Um, maybe true heel is asking too much but as I said I don't want her to keep pinching an inch here and there and us ending up back were we started. I am committed now to consistent training and getting the loose lead sorted and reliable.
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Good luck fingers crossed 👍
Well that went well. Sometimes we managed 10 steps before I needed to stop and re-position her >:D In the end she was pulling sideways to avoid me. And just to add insult to injury she dived under a hedge and came out with a mouthful of poo >:D
I know it is early days so I will keep going.
My other cocker Murphy walks brilliantly on a lead with no training at all but 18 months of trying and Millie is no better, unless I have a pocket full of sausage. And I'm determined that I won't use them any more.
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Good luck fingers crossed 👍
Well that went well. Sometimes we managed 10 steps before I needed to stop and re-position her >:D In the end she was pulling sideways to avoid me. And just to add insult to injury she dived under a hedge and came out with a mouthful of poo >:D
I know it is early days so I will keep going.
My other cocker Murphy walks brilliantly on a lead with no training at all but 18 months of trying and Millie is no better, unless I have a pocket full of sausage. And I'm determined that I won't use them any more.
Um, bit disappointing then 😢
Just goes to show that there all different and respond to different things. I haven't experienced eze going away trying to avoid me 😞
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Apologies for the following language.......
Bloody ell.
Did the whole one mile ish circular route without needing to re position her once 😁
In fact 30% of the time (early on) she was level or behind my leg.
Insert BIG smiley thing....
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Result!!!!!......
......(walks off with slumped shoulders and starts crying in the corner)
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Result!!!!!......
......(walks off with slumped shoulders and starts crying in the corner)
I feel bad now 😁
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Something occurred to me yesterday evening whilst on my lead training walk.
Does anyone think that the speed that you walk could effect the pulling behaviour ?
One automatically assumes that walking faster would aid not pulling BUT it seems to me that even a slightly brisk pace breaks them out into a sort of canter which COULD theoretically make matters worse. I have noticed a strange cadence to eze's walk at certain speeds. I am thinking that the slower the better to avoid the dog walking at a speed which is unnatural for it and hence a more reaxed demeanour in the dog.
Any thoughts
Ps
I will put it to the test later 👍
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Forgot to try the slower walk (been a long day 😞)
In the interest of honesty (which I always am) tonight was a backward step. Went the other way the one that has more excitement and with the wife (she is never as good at anything when the wife is there, I don't know why) anyway I lost count of the number of re positions 😞 she wasn't pulling as such but was at the end of the lead which is not acceptable to me. I am not overly concerned as I know that unwanted behaviour can re emerge from time to time and I also know that loose lead will always need maintenance. I don't think I was in the same mood as usual either.
On the plus side she bumped two pheasant and stopped to flush then she recalled straight away and came to heel.
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If its any consolation - just spent the day on a hike with OH and our two sons and finished up walking through the town. Hike was ok (ish), through town? Desaster!! - just when you think you're on top of it, these little wotsits wag a paw at you and snigger "uh uh - not done with you yet!!" >:D
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Thanks BL
Yes none compliance is only a breath away 😁
I am determined not to do my usual which is to change methods as soon as it "appears" not to be working. I have proven this method works so deep breath and back to it tomorrow 👍
Ps
Is there anything more frustrating than trying to train loose lead ?
I doubt it 😞
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random pondering for the day regarding lead work
Why does my boy walk perfectly to heel on and off lead when I have my horse on the other side yet without said horse I need to reposition MANY times :005:
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Why not let the horse take the dog for a walk, job done 😁
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I'm a brisk walker so I thought that I would try a slower walk yesterday and it did help. Still pulled but not the belly touching the floor type pull. I've got to be honest, I've given up on a loose lead walk. The sausages work but I don't want a dog looking at me for the duration. I will, at this moment in time, accept a Millie walking with a semi tight lead as a result.
I'm easily pleased ;)
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Well any improvement is good. Interesting to hear that walking slower did have an effect. I will do same this evening and report back. Will leave the Mrs at home, as I said previously I don't know why but she doesn't walk, train or work as well when the wife is around. She must be a bad influence 😁
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If there was an improvement with walking slower it was very slight.
Fri evening and sat morning walks were no better or worse than the last week or so. She definitely isn't pulling but is still getting to end of lead so its between three and six on average repositions per walk.
It is hundred times better than it was BUT I want a propper heel position so more work to do.
I tried a shorter lead this morning as opposed to having all the lead out but that made her pull 😞
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Lily's still a puppy, but she wont walk in a straight line - she walks in more of an S shape, or a zig-zag, to be able to sniff as much ground as possible. She's so little, I have a job not to trip over her much of the time! :005:
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Thought I would update. Had various walks in last week or so but have missed a few days. Things continue to improve less and less occasions of re positioning her but she does get to the end of the lead sometimes. If I accept this very loose heel then its fair to say that we can get round a walk without any pulling however I would ultimately like a propper heel, maybe I am asking too much. We had a longish walk on Monday and Lynn opted for the wydwl harness as she was main lead holder on er during that walk. I think she is marginally better on the harness although I prefer the ease of a slip. Having said that the wydwl is a doddle to put on.
Question
Is there a similar product to the wydwl as in similar design, as easy to put on but maybe a top ring as well and maybe more padded. Has to look workman like as well 😁
The one thing I don't like about it is the big ring for front fastening, to me it looks a bit big and must annoy the dog especially with a lead clip on as well which is why I have attached a thin slip lead to it instead so no added weight to bang about on her chest.
This looks similar but has more buckles to adjust so prob not as good as wydwl one, any thoughts
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Premier-HARNESS-Reduce-Pulling-Medium/dp/B0009ZD3QY
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The trainer I recently saw with Blue told me to avoid harnesses altogether if I want heel walking.
So we are currently using a normal collar & lead. (She also said no 'bungee' type leads, but I've had to go back to mine, I just couldn't keep a tight enough grip on the type she recommended).
