CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: ips on April 25, 2017, 04:10:01 PM
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Has anyone ever used a harness instead of a slip lead whilst working there dog. ??
Re - harness
Is there a similar product to the wydwl harness but a top attachment (must attach close to neck not halfway down the back and one that is as easy to put on with one fastening point without any need to put a leg through etc ????
This would probably be my ideal set up as long as it was available in brown or green 😉
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Have you looked at Perfect Fit harnesses? They come in three separate pieces so you can custom fit and get both front and back anchor points. On Henry the back ring is in the middle of his shoulder blades, just below the base of his neck, but maybe not has high as you would like.
They come in a huge variety of colours.
It takes three clicks to put on rather than one, but it doesn't go over the head or through the legs so you can get it on and off pretty quickly once you get the hang of it.
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Thanks LG but I need one click to put on.
Been browsing and what about ezydog quick fit that seems to fit the bill, anyone had one ?
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harnesses just encourage a dog to pull - I'd persevere with a slip lead ;)
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have you tried a slip lead in a figure of 8?
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harnesses just encourage a dog to pull - I'd persevere with a slip lead ;)
Not convinced with that. I have tried a few and it made no difference either way.
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have you tried a slip lead in a figure of 8?
Yes she goes mad though, hates it.
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have you tried a slip lead in a figure of 8?
I'm with Helen on this - the figure of 8 worked with Coral. Harness don't teach the dog anything. It's a little like teaching bite inhibition; the dog needs to learn how much it can pull or not.....the figure of 8 should be loose enough they don't feel it but if Eze pulls she will find it uncomfortable immediately and drop back. She won't like it but it does work ;)
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have you tried a slip lead in a figure of 8?
I'm with Helen on this - the figure of 8 worked with Coral. Harness don't teach the dog anything. It's a little like teaching bite inhibition; the dog needs to learn how much it can pull or not.....the figure of 8 should be loose enough they don't feel it but if Eze pulls she will find it uncomfortable immediately and drop back. She won't like it but it does work ;)
Yes it does work very well and on the occasions I have done it I have told myself that I will ignore her displeasure and that eventually she will get used to it BUT I am a big softie and I cant bear to see her so stressed.
I am in no doubt that a harness will not teach her anything however I believe they are a useful tool in order to ensure whilst you are "attempting" to train not pulling or heel work the dog is not doing itself any harm. Plus Imo if the dog is in discomfort ie pulling on a slip lead it will not be in a very good state of mind therefore less receptive to any command. Not saying I am right but that is how I read it with my dog.
Why do we default to putting a restraint around the neck ? Is it because that is what we have always done ? Is there not a better way ?
My opinion is that a simple, lightweight harness that is easy to put on (one single buckle for instance) and the lead is part of it and high up the back close to the neck would be the very best option. I believe the whole lead thing is now outdated. The closest I have found to my requirements so far is a ezydog quick release but I am still open to offers.
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A slip lead is a perfect tool for when your dog is working.
Training to walk to heal and walk on a lead are boring bits of gundog training but essential. That's the better way IMHO to prevent pulling - if your dog walks to heal nicely it's not a "restraint around their neck". My advice would be to go a gundog trainer and go back to basics.
I doubt that you will find anyone that works their dogs regularly that uses a harness instead of a slip. I couldn't imagine dealing with getting a harness and lead off and on my dog - it all needs to be as seamless as possible.
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A slip lead is a perfect tool for when your dog is working.
Training to walk to heal and walk on a lead are boring bits of gundog training but essential. That's the better way IMHO to prevent pulling - if your dog walks to heal nicely it's not a "restraint around their neck". My advice would be to go a gundog trainer and go back to basics.
I doubt that you will find anyone that works their dogs regularly that uses a harness instead of a slip. I couldn't imagine dealing with getting a harness and lead off and on my dog - it all needs to be as seamless as possible.
Last bit is exactly my point. If there was such a harness that was easy to put on and lightweight etc then maybe we would have an alternative way of keeping our beating dogs at heel on those occasions that we al have to and the inevitable pulling that goes with the territory.
