CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Knitwearisforwinners on May 16, 2017, 08:43:18 AM
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Hey everyone, it's my first post here, having joined recently and lurked for a while :) I wonder if anyone has advice, please, about a situation which is breaking my heart with our five month Cocker puppy.
Teddy is our second dog, and joined our family to live with us, our two children (7&9), our five year old cocker bitch and our cats. We collected him at almost nine weeks, and within the first week we nearly lost him due to terrible diarrhoea. Since then, he has swiftly become my most challenging dog ever! Since week one, he has resource guarded food, but has come a long with way training around being interrupted during a meal for something nicer, and has gone from snarling and growling at a human or canine approach into the room whilst he was eating dinner, to soft and sweet, looking up in anticipation. Mealtimes are now much, much calmer, and although he eats away from everyone, he also tolerates me wandering around him when I have had to.
However, when he has found or stolen food (an occupational hazard with children and cats!), he has become increasingly aggressive whilst he guards it, to the point where I have had to shut children in one room, dogs in another and stand in the doorway out of eyeline, until I could draw him away and send him down the garden with the other dog/s, then removing all traces of the food. He has also shown aggression to myself, my husband and my children when being handled (growling and posturing), including being asked to move off a bed and simply being stroked, as well as towards my children when they have entered my bedroom first thing in the morning. I don't in any way blame Teddy for his behaviour, but as he grows older, I am increasingly concerned for the safety of my family and other pets. I am also increasingly concerned for my bitch's happiness; they used to play, but now she puts up with, and tries to ignore, his attempts to play, looking sad and resigned.
I have never owned a dog which displayed aggression to me in my own home before, and so it was a shock when it began, and has been a very, very difficult journey for me and for us as a family. Moreover, as time goes on, I am concerned that we are being accustomed to Teddy's way of communicating, and growling, barking and snapping feels more and more like the 'norm'. This worries me, and I never ever want to feel complacent about this behaviour when we have children in the house almost all the time.
We have had vet, behaviourist and trainer input, but I think what I want to ask you wonderful is this: has anyone else experienced this level of aggression from such a young puppy and what did you do? What has been the outcome? Do we stand a chance of making this work, or will this simply escalate as he grows older and matures? Am I taking too big a risk in having him in the house and working with this behaviour when I have young children?
I would be so grateful for an advice, information or stories :) Thank you in advance.
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Hi. I feel for you. Although not as extreme I have similar problems with my second dog, Bramble.
Did the behaviourist help at all?
I can pinpoint when Bramble became a guarder after I was jumped on, in a friendly way, by a lab who was after the treats I was carrying. Bramble was seven months at the time and possibly going through the second fear period.
We are retired but look after our grandson several times in the week. Bramble guards me from him and will bark and growl. She guards me from our other dog and her toys. I can't sit on the floor or she will guard me etc etc.
We have to manage the situations all the time. Do you manage to stay calm when it's happening -they pick up on our tension so easily. I didn't initially which probably made things worse, now I try to take it in my stride.
I'm lucky though as grandson isn't here all the time so we get some respite, whereas you have it all the time. With management things are better but it isn't how I envisaged life with two dogs.
There are a few on here with guardy dogs. Hope they can offer more help. X
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I hope Emma reads this (Archiebean) as she's
had to deal with guarding issues.
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Hi Lesley,
Thank you so much for your reply. I am just at my wit's end about whether I am being reckless in keeping Teddy, but we love him so dearly.
At the start, I feel as though Teddy's behaviour sent me straight in to a very primal fight or flight, almost crippled with a fear I've never experienced before. This made it very challenging for a few weeks, as I froze when situations happened, and couldn't make any choices about my response as my brain had kind of shut down - does that make any sense at all? Now, I am able to stay calm and controlled, but it's very difficult to know what to do for the best. And the more events which happen, the more this becomes learned behaviour, you know? I am utterly worn out with the constant vigilance needed, and the thought of fifteen years of managing such challenging behaviour honestly exhausts me.
How do you manage the behaviour with Bramble? Is she crated when your grandchildren visit?
Thanks again :)
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Hi 8 Hairy Feet,
Thanks for that. Anyone with experience of this, I would be delighted to hear from :)
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Hi Knitwear ( :005:)
It's Emmas birthday today so she may be out celebrating
but she documented her struggles on here so a
forum search should bring up some
pertinent post.
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Yes, I understand completely how you feel. My other dog also became fear reactive and I was panic stricken. Our trainer said there was so much tension in my voice I should use a clicker instead!