The Ruffwear Front Range harness is very sturdy, and has a solid back clip, and a smaller reinforced fabric loop on the chest.
http://www.ruffwear.co.uk/dog-gear/harnesses/front-range
To be honest, I could open a flipping shop with all the harnesses, leads and collars I bought for Blue, only to end up back on a bog standard collar & lead!
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Ha, yes we are the same got all sorts but only the wydwl one seemed to work however its hard to say for sure because at the time of trying it I was already well into serious heel training. I will say this though, even though I am supposed to be a ruffty tufftie working gundog bloke I actually prefer harness.
I don't like leads because I don't like restraint plus I don't need one often. I look on it a bit like the safety harness I put on my daughter when she was a toddler. I didn't like restraining her but it was necessary at times for safety. During these occasions I didn't put anything around her neck !!!!!
I reckon someone should re-invent the whole lead harness thing and come up with one that would be seen as "rough and tough and workman like" so more gundog folk would use them. I certainly would and I am on a quest for easy to put on and off, gold, brown or green in colour. Small front fastening ring or better still why not have the lead bit as part of it. The wydwl is a product that is very nearly there and with a few minor improvement I would use one even on a shoot day despite the stick I would probably get 😁
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Update
Although loose lead continued to improve on my walks from home it obviously is no were near proofed because this weekend whilst away in the caravan she reverted back to her old ways presumably due to the excitement of new areas to explore with new scent etc. We had to use a harness and extendable lead for the two mile walk along the river as I did not want her getting into the fast flowing river sections and or chasing ducks / ducklings.
Is there anything in life more frustrating than loose lead training ?
It seems to be an ongoing unwinnable battle and a battle I am getting very tired of. I dislike the fact that it gets me so frustrated with her and at times I can understand how easy it would be to use aversive methods however I do not think even that would have any long term effect.
Rant over 😭
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I feel your pain completely. I have pretty much given up on the holy grail of the loose lead, and feel pathetically grateful that Blue will now (usually) sit and wait at the kerb when asked to, rather than drag me into the oncoming traffic.
*sigh*
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Update
Although loose lead continued to improve on my walks from home it obviously is no were near proofed because this weekend whilst away in the caravan she reverted back to her old ways presumably due to the excitement of new areas to explore with new scent etc. We had to use a harness and extendable lead for the two mile walk along the river as I did not want her getting into the fast flowing river sections and or chasing ducks / ducklings.
Is there anything in life more frustrating than loose lead training ?
It seems to be an ongoing unwinnable battle and a battle I am getting very tired of. I dislike the fact that it gets me so frustrated with her and at times I can understand how easy it would be to use aversive methods however I do not think even that would have any long term effect.
Rant over 😭
I think you had too much success too quickly. You got a nice loose lead really quickly in what I assume are fairly regular sitatuions near home. As I'm sure you know, every time you add a significant new variable to proofing a behaviour, you have to decrease the difficulty in other respects to ensure proofing. Which is really annoying when you just want to enjoy a nice walk on a weekend away. But to your dog, this is an entirely new situation and nothing in her doggy brain would have made her think loose lead walking was required, unless you let her know and reinforced it like billy-o.
When we go somewhere new, I expect the first 10-15 minutes on lead to be terrible. I stop and wait for a self-correction every single time Henry pulls ahead. I bring super nice treat and the clicker and reinforce A LOT for nice walking.
It's boring. And frustrating. But it works (eventually).
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Update
Although loose lead continued to improve on my walks from home it obviously is no were near proofed because this weekend whilst away in the caravan she reverted back to her old ways presumably due to the excitement of new areas to explore with new scent etc. We had to use a harness and extendable lead for the two mile walk along the river as I did not want her getting into the fast flowing river sections and or chasing ducks / ducklings.
Is there anything in life more frustrating than loose lead training ?
It seems to be an ongoing unwinnable battle and a battle I am getting very tired of. I dislike the fact that it gets me so frustrated with her and at times I can understand how easy it would be to use aversive methods however I do not think even that would have any long term effect.
Rant over 😭
I think you had too much success too quickly. You got a nice loose lead really quickly in what I assume are fairly regular sitatuions near home. As I'm sure you know, every time you add a significant new variable to proofing a behaviour, you have to decrease the difficulty in other respects to ensure proofing. Which is really annoying when you just want to enjoy a nice walk on a weekend away. But to your dog, this is an entirely new situation and nothing in her doggy brain would have made her think loose lead walking was required, unless you let her know and reinforced it like billy-o.
When we go somewhere new, I expect the first 10-15 minutes on lead to be terrible. I stop and wait for a self-correction every single time Henry pulls ahead. I bring super nice treat and the clicker and reinforce A LOT for nice walking.
It's boring. And frustrating. But it works (eventually).
Your spot on LG.
Trouble is sometimes you just want to have a nice walk without the training aspect. Its even more difficult when there are two of you as the one not holding the lead also has to keep stopping. You may recall that i did consider introducing the clicker, maybe I should consider it again. ??
Proofing, it would seem is the bit many of us slip up on. I was telling Simon (mooremadness) only yesterday how I steadied on dummies but then discovered I had to start all over again on pheasant then too my surprise having steadied her to pheasant the keeper puts his partridge down and again eze had to be persuaded that she had to be steady to partridge as well as pheasant and dummies. Then came furry things in the shape of hare.
So your absolutely correct she did not know (presumably) that loose lead was a requirement in any area not just locally to home. Funny thing is she was reasonably good around town on Saturday when we went to Ilkley, go figure 😵
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I think this is why many of us find loose-lead training so difficult to see through all the potential proofing. It impacts directly on situations where you just want to walk your dog, not look and feel like a fool stopping every other second and waiting for your dog to work out what its doing wrong. Other behaviours you can chose to shelve on days you don't want to train. But lead walking is part of our daily lives with our dogs, and proofing it can feel at odds with just having a normal life!
