CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: bizzylizzy on May 03, 2017, 01:40:25 PM
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Have just bought a German DVD on DIY grooming a cocker (separate subject, watch this space.... :005:)
The groomer, who's also a breeder, says that the multi coloured cockers and roans etc tend to be more energetic and full of spirit than the single coloured dogs, who are generally quieter and more focused on people. Just wondered if there's any truth in that? I find it hard to believe that colour can effect temperament ?
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Spaniel Aid have commented several times saying goldens tend to be more challenging than other colours. And judging by murphy, they may be right.
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Spaniel Aid have commented several times saying goldenseal tend to be more challenging than other colours. And judging by murphy, they may be right.
I have heard same......and can confirm same.
However I am currently enjoying some calm as eze is in season and quite lethargic. 😁
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Er.............Ollie you can see from my inset - well to put it bluntly he is still a challenge at nine.
As for my late Jay, he was a golden show cocker and a sweeter gentle baby you could ever wish to meet.
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I read somewhere about some research indicating that solids, specificly red/golds had the most challenging temper. That seems to be the most popular theory I've come across. People always make jokes about my red cocker, asking if she is especially feisty :P And she kind of fits the stereotype, being somewhat hyper and nervous by nature. Don't know how scientific the research was because I didn't really read too much about it. But it wouldn't surprise me if the genes that code for color could also affect other things, such as trainability and energy level. All dogs started out looking the same, and as we bred them to get the temper and abilities we wanted, the appearance started changing too. And then of course we started breeding for looks and that's where it all went wrong, but the appearance started changing before we started obsessing over looks, when most dogs were still bred for their usefullness. I saw a documentary where they tried domesticating foxes by choosing to breed the friendliest individuals. And surprisingly the appearance changed over the genereations even though they bred for temper not looks. Interesting stuff really :)
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I read somewhere about some research indicating that solids, specificly red/golds had the most challenging temper. That seems to be the most popular theory I've come across. People always make jokes about my red cocker, asking if she is especially feisty :P And she kind of fits the stereotype, being somewhat hyper and nervous by nature. Don't know how scientific the research was because I didn't really read too much about it. But it wouldn't surprise me if the genes that code for color could also affect other things, such as trainability and energy level. All dogs started out looking the same, and as we bred them to get the temper and abilities we wanted, the appearance started changing too. I saw a documentary where they tried domesticating foxes by choosing to breed the friendliest individuals. And surprisingly the appearance changed over the genereations even though they bred for temper not looks. Interesting stuff really :)
An interesting point, I hadn't really thought of it like that but I suppose its logical. Humphrey has plenty of energy when he needs it but I wouldn't describe him as being over energetic, he's quite content to mooch around the house ifnthe weather's bad and there's nothing else on offer, he also has a very gentle temperament, so I suppose there could be something in it after all!!! Facinating subject!
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As I am old :005: I seem to remember that it was the solid colours that may have suffered with rage syndrome. Golds at one point had a reputation for being 'snappy' and I think that may have been the reason for the roans becoming popular.
I have heard people say that orange roans were not as bright (or maybe they are stubborn!)
NO offence to anybody here!
At the end of the day I think good breeding and upbringing counts for alot. ;)
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I suppose there could be something in it after all!!! Facinating subject!
Yep, or it could be what I read was complete fiction :005: But yeah, very interesting! I always feel a little badass when people say red cockers are "difficult", like I have a rottweiler or something. Allthough most rotties I've met have been a lot more mellow than my cocker so maybe a poor example of badass, but they look tough and my little girl looks like a disney character :005:
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I've heard similar things - the parti colours and roans are supposedly better tempered/trainable than the solids. I've also heard it mentioned about the goldens being the most difficult! Really interesting subject. All I know is that I took Ernest (the choc sable pup) to his first agility lesson yesterday and he rocked it! Despite being not the brightest crayon in the box at home [emoji23]
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As I am old :005: I seem to remember that it was the solid colours that may have suffered with rage syndrome. Golds at one point had a reputation for being 'snappy' and I think that may have been the reason for the roans becoming popular.