I thought I was an experienced dog owner but it's not until you have a problem that you find you're not!
It does become learned behaviour so trying to prevent them practicing is very important.
Bramble spent alot of time in her crate when grandson was younger on the advice of our trainer as children are so unpredictable. Once he got to the stage that he would sit and watch the tv quietly, we let her go in her bed in the same room. She still spends a fair amount of time in her crate.
You sound like you've made good progress with the food issues so hopefully you can carry on. He is still young. I was really upset that I would have to rehome Bramble. You have to do what's best for your family. There are two good books about guarding by Jean Donaldson -'Mine' and 'Fight'.
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Yes, this is exactly how I feel! I also really thought I was an experienced dog owner, but Teddy has taught me more in the three months we've had him than all of my other dogs combined! Our huge problem is that he has HATED the crate since the first day he came home, so the pen worked for a while, but now he can jump it! We are working on how to reinforce the pen, but he still HATES it with a passion. Pre-children, I would have struggled with this but been totally committed - with our own and other children here, I swing between feeling like this is too much of a risk to work through, and the fact that he has done well with mealtimes and maybe there is hope. It's tearing me apart to have to think about making this decision!
Can I ask you what made you finally decide that you could handle this? Was there something that made it feel manageable? And did your first dog ever find peace?
And thanks for the book recommendations - I have ordered Mine! today so will get reading that tomorrow.
Thanks so much for your replies x
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Reading your posts is like reading about my Ollie when he was younger, and honestly, if we had had children I don't know that we would have been able to keep him. He is 22 months now and so much better in many ways but those changes didn't start until he was about 11 months old and it was definitely very hard around the 7/8 month old stage. We noticed a dramatic difference after neutering, I have to say (which we got done around the 10 month mark, I think - it was about a month after neutering that we noticed a very real lessening in behaviours that I don't think can purely be accounted for by the training that we did and the general maturing that he went through.)
We persevered with the crate despite torturous sounding howls in the early stages and he came to be fine with it and use it through choice - we really did need the crate at times. so I would revisit that, especially because his behaviour in all likelihood is worse when he is tired so you need to enforce naps in places where he is guaranteed time away from the children. This will also likely lessen his likelihood of guarding other sleeping spots and protect your children from him.
I have posted a lot on this (and the body handling issues and location guarding which I believe are all related) so you could scroll through previous posts of mine to find all the threads where people are discussing these issues.
We made huge progress in body handling and location guarding to the extent that these do not seem to exist any more (however we would still need to muzzle him to handle an injury). The resource guarding is much, much better but not 100% and in the right situations (high value resource, tired dog) he will still guard and we have to lure him away from whatever is being guarded with a higher value resource.
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Good advice from Hoover.
Im not sure how I decided to carry on - but you are in a much worse position to me - at least the grandson goes home!
I had to stop feeling guilty about it all. They were my retirement hobby but I think I gave them too much attention. I should just let them be a dog. Our trainer did say if things were getting stressy, don't try to battle on but, put them in the crate. I think that helped with my decision as it gave me space and a sense of control.
I certainly would persevere with the crate. He has to have somewhere that is safe. Guarding is a form of fear so maybe confidence building, impulse control and a good 'leave' command would help eventually.
Give loads of praise when he's being good. It's so easy just to take good stuff for granted.
It has got better, but my two only tolerate each other so I'm always watching. I think Maddie still hopes Bramble is visiting and will pack her bags and leave.
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If you make a decision that he would be better in another home you should not feel guilty. It is a very hard thing if you and your family, other dog and cats are living in fear of Teddy, and you are not just making decisions about you but them as well.
It's hard to give advice without seeing the dog and even then you see a dog at a snapshot in time without knowing all the potential in the future - for improvement or alternatively for more of the same or worsening. With Ollie he had already progressed to biting and his warning system was inconsistent in that sometimes there would be the usual progression from posturing to growling and sometimes it was like there was no warning system or if there was one it would occur in the blink of an eye...growl, bark, bite with no time to avoid.
Some trainers might say if your dog gives an excellent and consistent gradual warning system and has never bitten then you might have more potential to manage or even overcome the behaviour but I guess there are a lot of 'ifs and buts'. Ian Dunbar's dog bite scale which helps assess how dangerous a dog is and which acknowledges snapping at the lower end of the scale is worth a look at
Good luck with whatever you decide.
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Cockers are smart but nervous. Somewhat different to other dogs, like the Terriers I've had before.
You need to build trust. If I give a bowl of food, or a chew or other high-value item then I leave the dog alone.