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I think this is why many of us find loose-lead training so difficult to see through all the potential proofing. It impacts directly on situations where you just want to walk your dog, not look and feel like a fool stopping every other second and waiting for your dog to work out what its doing wrong. Other behaviours you can chose to shelve on days you don't want to train. But lead walking is part of our daily lives with our dogs, and proofing it can feel at odds with just having a normal life!
Exactly
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Tried the wydwl again tonight (this was a walk not lead training) she definitely does not pull "as much" on this but I do not believe its a quick fix if you want a proper heel which I do. The thing I notice though is that the front part does end up tight on her neck. Is this normal or have I not got it tight enough.
Ps
I think I need to go back a step and start lead training sessions and re positioning which was proven to work however this weekends "walks" seem to have un done all my good work...grrr
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Just wondered if you've tried doing a stint of lead training which isn't actually part of a walk but is purely "training"? I've been doing this recently with Humphrey and am finding its starting to have some effect, he still pulls when we first leave the house and he's excited but after a few minutes I'm finding that he's responding better to the heel command.
I've found a field thats more or less unfrequented, so there are very few smells and distractions. I let him let off a bit of steam for a bit and then we do ten or so minutes of solid heel walking on lead, I continually change direction about every 15 or 20 paces so he has to keep an eye on me and I also change speed from a walk, to jog or very very slow and he should sit as soon as I stop. Its really just classic basic training school stuff but I'm finding it much easier to be consistant on a field, on our own when its just him and me concentrating on the job in hand than trying to keep myself motivated while trying to just have a carefree walk!
I'm hoping if I can eventually get this perfect without distraction then maybe it'll all start and fall into place in "real life" :-\
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Just wondered if you've tried doing a stint of lead training which isn't actually part of a walk but is purely "training"? I've been doing this recently with Humphrey and am finding its starting to have some effect, he still pulls when we first leave the house and he's excited but after a few minutes I'm finding that he's responding better to the heel command.
I've found a field thats more or less unfrequented, so there are very few smells and distractions. I let him let off a bit of steam for a bit and then we do ten or so minutes of solid heel walking on lead, I continually change direction about every 15 or 20 paces so he has to keep an eye on me and I also change speed from a walk, to jog or very very slow and he should sit as soon as I stop. Its really just classic basic training school stuff but I'm finding it much easier to be consistant on a field, on our own when its just him and me concentrating on the job in hand than trying to keep myself motivated while trying to just have a carefree walk!
I'm hoping if I can eventually get this perfect without distraction then maybe it'll all start and fall into place in "real life" :-\
Yes done that BUT is it not a case of even if it works you end up still having to proof it on a "normal" walk ?
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Been searching for inspiration and this I think is very good.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xP-E02rKR6c
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I saw someone this morning that we haven't seen for a while, they have a Cockapoo that Blue sometimes walks with.
They recently sought help from a dog trainer (not the one I saw), and has got them using a Martingale collar for heel work, which they saw works a treat (and he was walking nicely to heel this morning).
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There a type of half choke collar if it's the ones I am thinking about, never tried one on eze but a friend has one on his German shepherd but she still pulls but that is no surprise as he does zero training with her.
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Interesting reading here - also note what is said re slip leads which tighten up around the ears, as mentioned by the YouTube guy.
http://www.apdt.co.uk/about-apdt/apdt-policy-on-half-check-collars
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Interesting reading here - also note what is said re slip leads which tighten up around the ears, as mentioned by the YouTube guy.
http://www.apdt.co.uk/about-apdt/apdt-policy-on-half-check-collars
Very interesting indeed.....thanks for the link 👍
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Been searching for inspiration and this I think is very good.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xP-E02rKR6c
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Sorry, but this chap doesn't really impress me, he's putting pressure on the dog to conform rather than teaching the dog anything. Watch the dog's body language - he doesn't look as if he's exactly enjoying himself, but then why would he be with someone pulling a lead on his throat? He does have a few good points, attempting to keep the lead as loose as possible being one, constantly changing direction is another, - although I found his reasoning a bit illogical, - surely the point is to teach the dog to pay attention to you not to disorientate him.
He's trying to offer a quick fix with this type of lead and I just don't believe there is one, - the dog needs to learn its to his advantage to walk nicely (positive reinforcement) , not do it out of fear of being yanked by the throat . It is a long job with our little cockers, - I'll the first to admit I didn't envisage it being this long winded but they're not natural heel walkers and my experience so far tells me the only way we're ever going to get there is going to be with patience and practice, practice, practice. Not easy, - I do lose my rag occasionally like many of us, I'm just human but I've learned that putting pressure on Humphrey gets me nowhere. And, going back to my point yesterday about learning in a quieter environment, imagine trying to learn to drive on the M1, sure it can be done but if you've mastered the basics somewhere quieter, its going to be easier to cope with the rest surely?
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Um, will have to watch it again as I don't recall him giving any jerks or using any aversive. I liked his method of never putting pressure on the lead , this is what I try to do. The thing he does differently is the placement of the lead high on the neck and the stopper quite tight, I do opposite I have stopped loose and attempt to make it seem as close to possible as having no lead around her neck.
Trouble is few of the techniques on youtube or anywhere else are cocker specific.
I would still love to see a vid of a cocker at true heel with slack lead and a trainer able to outline the method used to attain it.
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When I watched the video I also thought the dog didn't look happy - look at her tail. Also, when he 'rewards' her with praise (and no treat!) he doesn't sound very effusive, in fact he barely changes his tone of voice at all - how is the dog supposed to know she's being rewarded?
Also noticed in the comments section below the video, he seems to be saying keep the dog on your left so she knows you're the alpha male ...
Meanwhile, Blue has been a bit better this morning, maybe because I relaxed a bit. A couple of times he started walking nicely without being asked, and I was able to reward him quickly enough for him to make the link.