Gundog trainer is not an option for me. I have got this far on my own and I am quite happy with things plus I do not like formal training either group or one to one. I prefer to middle along on my own 😁
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I think you either need to be absolutely consistent with your heelwork training and never ever allow any transgressions, and proof it while in the presence of birds - dogging in and on the shoot days - and still allow no transgressions - if you wish your dog to be impeccably behaved and never ever pull while on lead. Rather than looking for a suitable harness to use while working your dog in case it pulls. If you aren't as consistent as above (like me) then you just adapt to the situation and use a slip in figure of 8 (as suggested) to counteract the pulling. My dog hates the figure of 8, but it does him no actual harm. (you have all spring, summer and dogging in before shooting starts to put the work in and get the required result - if you're keen and determined enough ;) I've never been :lol:.
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A slip lead is a perfect tool for when your dog is working.
Training to walk to heal and walk on a lead are boring bits of gundog training but essential. That's the better way IMHO to prevent pulling - if your dog walks to heal nicely it's not a "restraint around their neck". My advice would be to go a gundog trainer and go back to basics.
I doubt that you will find anyone that works their dogs regularly that uses a harness instead of a slip. I couldn't imagine dealing with getting a harness and lead off and on my dog - it all needs to be as seamless as possible.
I took Millie to a reputable gun dog trainer. He said 'ill show you how to stop her pulling, easy'
He put a slip lead on her and as soon as she started to walk ahead, gave her a very sharp yank along with a growled 'HEEL'
I just haven't got the stomach to do this as Millie is incredibly sensitive. Maybe that is where I am going wrong.
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I think you either need to be absolutely consistent with your heelwork training and never ever allow any transgressions, and proof it while in the presence of birds - dogging in and on the shoot days - and still allow no transgressions - if you wish your dog to be impeccably behaved and never ever pull while on lead. Rather than looking for a suitable harness to use while working your dog in case it pulls. If you aren't as consistent as above (like me) then you just adapt to the situation and use a slip in figure of 8 (as suggested) to counteract the pulling. My dog hates the figure of 8, but it does him no actual harm. (you have all spring, summer and dogging in before shooting starts to put the work in and get the required result - if you're keen and determined enough ;) I've never been :lol:.
Cant argue with any of that and yes I am determined it is now my lifes ambition 😁
Dogging in this year is going to be used for steadines and heelwork, last year I used it primarily for stop to flush.
Inconsistency has been my downfall on many aspects, I am the first to admit it 👍
I have concluded in the last two days that she is better on a wide ish collar rather than a slip, this mornings walk was very very good. I will continue with the collar and try to proof it.
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A slip lead is a perfect tool for when your dog is working.
Training to walk to heal and walk on a lead are boring bits of gundog training but essential. That's the better way IMHO to prevent pulling - if your dog walks to heal nicely it's not a "restraint around their neck". My advice would be to go a gundog trainer and go back to basics.
I doubt that you will find anyone that works their dogs regularly that uses a harness instead of a slip. I couldn't imagine dealing with getting a harness and lead off and on my dog - it all needs to be as seamless as possible.
I took Millie to a reputable gun dog trainer. He said 'ill show you how to stop her pulling, easy'
He put a slip lead on her and as soon as she started to walk ahead, gave her a very sharp yank along with a growled 'HEEL'
I just haven't got the stomach to do this as Millie is incredibly sensitive. Maybe that is where I am going wrong.
Don't worry I am going wrong with you my friend, I have witnessed some pretty full on lead yanks and scruffings, funny thing is the dogs still pulled the week after 😞 as far as I can tell that type of aversive merely escalates the level required next time.
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Sticking my oar in here rather cheekily as I don't have a working dog and have never used a slip lead. But just wanted to say that SOMETIMES there is a better way of doing things, even if the current way is almost perfect, and looking to find an alternative is always an interesting pursuit. History is full of people doing things the best way, until a better way comes along.
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Sticking my oar in here rather cheekily as I don't have a working dog and have never used a slip lead. But just wanted to say that SOMETIMES there is a better way of doing things, even if the current way is almost perfect, and looking to find an alternative is always an interesting pursuit. History is full of people doing things the best way, until a better way comes along.