Don't give things that you may need to take away, like big bones. I can do this now, even with a big Beef-knuckle, but mine is three and we've been though all the guarding stuff.
At the puppy stage I only gave chewy treats that would disappear in a minute or so. Give it, say "on your bed" or whatever suits you. Ignore the dog but walk past showing absolutely NO INTEREST. You need to convince them that you are not a threat.
With Cockers, NO PUNISHMENT, shouting, naughty-steps, "taps" with you foot, just a small reward when they do it right. They are bright and catch-on quickly. But determined and suspicious until you bond with them.
I made a lot of progress by scent-training. This is stimulating and it's own reward. But they have to "give-up" the target. This is a way to build trust. When to session ends you put the target in the SAME PLACE, every time.
Soon they know this and are content it will come out tomorrow.
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Cockers are smart but nervous. Somewhat different to other dogs, like the Terriers I've had before.
You need to build trust. If I give a bowl of food, or a chew or other high-value item then I leave the dog alone.
Don't give things that you may need to take away, like big bones. I can do this now, even with a big Beef-knuckle, but mine is three and we've been though all the guarding stuff.
At the puppy stage I only gave chewy treats that would disappear in a minute or so. Give it, say "on your bed" or whatever suits you. Ignore the dog but walk past showing absolutely NO INTEREST. You need to convince them that you are not a threat.
With Cockers, NO PUNISHMENT, shouting, naughty-steps, "taps" with you foot, just a small reward when they do it right. They are bright and catch-on quickly. But determined and suspicious until you bond with them.
I made a lot of progress by scent-training. This is stimulating and it's own reward. But they have to "give-up" the target. This is a way to build trust. When to session ends you put the target in the SAME PLACE, every time.
Soon they know this and are content it will come out tomorrow.
I agree with much of your advice Alan. You make some good points.
But you also continue to categorise cockers based on your own dog. In my opinion, and that of cocker web sites, cockers are not generally a nervous dog at all. They are described as a happy, confident dog.
Please stop misleading people when it comes to cocker spaniel temperament.
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Cockers are smart but nervous. Somewhat different to other dogs, like the Terriers I've had before.
You need to build trust. If I give a bowl of food, or a chew or other high-value item then I leave the dog alone.
Don't give things that you may need to take away, like big bones. I can do this now, even with a big Beef-knuckle, but mine is three and we've been though all the guarding stuff.
At the puppy stage I only gave chewy treats that would disappear in a minute or so. Give it, say "on your bed" or whatever suits you. Ignore the dog but walk past showing absolutely NO INTEREST. You need to convince them that you are not a threat.
With Cockers, NO PUNISHMENT, shouting, naughty-steps, "taps" with you foot, just a small reward when they do it right. They are bright and catch-on quickly. But determined and suspicious until you bond with them.
I made a lot of progress by scent-training. This is stimulating and it's own reward. But they have to "give-up" the target. This is a way to build trust. When to session ends you put the target in the SAME PLACE, every time.
Soon they know this and are content it will come out tomorrow.
I agree with much of your advice Alan. You make some good points.
But you also continue to categorise cockers based on your own dog. In my opinion, and that of cocker web sites, cockers are not generally a nervous dog at all. They are described as a happy, confident dog.
Please stop misleading people when it comes to cocker spaniel temperament.
Maybe sensitive would be a better description?
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Oh I meet loads of Cockers. Many much more nervous that mine. On a typical Saturday morning out around hers I may meet a dozen of more. I can usually tell dogs from bitches as they are walking towards me.
There are rescues, ex puppy-farmed, locally bred workers, show types from all over the country.
As they go, mine is up with the bully-boy workers, but you drop the lid of a poo-bin and he will scream.
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Oh I meet loads of Cockers. Many much more nervous that mine. On a typical Saturday morning out around hers I may meet a dozen of more. I can usually tell dogs from bitches as they are walking towards me.
There are rescues, ex puppy-farmed, locally bred workers, show types from all over the country.
As they go, mine is up with the bully-boy workers, but you drop the lid of a poo-bin and he will scream.
What do you mean by bully-boy workers?
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Oh I meet loads of Cockers. Many much more nervous that mine. On a typical Saturday morning out around hers I may meet a dozen of more. I can usually tell dogs from bitches as they are walking towards me.
There are rescues, ex puppy-farmed, locally bred workers, show types from all over the country.
As they go, mine is up with the bully-boy workers, but you drop the lid of a poo-bin and he will scream.