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The words coming out of his mouth and his actions with the dog are at odds with each other. He says sensible things - all of the loose-leash walking training I like says the handler should avoid tightening the lead as much as possible. I'm teaching Henry what to do if HE tightens the lead. If I tighten it, it's confusing and makes it harder from him to succeed. But that man keeps pulling the dog back to him to correct its position. He also says 'heel' as he pulls. If the dog has never learned a heel position, he's probably just taught her that 'heel' means 'man pulls on my neck when I'm in front of him'.
And what's with the obsession with not rewarding with treats? Is it is macho thing? He says give praise but barely does, and 'corrects' by pulling the dog.
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When I watched the video I also thought the dog didn't look happy - look at her tail. Also, when he 'rewards' her with praise (and no treat!) he doesn't sound very effusive, in fact he barely changes his tone of voice at all - how is the dog supposed to know she's being rewarded?
Also noticed in the comments section below the video, he seems to be saying keep the dog on your left so she knows you're the alpha male ...
Meanwhile, Blue has been a bit better this morning, maybe because I relaxed a bit. A couple of times he started walking nicely without being asked, and I was able to reward him quickly enough for him to make the link.
I honestly believe being relaxed yourself makes a huge difference!! We've just joined a local dog club and take part in the Sunday morning "group", which is less formal than any of the proper classes I've been to so far. (I'd sworn I wouldn't go to any more) OH watches on the side and has remarked how much more relaxed I am and, amazingly, so is Humphrey and he's cooperating much better. I used to get SO uptight and stressed when he wouldn't do what I wanted.
By the sounds of things, that trainer you went to see has resulted in some good successes and now your confidence is growing you're more relaxed. I really wish it hadn't taken me nearly two years to learn to be more laid back about it all but, better late than never!! We'll get there yet! ;)
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I will watch it again, I must have missed parts of it.
In my defence I am full of man flu and self medicating with scotch may have effected my viewpoint 😁
As you know I don't advocate aversive training so a bit disappointed in myself if I got this wrong.
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I will watch it again, I must have missed parts of it.
In my defence I am full of man flu and self medicating with scotch may have effected my viewpoint 😁
As you know I don't advocate aversive training so a bit disappointed in myself if I got this wrong.
Have to say I did wonder as you'd previously said you preferred harness to collar for that very reason!! We'll let you off this time, - hope you're feeling better soon!! ;) :005:
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Well, early on he gives a few tugs to demonstrate what a lot if not most of us do. Then when the slip lead is on he corrects the dog a couple of times just to educate it. After that all seems pretty good to me. As for lack of praise, I am not sure if it is not a case of less is more as in he doesn't want to over use the praise or increase the dogs excitement or if its just that he is talking to the camera .
I don't personally see anything in that vid to critique and the force (if you could even call it that) is very minimal particularly considering its a big powerful breed. The dog doesn't look fully comfortable BUT its not his dog so its probably a bit stressed anyway.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Thanks BL but I still feel rough 😞
Ps
Yes your right I do prefer the idea of a harness and still trying to find something I am happy with but lead training has been with a slip. I don't like things round her neck she rarely even wears a collar BUT slips are the easiest and quickest option when we are working until such time that I re-invent the wheel. 😁
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Edit
Moved to separate topic
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Usual route this evening with wide ish collar instead of slip, she was very good in fact I would say better than on a slip which I have suspected before but wasn't convinced. Go figure. 😉
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Update
Eze in season so been using the harness so I can put flexi lead on in those areas she would usually be off lead. Anyway this is were we are up too. Not totally reliable yet and needs proofing in many different areas but we are going the right way.
https://vimeo.com/216134510
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That's lovely!! Well done Eze!!! :clapping:
That looks like a nice light lead you've got there, I have a notion that that also helps :-\ Would she walk like that in all situations now? Humphrey CAN walk like that but the trouble is, its not consistant, I still have problems focusing his attention on me quite a lot of the time and its usually just in those places where I really NEED it. Still, its encouraging that we're heading in the right direction!! Well done!
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Thanks BL Yes its a light rope lead and quite a narrow light harness I am convinced she is better on anything but a slip. Maybe there is an association now with slip lead and pulling I don't know for sure.
Well as you can see she knows were I want her but no it isn't reliable in all areas and situations but a hundred times better than a few months ago. I intend to proof it before Oct but if she still doesn't pull when were on a shoot I will be very surprised.
Aren't walks enjoyable on those occasions the dog walks nice 😁
Thanks for the support and encouragement I know that you and many others understand how frustrating it is to try and train loose lead 👍
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That's a lovely bit of walking. Is that the harness you cobbled together yourself?
I've been teaching Henry to stop when I stop. This morning we did some sit-stays and down-stays in the park with lots of other dogs barrelling around and he did really well. I then practiced some off-lead heel work. Problem was, he stopped and sat beautifully when I stopped but I was half way across the field when I realised he's put himself in a stay as well and hadn't set off again with me. Cue addition of release cue...
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That's a lovely bit of walking. Is that the harness you cobbled together yourself?
I've been teaching Henry to stop when I stop. This morning we did some sit-stays and down-stays in the park with lots of other dogs barrelling around and he did really well. I then practiced some off-lead heel work. Problem was, he stopped and sat beautifully when I stopped but I was half way across the field when I realised he's put himself in a stay as well and hadn't set off again with me. Cue addition of release cue...
Thanks LG
No that is a bought harness that I normally use if she is on flexi lead which she is now due to season.
I tried to upload pics of my home made job, don't know what happened but the whole post disappeared 😞. Will have to re post with pics. To be honest though after much experimentation over the last week I am not convinced with these front attach jobs. Think I will stick with the one on the vid for now and carry on with the training 👍
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Currently on hols in caravan in Keswick. Lead training has been going well UNTIL we got here. The excitement of swimming in the lake etc was too much and she pulled me around the caravan site and made me look a right "insert suitable term" . That was on collar and lead. This evenings walk I put her on the harness and without a shadow of a doubt she does not pull anywhere near the same, as I have suspected for some time. The popular belief that harness encourages pulling is utter nonsense Imo.