I have heard people say that orange roans were not as bright (or maybe they are stubborn!)
NO offence to anybody here!
At the end of the day I think good breeding and upbringing counts for alot. ;)
My cocker spaniel book said the red/golds were more predisposed to suffer from rage, so you are probably right. Maybe that's why many people seem to think they have a more difficult temper in general? And yes breeding and upbringing counts for everything, very good point! Even rage was probably a result of bad breeding (and alot of misdiagnosing of "crazy cockers" after bad handling). It's never good for a breed to become too popular. Didn't the golden retrievers go a little nutty too in the 80's? I was a kid, but I remember cockers, goldens and gsd's were rumoured to have temperament problems after too much bad breeding.
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It's never good for a breed to become too popular.
You've hit the nail on the head there, and you're right, retrievers did take a knocking in the 80's, there were also problems with dalmations after they became flavour of the month when the Disney film came out, they suffered with deafness I seem to remember.
At least now I can blame Humphrey's dopeness intellectually challenging behaviour on his colour instead of on my training abilities!!! :005:
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I suppose there could be something in it after all!!! Facinating subject!
Yep, or it could be what I read was complete fiction :005: But yeah, very interesting! I always feel a little badass when people say red cockers are "difficult", like I have a rottweiler or something. Allthough most rotties I've met have been a lot more mellow than my cocker so maybe a poor example of badass, but they look tough and my little girl looks like a disney character :005:
I remember being in puppy class with Henry. He was the only cocker. There were labs, rotties, French bulldogs and cokerpoos aplenty. One day the trainer (who worked cockers as sniffer dogs) picked Henry up and said: He might look cute but he's the toughest dog in the room. I was really startled, and wondered if that was a good thing or not.
As it turns out, Henry is as tough as melted marshmallow.
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My daughters golden cocker, Maddie, is the sweetest natured dog ever and is brilliant with both people and other dogs. My solid black, Ollie, is very energetic and enjoys agility and can walk for miles. My Poppy though - who is a blue roan - would happily sleep all day if given the chance, and will only run for small bursts! So I beg to differ! :005:
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My daughters golden cocker, Maddie, is the sweetest natured dog ever and is brilliant with both people and other dogs. My solid black, Ollie, is very energetic and enjoys agility and can walk for miles. My Poppy though - who is a blue roan - would happily sleep all day if given the chance, and will only run for small bursts! So I beg to differ! :005:
That supports what I tend to think, there are doubtless breeding lines of similar coloured dogs that carry the same behavioural traits but I find it hard to believe that one can generalize to that extent.
:D
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Rhodri is a solid golden boy and he is the most gentle dog I could wish for. He loves people and other dogs, he's not a cuddly boy but he loves to jump all over you when you come in! I've never heard him growl, he's never shown any aggression - many times I've had my hand half way down his throat to retrieve some forbidden treasure!
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I suppose there could be something in it after all!!! Facinating subject!
Yep, or it could be what I read was complete fiction :005: But yeah, very interesting! I always feel a little badass when people say red cockers are "difficult", like I have a rottweiler or something. Allthough most rotties I've met have been a lot more mellow than my cocker so maybe a poor example of badass, but they look tough and my little girl looks like a disney character :005:
I didn't know that cockers were known to be hard work particularly solid colours particularly goldens....by the time it came to my attention it was too darned late 😁
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My childhood cocker was golden and was the gentlest dog that ever lived. My three blue roans, Milo and Dylan were/are lovely and kind dogs, and the rescue Finn was a nightmare, but I think he was a bit mental. I had heard the red rage syndrome, but haven,t personally come across it.
I saw that documentary about the foxes, it was very interesting. IIRC they were being bred for fur, and they wanted a calmer temperament, but as they bred for this the foxes became a bit like dogs, with smaller teeth etc.
I don't know if colour makes any difference, I don't think it does in Scotties which is the other breed I have experience with.
Lesley and Dylan
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That supports what I tend to think, there are doubtless breeding lines of similar coloured dogs that carry the same behavioural traits but I find it hard to believe that one can generalize to that extent.