Exactly my point LG but rather more eloquently than my attempt. Slip lead, in fact lead and collar must go back thousands of years. We now have some excellent harnesses available not to stop pulling per se but for the comfort of dog and owner. The problem is that nobody has designed one suitable for a beating line and or between drives. I can picture exactly what I think would work but cannot find it. Maybe I have a dragons den moment 😁
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This is the closest thing I have come across that "might" work
However ideally it would be thinner (so it is small in your pocket or around your neck) and simpler similar to the wydwl concept and the lead part needs to be part of it.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002SZ66YO/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1
Ps
I bet you could put this on pretty much as quick as a slip. Once adjusted its one buckle, job done 👍
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Can I suggest you get in touch with Meg Heath -https://megheathdogleads.co.uk? She designs and makes leads and harnesses of the best quality and might be interested in designing something with you as a prototype.
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Sticking my oar in here rather cheekily as I don't have a working dog and have never used a slip lead. But just wanted to say that SOMETIMES there is a better way of doing things, even if the current way is almost perfect, and looking to find an alternative is always an interesting pursuit. History is full of people doing things the best way, until a better way comes along.
Exactly my point LG but rather more eloquently than my attempt. Slip lead, in fact lead and collar must go back thousands of years. We now have some excellent harnesses available not to stop pulling per se but for the comfort of dog and owner. The problem is that nobody has designed one suitable for a beating line and or between drives. I can picture exactly what I think would work but cannot find it. Maybe I have a dragons den moment 😁
getting a bit lost here... why would you need a harness if your dog has been taught not to pull? Because then the slip lead wouldn't cause any discomfort, and is cheap and simple and available.
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Can I suggest you get in touch with Meg Heath -https://megheathdogleads.co.uk? She designs and makes leads and harnesses of the best quality and might be interested in designing something with you as a prototype.
Thanks, that may be very interesting.
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Sticking my oar in here rather cheekily as I don't have a working dog and have never used a slip lead. But just wanted to say that SOMETIMES there is a better way of doing things, even if the current way is almost perfect, and looking to find an alternative is always an interesting pursuit. History is full of people doing things the best way, until a better way comes along.
Exactly my point LG but rather more eloquently than my attempt. Slip lead, in fact lead and collar must go back thousands of years. We now have some excellent harnesses available not to stop pulling per se but for the comfort of dog and owner. The problem is that nobody has designed one suitable for a beating line and or between drives. I can picture exactly what I think would work but cannot find it. Maybe I have a dragons den moment 😁
getting a bit lost here... why would you need a harness if your dog has been taught not to pull? Because then the slip lead wouldn't cause any discomfort, and is cheap and simple and available.
Sorry probably my fault for not explaining properly.
Lead training coming on very well BUT unless I can proof it on birds then i expect another season of being pulled around the beating line during those enforced lead moments, obviously during those times I cannot spend time training loose lead and I don't like the pressure she puts on her neck with a slip. Plus I just don't like things on her neck it feels wrong to me, she never ever wears a collar on its own. Plus as LG so eloquently put it I am looking into a more modern alternative.
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Sorry probably my fault for not explaining properly.
Lead training coming on very well BUT unless I can proof it on birds then i expect another season of being pulled around the beating line during those enforced lead moments, obviously during those times I cannot spend time training loose lead and I don't like the pressure she puts on her neck with a slip. Plus I just don't like things on her neck it feels wrong to me, she never ever wears a collar on its own. Plus as LG so eloquently put it I am looking into a more modern alternative.
Not meaning to sound argumentative, but if you aren't able to enforce your loose lead training during drives/on the shoot then you're very unlikely to succeed with it in this context. Dogs are clever creatures and despite some suggesting to the contrary - they are able to work out different behaviours are acceptable in different contexts. If you behave differently on the shoot and put a harness on her so pulling is less uncomfortable for her and so allow her to pull, she will just learn that pulling when beating/between drives is acceptable, but pulling on normal walks/while dogging in isn't. You'd either need to be harsher with her, or be prepared to continue your loose lead training while actually working her. Back to: if you need a harness on the shoot (or anywhere else), then you've sort of already given up on having a proofed reliable heel.
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Dogs are clever creatures and despite some suggesting to the contrary - they are able to work out different behaviours are acceptable in different contexts.