I remain on a quest to find a quick to put on and off job and will be having a look at the VERY good shop in Keswick tomorrow. They stock ruffwear and hunter amongst others. Will report back.
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If it makes you feel any better, my OH sees police with sniffer spaniels on a daily basis near his work and even those professional handlers have a dog at the far end of a lead half the time!
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I would like to say it does, but it doesn't 😁
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If it makes you feel any better, my OH sees police with sniffer spaniels on a daily basis near his work and even those professional handlers have a dog at the far end of a lead half the time!
EXACTLY the same thing occured to me on the weekend! :lol2:. and had to remind myself, yet again, that I need to stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole, - Humphrey is a Cocker Spaniel!! Enough said!! I got SO cross with him yesterday, nose on the floor, pulling like a freight train and jumping all over visitors but then we've been to the vet today and he's such a joy and so laid back and friendly with everyone, i have to ask myself - what sort of dog do I want? Can't have it all! ;)
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I feel such a failure sometimes though. And I feel a bit of a fool when she pulls at times.
I cant get my head around how I have been able to train some pretty good stuff and yet something one would think should be pretty basic I fail on. On our walks from home she has been really good but its obviously not proofed yet. Grrr
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I feel such a failure sometimes though. And I feel a bit of a fool when she pulls at times.
I cant get my head around how I have been able to train some pretty good stuff and yet something one would think should be pretty basic I fail on. On our walks from home she has been really good but its obviously not proofed yet. Grrr
I really sympathise and feel exactly the same - some days I can be tolerant and some days I really lose my rag but I have to continually remind myself he's not doing any of it to be awkard, he just cannot help himself, he's just being who he is.
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Fair comment. Flamin frustrating though isn't it ??
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Fair comment. Flamin frustrating though isn't it ??
You can say that again but then who wants a dog that's so obedient it has no character? (Don't answer that! ;) :005:)
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My OH said this to me the other day: 'Maybe we just have to accept that there are some things that we will never be able to 'fix' because they are not broken, they are just the way he is. It's what makes him Henry.'
I know I've been guilty of focussing on what is 'wrong' over enjoying the many things that are 'right'. It's got a lot more to do with what makes me, me, than anything to do with the dog!
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Fair comment. Flamin frustrating though isn't it ??
You can say that again but then who wants a dog that's so obedient it has no character? (Don't answer that! ;) :005:)
Ok I wont, but you know the answer 😁
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Update for anyone remotely interested.
Currently away in caravan for week hols. Looked at harnesses in the very good pet shop but nothing suitable. Decided to get a new brown rope lead to match her current harness and a new brown collar for ease of use when your not going far enough to warrant the harness (yes slip is easiest by far but I have fallen out with slip leads as I have alluded to before) anyway no suitable collar apart from a half choker thing, very soft padded job in light brown with chain on. Instead of fully choking the little madam with a slip lead this lies very loose due to weight of chain bit until madam pulls when it tightens but only to the size of her neck, in fact even then there is a bit of room. This was not purchased as any kind of training or anti pull device it was purely an alternative to a slip for very short walks anyway it turns out that she walks very well on it in fact today we have been around town and in a park and yes there were occasions that I had to stop and reposition (well she repositions herself now then I continue to walk) her but all things considered such as none proofed area, high excitement and big temptations she was by far the best she has ever been over an extended walk (walk not lead training)
Not sure if it is the new fangled colllar or all the hard work Lynn and I have done or a mixture of both but a definite improvement so there is hope and light at the end of the tunnel. I even allowed myself to feel very smug indeed whilst walking past dog owners being pulled along. 😁
Hopefully you can make out from this picture how it works.
(http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b465/i-p-s/WP_20170521_13_49_47_Pro_zpscqr6pmd7.jpg) (http://s1046.photobucket.com/user/i-p-s/media/WP_20170521_13_49_47_Pro_zpscqr6pmd7.jpg.html)
Ps
Many many dogs in Keswick as it is sposed to be the most dog friendly town in UK, I have noticed many different breeds and that 80% are using a harness and prob 60% at least pulling on the lead. What one can conclude from this observation I am not sure but there you go
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Haven't the time to read all the way through 9 pages of this thread, so apologies in advance if anyone has said this before.
Ozzy, although a show cocker, not a WC, has pulled like a train from day one. I resorted to a Halti very early on, and although his neck muscles are incredibly strong and he could still pull without it turning his head, it at least gave me some measure of control as he couldn't pull quite so hard. Most of his walks were off lead, and he too was really good at walking by my side without a lead When he was about 18 months old he was castrated and couldn't be walked off lead for a good few weeks, so I used an extendable lead, still using the Halti as well. This continued until about 8 months ago when I had to start using an ordinary lead as he started to eat other dogs pooh. He had become so used to the extendable, sometimes long and sometime shortened, that it didn't cause too much problem. He is 5 now, and he has begun to walk on a loose lead a lot of the time, until another dog or human comes into view. But I can cope. He can walk very nicely to heel when the mood takes him, and most of the time we have no need to use the Halti any longer. The only time I have to use it now is when I take both Ozzy and our GR pup Jess out together on my own. Then they both pull in different directions! I think that I will have to introduce Jess to a Halti (or some other head collar) before too long as she has started to pull now.
The moral of this long and boring story is: keep at it, take it in stages and it will come, at least to some extent.
Good luck.
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All I can say, ips, is that eze does NOT look impressed. ;)
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That's her usual serious look 😁
LG I can assure you that she was quite happy 100% comfortable with it. It is much better than a slip (Imo) as it does not constrict. It is no tighter than a normal collar and the benefit is that unlike a normal collar when the dog is at heel this type is totally slack (like a slip)
You have read enough of my posts to know that if she was in anyway unhappy I would have removed it within seconds. Oh and unlike a collar this is not left on it is used exactly like a slip.