:D
I guess that's what it boils down to. Saying that one colour is more prone to any behavioural trait doesn't mean that all dogs of that colour will have those traits, only that it is more common to occur in dogs of that colour. Like you say, probably due to some lines carrying these traits as well as the colour :)
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I didn't know that cockers were known to be hard work particularly solid colours particularly goldens....by the time it came to my attention it was too darned late 😁
:lol2: Hahaha! Growing up our family spent alot of time with three other families who all had red cockers, so I knew all the myths and most of the truths. But they were two shows (littermates) and an american. I had no clue what the working lines would bring to the mix :005: I have loved every moment though. Training a cocker is the most rewarding thing in the world, no shortcuts, you really have to work with the dog to get the best results. Brilliant little creatures! I'm assuming all the colours are a joy to own/be owned by. But from now on I'll take Bizzylizzys advice and blame all my shortcomings as a trainer on the fur. You know, they say bitches are tougher to train than males too so really I must be fantastic for even having taught her to sit :rofl1:
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I saw that documentary about the foxes, it was very interesting. IIRC they were being bred for fur, and they wanted a calmer temperament, but as they bred for this the foxes became a bit like dogs, with smaller teeth etc.
Lesley and Dylan
Thanks! I couldn't remember why they were doing it, thought it was an experiment, but now it all makes sense!
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I 'think' I recall from several years ago that Mark (Top Barks) has done a lot of research into this and completed a paper on it.
I may be wrong but hopefully another COL veteran will remember better than I.
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I didn't know that cockers were known to be hard work particularly solid colours particularly goldens....by the time it came to my attention it was too darned late 😁
:lol2: Hahaha! Growing up our family spent alot of time with three other families who all had red cockers, so I knew all the myths and most of the truths. But they were two shows (littermates) and an american. I had no clue what the working lines would bring to the mix :005: I have loved every moment though. Training a cocker is the most rewarding thing in the world, no shortcuts, you really have to work with the dog to get the best results. Brilliant little creatures! I'm assuming all the colours are a joy to own/be owned by. But from now on I'll take Bizzylizzys advice and blame all my shortcomings as a trainer on the fur. You know, they say bitches are tougher to train than males too so really I must be fantastic for even having taught her to sit :rofl1:
Lol 😁
I must be brilliant then, solid colour, gold and a bitch. Sits, and does some other stuff too (even if sometimes you don't want your sock retrieving from the washer) 😁
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I 'think' I recall from several years ago that Mark (Top Barks) has done a lot of research into this and completed a paper on it.
I may be wrong but hopefully another COL veteran will remember better than I.
I believe this is the case - there is a thread on here about his dissertation.
We have four cockers - blue roan show type who is very hard work, can be grumpy, obstinate, defiant whilst being anxious and very high energy. She is capable of working 6 plus drives at a steady pace (compared to the workers) but is then zonked.
Two black and white workers who are opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of energy. Both trials lines, one is very agile, affectionate and trusting, who works all day finding runners and sweeping each drive. The other is a high speed whirling dervish who trashes her way through obstacles including the orange netting in scurries! She's very affectionate in the house but happiest hunting (generally for herself >:D).
Then there's the golden wcs. She's currently in season and very irritable. Most of the time she's biddable, a superb retriever, good hunter when focussed but still quite immature at under 3 years old and needs sharpening up (steadiness) before the season.
I'm not convinced colour plays that big a part in temperament; lineage and selective breeding certainly does and I guess it then depends on the colour of the foundation bitch as to the predominant colour of the affix/lineage?
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I 'think' I recall from several years ago that Mark (Top Barks) has done a lot of research into this and completed a paper on it.
I may be wrong but hopefully another COL veteran will remember better than I.
I was thinking the same thing. If I remember rightly he found that there was no link between colour and behaviour.
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Found it! Top Barks has given his findings about halfway down this page....
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=108579.msg1587424#msg1587424
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in answer to your question, no it doesn't ;)
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Found it! Top Barks has given his findings about halfway down this page....