Totally agree with this. My two girls never pull me when walking on a lead, as I don't allow it. They have learnt that if they pull me, we simply don't go anywhere ;) When they were younger and tried to pull, I just stood rigid until they stopped. However, if someone else walks them, they soon realize that I am not at the end of the lead and will take advantage by pulling :005:
I also don't allow my dogs on the sofa so they don't attempt to get on when I am in the room. However, my youngest daughter likes cuddling up to them and they will craftily get up when I am not at home :005:
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Sorry probably my fault for not explaining properly.
Lead training coming on very well BUT unless I can proof it on birds then i expect another season of being pulled around the beating line during those enforced lead moments, obviously during those times I cannot spend time training loose lead and I don't like the pressure she puts on her neck with a slip. Plus I just don't like things on her neck it feels wrong to me, she never ever wears a collar on its own. Plus as LG so eloquently put it I am looking into a more modern alternative.
Not meaning to sound argumentative, but if you aren't able to enforce your loose lead training during drives/on the shoot then you're very unlikely to succeed with it in this context. Dogs are clever creatures and despite some suggesting to the contrary - they are able to work out different behaviours are acceptable in different contexts. If you behave differently on the shoot and put a harness on her so pulling is less uncomfortable for her and so allow her to pull, she will just learn that pulling when beating/between drives is acceptable, but pulling on normal walks/while dogging in isn't. You'd either need to be harsher with her, or be prepared to continue your loose lead training while actually working her. Back to: if you need a harness on the shoot (or anywhere else), then you've sort of already given up on having a proofed reliable heel.
Um, yes I see your point 👍
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Dogs are clever creatures and despite some suggesting to the contrary - they are able to work out different behaviours are acceptable in different contexts.
Totally agree with this. My two girls never pull me when walking on a lead, as I don't allow it. They have learnt that if they pull me, we simply don't go anywhere ;) When they were younger and tried to pull, I just stood rigid until they stopped. However, if someone else walks them, they soon realize that I am not at the end of the lead and will take advantage by pulling :005:
I also don't allow my dogs on the sofa so they don't attempt to get on when I am in the room. However, my youngest daughter likes cuddling up to them and they will craftily get up when I am not at home :005:
WHAT, you mean doggie isn't sposed to go on me sofa 😁
Oh bother....too late now 😁
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Are these examples of the dog 'working out' that one behaviour is not allowed with a certain person / in a certain circumstance, or is it in fact example of the dog have sets of rules that are mutually exclusive, depending on the combination of circumstances? The dog pairs a person and a situation and knows what behaviour is expected. It's not that the dog is thinking "X isn't here so I can be cheeky and get on the sofa' but rather 'Y is here therefore sofa time is acceptable'.
Projecting human reactions like 'taking advantage' and 'sneaking' may not be the best way of understanding what's going on in the dog's head.
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Are these examples of the dog 'working out' that one behaviour is not allowed with a certain person / in a certain circumstance, or is it in fact example of the dog have sets of rules that are mutually exclusive, depending on the combination of circumstances? The dog pairs a person and a situation and knows what behaviour is expected. It's not that the dog is thinking "X isn't here so I can be cheeky and get on the sofa' but rather 'Y is here therefore sofa time is acceptable'.
Projecting human reactions like 'taking advantage' and 'sneaking' may not be the best way of understanding what's going on in the dog's head.
Interesting observation.
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Yes, my girls have worked out what I consider acceptable behaviour as they do get off the sofa pretty sharpish when I get home and find them there :005: :005:
Sometimes its difficult to stop 'projecting human reactions' on to them as they are such a close part of my family ;)
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Are these examples of the dog 'working out' that one behaviour is not allowed with a certain person / in a certain circumstance, or is it in fact example of the dog have sets of rules that are mutually exclusive, depending on the combination of circumstances? The dog pairs a person and a situation and knows what behaviour is expected. It's not that the dog is thinking "X isn't here so I can be cheeky and get on the sofa' but rather 'Y is here therefore sofa time is acceptable'.
Projecting human reactions like 'taking advantage' and 'sneaking' may not be the best way of understanding what's going on in the dog's head.
I agree with you Londongirl. Our old girl Betty definitely followed contextual rules.
Example: Not allowed on sofa at the apartment EVER. OK to go on sofa at house if only I were there with her. BUT not allowed on couch at house if Sarka was home.
And it wasn't a matter of it being a different couch as the couch from the apartment was moved to the house and Betty applied the same contextual rules.
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