Just to clarify I still consider a harness to be the most comfortable for the dog and still intend to use one but for very short walks this set up is easier. The only reason I left it on all the time today was because she was walking so well with it.
Regards
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That's her usual serious look 😁
LG I can assure you that she was quite happy 100% comfortable with it. It is much better than a slip (Imo) as it does not constrict. It is no tighter than a normal collar and the benefit is that unlike a normal collar when the dog is at heel this type is totally slack (like a slip)
You have read enough of my posts to know that if she was in anyway unhappy I would have removed it within seconds. Oh and unlike a collar this is not left on it is used exactly like a slip.
Just to clarify I still consider a harness to be the most comfortable for the dog and still intend to use one but for very short walks this set up is easier. The only reason I left it on all the time today was because she was walking so well with it.
Regards
Sorry, I absolutely did not mean to suggest she wasn't happy, I just found her expression quite comical.
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My apologies LG I miss read your post 😞
I did think it odd considering how well you know me by now from my posts. I would never ever intentionally do anything that she wasn't comfortable with.
Again my apologies.
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No worries!
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Update as were now deeply involved in loose lead stuff again.
We haven't done much propper lead walking for a week or so but we braved the terrible weather just now to do a two mile round trip to the shop. It was generally ok however she seems to be getting in front again (not pulling just not at heel) so a few physical repositions were required at various stages of the walk. Its not a concern as I accepted a while ago that loose lead would require maintenance from time to time just like other aspects of training / working. The repositioning proved itself again but for full disclosure we had a good ten of them. I would rather have to reposition every quarter of a mile than be dragged for the duration and I do not as yet consider the loose lead "fully" reliable or that it ever will be without maintenance. I suspect anyone knuckling down to it when dog is still young will have better results than I as our madam had a very much engrained behaviour by the time we started a propper regime.
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Can I ask exactly how you reposition her? I stop and wait for Henry to come back to heel. How do you reposition her without yourself walking into the heel position, making moving her redundant? Can you reach forwards and lift her?! Not an option for me and 16kg of monster cocker.
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Can I ask exactly how you reposition her? I stop and wait for Henry to come back to heel. How do you reposition her without yourself walking into the heel position, making moving her redundant? Can you reach forwards and lift her?! Not an option for me and 16kg of monster cocker.
When she gets to the end of the lead (usually a gradual creep so I don't notice, she thinks 😁) I stop take a stride with one leg, physically lift her maybe 6" step back and place her gently at heel which is were she should have been, I then give her head a stroke as I pull her body to touch my leg, tell her good girl because I want heel position to be a nice loving place to be. Stand up and after a second or so walk on. Sometimes she never needs this and walks perfectly other times she may need one as a reminder other times like today she needs several but she eventually gets the message. Today with hindsight was an odd day due to weather she hadn't been out of the house since 8am comfort break and walk was 3-30 ish so she was eager to have a run. That is fine because it was lead training with a level of excitement so it was productive for proofing 👍
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Ps
LG eze is around 12kg so I can see how it may be difficult for some to do the same as I if there pooch is much bigger than that.
The reason I do it this way is because every time I have tried the stop when they pull she just hops (literally) back to heel and starts puling again. The actual physical aspect of lifting her I think conveys to her that I have total power over the situation and power to enforce (not in an aversive way per seh) were she is or rather meant to be. As opposed to I stop you hop we walk you pull ...and so the cycle continues further reinforcing the learned pulling behaviour. Of course its fare to point out that due to my failings eze had a deeply engrained history of pulling so the stop method may indeed work for a younger dog given time and consistency.
I think that whatever method you use if succeeding will require constant maintenance instead of us assuming that one day loose lead is trained and that's job done.
PPS
I have found that if you accept the dog to start positioning itself in front a bit then in front a bit becomes in front a bit more and very soon dog has reached the end of the lead and that's only a bit away from pulling . I now only accept "true" heel if not I reposition.
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PPS
I have found that if you accept the dog to start positioning itself in front a bit then in front a bit becomes in front a bit more and very soon dog has reached the end of the lead and that's only a bit away from pulling . I now only accept "true" heel if not I reposition.
Good Observation Ian. This rings very true. Currently I'm happy for Barnaby to be ahead of me but on a slack lead. Its exactly the nature of them creeping ever further forward that is the issue. Eventually they are far enough forward to reach the end of their rope which to a cockers limit number of brain cells simply equates to the need to pull harder.
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Exactly john
I thought I would live with slightly in front, Mrs ips was over the moon at this new dog she had on the end of a lead BUT an inch here and an inch there and your on a slippery slope 👍
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an inch here and an inch there and your on a slippery slope 👍
Ive found this to be true with absolutely everything I have trained.
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very short clip of this afternoon.
https://youtu.be/QUkuARo-7sc
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That's lovely, she looks so relaxed. Can I just ask how long she would walk like that ? Humphrey can do it but I get the impression with him that the concentration still requires an enormous effort and it tires him out. Would you say this is Eze's normal /natural pace when on the lead now or is she still having to conciously "make an effort" Don't know if that question makes sense? 🤔
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Makes sense totally
Most days this is a true depiction and she could walk that good all day. Other days it may start that way but only last 1/4 mile before I need to do the reposition job. It really depends if she knows were we are going, there are certain walks that she knows there is an off lead bit so on approach to that path or field she will start to get excited and get to the end of the lead BUT she hasn't pulled as such for months now. Sometimes she is relaxed into that pace sometimes you can tell she is really really trying which is good in a sense that she is showing self control. its very close to reliable but I suspect it will always require maintenance from time to time.