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=108579.msg1587424#msg1587424
Thanks for finding the link Archie bean, that was really interesting!! The COL archives must hold so much facinating stuff, its good there are still so many of you long term members out there with good memories. Been a good discussion, thanks everyone!
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The genetics is that Golden is naturally rare.
At some stage they were very much in demand. Probably still are.
So there may have been more in-breeding.
Mine is from a Golden mum and a Blue-Roan dad. He's very nicely marked as a result. Only one with any Gold about it, in the litter of ten.
He's really easy to train but determined and awkward when the mood takes.
I think these Spaniels are often a handful and need owners who can handle very "doggy" behaviour.
Certainly need a lot of contact and exercise.
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Interesting Alan. Dylan also has a golden mum and a blue roan dad. He is a very dark roan, though he had more white as a pup it has mostly been subsumed in the dark hair. He is a delightful dog, and was easy to train. He's had his moments, but has a really lovely nature.
Lesley and Dylan
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Watch out for the black ones, especially if they are called Teal,
IMHO its a load of danglies, red ones yellow or whatever the colour becomes the in thing and bad breeders will breed anything to make money that's why the reds were known for rage breeding from dogs that were genetically flawed because there was money to be made.
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Watch out for the black ones, especially if they are called Teal,
IMHO its a load of danglies, red ones yellow or whatever the colour becomes the in thing and bad breeders will breed anything to make money that's why the reds were known for rage breeding from dogs that were genetically flawed because there was money to be made.
That makes a lot of sense.
1. A specific colour becomes popular
2. Breeders ignore temperament and prioritise that colour
3. Poor temperament gets bred into that colour
4. There are more dogs of that colour and the poor temperament gets noticed
5. People erroneously think it is the genetic components of the colour causing the poor temperament.
The upshot IS that more dogs of that colour have poor temperaments. But it is not the colour per se that has caused it.
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I think that put what I think very well.
One thing we did when choosing a puppy was insist on meeting BOTH parents.
We expected that quite soon the dog would be coping with a baby in the family and were really keen to pick a dog that would suit this.
We found a couple keeping both as domestic dogs and the pups were born in their front-room.
The dad was an especially calm and friendly dog called Diesel.
Things worked out pretty well. Four of us had a part in raising the puppy. I did the most having recently retired.
But we had to cope with resource-guarding, recall and all the often mentioned Cocker crazy-stuff.
Not an easy breed I think. I've had Terriers before and they seemed much easier.
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Watch out for the black ones, especially if they are called Teal,
IMHO its a load of danglies, red ones yellow or whatever the colour becomes the in thing and bad breeders will breed anything to make money that's why the reds were known for rage breeding from dogs that were genetically flawed because there was money to be made.
That makes a lot of sense.
1. A specific colour becomes popular
2. Breeders ignore temperament and prioritise that colour
3. Poor temperament gets bred into that colour
4. There are more dogs of that colour and the poor temperament gets noticed
5. People erroneously think it is the genetic components of the colour causing the poor temperament.
The upshot IS that more dogs of that colour have poor temperaments. But it is not the colour per se that has caused it.
Yes you've both hit the nail firmly on the head!
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Watch out for the black ones, especially if they are called Teal,
IMHO its a load of danglies, red ones yellow or whatever the colour becomes the in thing and bad breeders will breed anything to make money that's why the reds were known for rage breeding from dogs that were genetically flawed because there was money to be made.
That makes a lot of sense.
1. A specific colour becomes popular
2. Breeders ignore temperament and prioritise that colour
3. Poor temperament gets bred into that colour
4. There are more dogs of that colour and the poor temperament gets noticed
5. People erroneously think it is the genetic components of the colour causing the poor temperament.
The upshot IS that more dogs of that colour have poor temperaments. But it is not the colour per se that has caused it.
A bit like the fact that its been suggested that golden retrievers have bitten more than any other dog - may be to do with fact they are so popular and more about numbers being bred than anything
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My red/golden girl was a gentle little soul, my black and tan is laid back but the choc and tan is not known as the greased weasel for nothing. Her mum is gentle and loves to cuddle, but in the garden she hunts and lead the others into naughtiness..