I know how frustrating it is so thought I would do a vid of were we are now. The vid was edited at the beginning when I put lead on as you could not see anything from the camera so ten seconds is missing, the end bit is cut as I turned camera off. It was a spur of the moment vid hopefully to encourage folk who may be lead training. Its easy to give up and think its a cocker trait and eze was as bad as it gets believe me so if I can do it then anyone can. 👍
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Thank you, yes it IS encouraging to see that it truly can be done. I have noticed that Humphrey is a lot harder to control in certain very familiar places and I am concluding now that this is a learned behaviour. (We cross the road at the same point each day, he sits and then HAS to scratch himself behind the ear, every single day without fail!! )
I'm maybe kidding myself a bit but I also think being an uncastrated young male also makes his life a bit harder, his nose just gets in the way (!) but I don't consider it a big enough problem to justify him being "done" ;)
Still, if all our dogs were perfect and easy we wouldn't have a need for this lovely forum would we?
On a separate note, - having made a hole in an old football, we've been playing with a rugby ball this evening. After a few dribbles across the lawn, he managed to pick it up by the narrow and and carry it!! Wonder if I could teach him a touchdown? :005:
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Strange about the habitual ear scratch, I wonder what that means 😖
Is it a similar behaviour to when they shake (cant remember what its called) to come down a level??
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Thanks Ips - your video's do definitely help and it gives people like me something to aim for
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Strange about the habitual ear scratch, I wonder what that means 😖
Is it a similar behaviour to when they shake (cant remember what its called) to come down a level??
yes, I know what you mean, can't think of the word either - that's actually what a couple of trainers I've spoken to have said but even if it might have been true in the beginning, I don't think it can be now, its probably just a learned habit. All very facinating stuff, I think I missed my vocation!!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Eh6tCcmUB0&feature=share
I hope this link works. This is the trainer I train with . My pup is 5 months now. And using this method to train lead walking. No picking the dog up, no jerking, no use of choke chain or any other negative methods. Like to think Muffin and I are working as a team and he is happy to be by my side.
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Hi
Very good hope it works for you 👍
This is not a criticism you understand but what happens when you have no treats ?
Also that isn't a cocker 😁
Once again no criticism intended and apparently any of the methods work as long as your consistent.....apparently... but does that include cockers as my one just did not "get" the stopping ir opposite direction or treats or ball in pocket or lead pops or any of the various anti pull harness things (wydwl was about the best though)
Good vid though and worth trying, as you say much better than any of the negative methods 👍
Ps
Be interesting to hear from col members who have had success with that or similar methods. ??
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You do more steps for less treats but still give praise. Doesn't matter it is not a cocker spaniel the training is just the same for teaching any dog to walk nicely on a lead.
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So phase em out gradual then ??
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Yes. Like all training it is patience and consistency.
The scratching behaviour can be a displacement behaviour. it can be something is going on they are unhappy with so they scratch to give themselves relief.
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Displacement that's the term BL and I couldn't remember. We will both sleep tonight 😁
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A better one from this evening with "the boss"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AY9_luEIDLQ
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Yes. Like all training it is patience and consistency.
The scratching behaviour can be a displacement behaviour. it can be something is going on they are unhappy with so they scratch to give themselves relief.
The way I understand the "shake" as though they are shaking to dry off is that when two dogs are playing and one has had enough it shakes to tell the other dog "that's it I have had enough" and the shake when human is involved is to tell us that they are "coming down from a level of excitement or anxiety" I had no idea about this until a very experienced gundog trainer and friend told me, since then I have witnessed it pretty much daily with eze. I find dog psychology fascinating.
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Displacement that's the term BL and I couldn't remember. We will both sleep tonight 😁
👍😴😴😴
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Nobody as yet has confirmed if the lead training with treats has worked long term for them !!!
Genuinely interested in that or any other "proven" method !!
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Worked for me. That's how I did it, gradually phased them out when I could see the position was becoming instinctive.
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It has worked for me aswell and I still always carry treats with me to reward for a particularly good performance (in the face of a huge and unexpected distraction, for example). Having said that, I'm sure it can be trained just as well without but a lot depends on the particular dog, some dogs don't lay much value on food (so they tell me :005:), but if used correctly as a tool, as opposed to a prop, then I don't think they're a problem. If "good boy" is associated with something yummy, then eventually "good boy" will be reward enough in its own right (same as the clicker), but from a dog's point of view, "good boy" on its own is not exactly a motivator. I do think its a personal choice though, there's no wrong or right way and I'm sure there will be lots of people here who train successfully without.
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Treats didn't work for us I am afraid, all dogs are different I suppose 😁
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I think the treats treatment is more liable for dogs that do not hunt, put Teal on a lead and throw treats onto the ground and she will step over them to get where she can hunt. Possibly if you use this method before the dog learns to hunt you may have more success.
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Hi Jeff
Eze would take the treat then start pulling / hunting again 😁
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Hi Jeff
Eze would take the treat then start pulling / hunting again 😁
That's what happened with Millie. I could walk 200 yards with her glued to my side if I had a treat in my hand. Give her the treat and away she would go. Also I didn't like the fact she was constantly looking at me when I would rather she were sniffing and exploring in normal spaniel style.
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Yes I agree which is why when I do lead walks I let her have a sniff none of this dragging em forward (not saying any of the ones on here do that of course) thing for me with training with treats (and I did try it early on whilst muddling along) is that it feels like bribery in my mind. I would rather mould the behaviour into a sort of fun game in her eyes in reality she is learning how to work for me / us but doesn't know it 😁 I am not against treats as such but found it counter productive "for me"
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Yes I agree which is why when I do lead walks I let her have a sniff none of this dragging em forward (not saying any of the ones on here do that of course) thing for me with training with treats (and I did try it early on whilst muddling along) is that it feels like bribery in my mind. I would rather mould the behaviour into a sort of fun game in her eyes in reality she is learning how to work for me / us but doesn't know it 😁 I am not against treats as such but found it counter productive "for me"
I know what you mean about it feeling like bribery, but if you look at it as 'payment' that's different.
I've read some very convincing articles about how food affects a dog's brain in a different way from humans so we can't think about its effects in human terms. It's so closely connected with positivity and pleasure in their brains, that you are making a deep psychological connection between the desired behaviour and positive feeling by adding food at the right moment.
However, if it doesn't work for your dog... 🤷♀️
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Hi LG
I think it depends on the dog (as you allude to) with eze, and I suspect murphys law its not that she is not motivated by food, she loves biscuits or chicken bits or whatever BUT its as though she accepts the treat as a given right. Maybe its how you approach early training and effectively train the dog to associate food being a reward as opposed to food being, well, food. In other words it's a failing on my part but on the plus side I have THE BALL to fall back on. The only thing that trumps a ball is game but only when working as strangely a ball will trump game if we were to bump into game on the lane or in the field, context I suppose. Strange things cockers aren't they 😁
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Hi LG
I think it depends on the dog (as you allude to) with eze, and I suspect murphys law its not that she is not motivated by food, she loves biscuits or chicken bits or whatever BUT its as though she accepts the treat as a given right. Maybe its how you approach early training and effectively train the dog to associate food being a reward as opposed to food being, well, food. In other words it's a failing on my part but on the plus side I have THE BALL to fall back on. The only thing that trumps a ball is game but only when working as strangely a ball will trump game if we were to bump into game on the lane or in the field, context I suppose. Strange things cockers aren't they 😁
I don't think its a failing on your part Ian, there's no right and wrong way, there are lots of ways of training positively, food and treats are just one. A whole change in attitude towards training, backed, again, by the food industry has us all buying and using treats probably a lot more often than years ago. All my trainers have advised "lots of really tasty treats". To be honest, I also think its a matter of convenience, especially in a less rural environment where training has to be done on the street. Giving food and treats is how most of show love, thanks or reward or to "entice" (the lady loves milk tray ;)). It really is a matter of personal choice, the dog and what you're trying to train, howeved I do agree that it can be easy to fall into the trap of it turning into bribery, I admit I've done this myself on occasions. At the end of the day, its what works for you and the proof of the pudding is in the eating, if you're getting the result you want, then that's the right method and you seem to be doing ok with your little lady! :D
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Morning Jayne
Thanks, yes there certainly seems to be many methods and techniques and "some" camps are very set in there ways. I would and have tried all sorts of things for all sorts of end results and to be honest I probably adapted as things progressed. I certainly used edible reward early on as at that time I did not know about things like capturing and shaping and rewarding with things like hunting and the very fact that the retrieve is in "some" dogs certainly WCS a reward in itself.
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My Marley walks to heel with the lead on. He occasionally goes a little ahead of me. What I did was whenever he pulled I would check him with the lead and stop walking for a few seconds everytime he pulled. It took a couple of months. You must not give up. The key is consistency don't show any weakness.
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Oh I forgot keep the lead quite short too so he doesn't have the option of going anywhere.
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My Marley walks to heel with the lead on. He occasionally goes a little ahead of me. What I did was whenever he pulled I would check him with the lead and stop walking for a few seconds everytime he pulled. It took a couple of months. You must not give up. The key is consistency don't show any weakness.
Hi! What do you mean by "check with the lead"?
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I just tug on the lead slightly. Sometimes I will stop walking or walk in the the opposite direction. The best method I've found is just stop walking and he will hop back into heel. This took a month or so.
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I just tug on the lead slightly. Sometimes I will stop walking or walk in the the opposite direction. The best method I've found is just stop walking and he will hop back into heel. This took a month or so.
Out of interest is it proofed or does it need constant maintenance as in constant lead pops. ??
If I stop my girl also hops back to heal but will then start pulling again so this method does not work for me.
Ps
Once again I have found myself in hols in different area and she is pulling again, strangely last time we were away about six weeks ago she was really good, go figure ??
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I just tug on the lead slightly. Sometimes I will stop walking or walk in the the opposite direction. The best method I've found is just stop walking and he will hop back into heel. This took a month or so.
Out of interest is it proofed or does it need constant maintenance as in constant lead pops. ??
If I stop my girl also hops back to heal but will then start pulling again so this method does not work for me.
Ps
Once again I have found myself in hols in different area and she is pulling again, strangely last time we were away about six weeks ago she was really good, go figure ??
That's exactly the same with Humphrey, there are stretches of our walk where, in the past, we've trained heel without lead and he just walks to heel automatically there now and so I do think its a habit/learned behaviour thing. I imagine that the only solution is constant training in different places with different levels of distraction but that requires a lot more determination. I admit to tending to avoid training in crowded areas and most of our walks are in the countryside so I suppose I really shouldn't be surprised that we haven't perfected the loose lead in all situations! ;)
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He does sometimes get a bit ahead of me if his whole body gets in front or if I feel any tension on the lead I stop walking and he jumps back to heel. His head is nearly always in front but he's next to me so i do not mind it's not crufts. Don't give him too much lead just enough so it's not tight. Keep him on the left. Have your arm down by your side. Do this constantly whenever he's on lead. He's now 18 months. I got him at 7 months old. I would say it took a good couple of months. He did pull me a lot to start with it was killing me but I had to crack it. I live in a place where I must walk him on lead at times. I would tug him back not hard and say heel. Eventually he got the message that if he pulled il tug him and we go nowhere. He doesnt pull now. Be persistent don't give in. Try walking in inside circles or figure 8s everyday whenever you are out walking. It's hard work but it will be worth it I've now got a young dog who doesn't pull me.
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Marley is a dominant little dog. I was told by the previous owner that I must be persistent and show confidence if I show him any weakness he will pick up on it and walk all over me. When my mother takes him for a walk he's totally different he will pull her and he goes nuts when he sees her. That's because she treats him like a baby. She lets him get away with all sorts. He certainly keeps me on my toes. He's a little tinker but he's very affectionate.