It is understandable that rescues and puppy farm dogs are likely to be nervous due to their past experiences but this isn't breed specific. Out of the three dogs I've had (GSD &'GSD mix), Humphrey is by far the most confident, no problems with loud machinery, fireworks or traffic etc. He is exciteable and also sensitive but certainly not nervous and I would interpret the typical cocker gait (wonderfully described once on here as the "Bustle Trot") tail up, head up, as a visible sign of confidence. I don't think nervousness is typically cocker at all.
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I agree that sensitivity is not the same as nervousness. Henry is very sensitive to being told off - a raised voice puts him immediately on his guard, even with me (and by on guard I mean he backs off a little and gets watchful, prepared in case something unpredictable is about to happen). But he is also as confident and outgoing a dog as you're ever likely to meet. But of course, some ARE nervous, and fearful, for various reasons, none all within our control. It's generalising that isn't very helpful to the OP, I think.
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Meanwhile....... ;)
Hi and welcome. I'm so sorry to hear your woes. As others have mentioned I've been in the same position (although I have no children or cats so things were probably easier for me). I'm afraid I am currently in a very busy week with work so I can't give you the best reply but I'll just copy and paste a previous reply on the subject and tweak it a little. Do also look back at my previous posts where you can see how bad things were and how far we have come!
It's great you have a behaviourist helping. It is really important to work out exactly what the root cause is so you can address it. Outside eyes can be useful in spotting things you might miss.
The only experience I have is with Archie so I'm no expert on the issue in broader terms. He has never really guarded his food though so I can't really offer any advice there, but it sounds as though you are doing the right things. Archie didn't have a crate or a pen but I used (and still use) a baby gate to keep him out of harms way when necessary. It's easy to say (but not easy to do, especially when children are involved) but it's vital to try to avoid the situation arising in the first place. Nothing can be left lying around. Using a house line can also be useful to lead him away from sticky situations without going near the bitey end. ;) I know how hard it is to live with a guardy dog and anything that can keep the problem at bay while you work on sorting out the cause is a massive help.
The book Mine is an excellent place to start. I agree with not making an issue out of a guarding situation. My experience with Archie (who's root cause was generally nervousness and anxiety, although he would appear to be very full on friendly and confident - essentially over compensating for his issues) is that ANY kind of raised voice or trying to make him understand that what he was doing was unacceptable was absolutely the worst kind of approach. It re-inforced his worries and made him dig in and guard whatever he had even more. There was absolutely NO way I could remove an item from him without risking serious injury. He didn't back down ever and I learned the hard way that he was not bluffing when he threatened to bite me. My approach was actually counter-intuitive in that if he was guarding something I would gently praise him and tell him it was Ok, then walk away. We worked on him fetching things to swap for his favourite biscuit. "Fetch it for a biscuit" became the trigger to make him relax and eventually he learned to swap even the most prized object. It was all based on him learning to willingly GIVE me something I asked for, not me TAKING it from him.
He is now a really reformed character. He is the most loving, cuddly, gorgeous boy. That said, I know that he will always have that side to his character and I always keep an eye out for it. He rarely guards anything from me (but will occasionally push the boundaries if he is at my Mums house) but he does guard his own sick which is utterly charming of him!!! >:(
It can be hard work but It is possible come out the other side of it.
:bigarmhug:
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Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses and time. I will have a look back through relevant posts and read the advice, but I am so grateful for your replies already.
This is honestly one of the hardest things I have EVER had to manage or deal with. I feel like I'm having a breakdown at times, because in the space of an hour I can swing from 'Teddy is wonderful - we can totally do this! Look at how well socialised and trained and fab he is in SO many ways!' to 'I can't do this, Pippin is so unhappy, I'm having to shut my children in one room, Pippin in another and stay near, but not too near Teddy - this is unworkable and unfair'. Does that make any sense? He has spent today growling and barking and snarling whilst guarding first a bone (he doesn't usually guard these), then his sick (delightful!!), and being generally horrid to Pippin. I have been too worried to let anyone but me in the room he is in, because I can approach and lure him away and manage the situation, but cannot let anyone else do the same. Pippin isn't scared of him, but as time goes on, her intense dislike is growing more visible, and I fear for greater confrontations as Teddy gets older. It's just so confusing when a month ago, they played like lunatics all day long.
I think this is the crux of the problem - if it were me and the dogs, I would feel challenged, but capable. With the variables of children and a husband with much less experience of any dog, let alone one as cheeky and challenging as Teddy, I just don't know how to manage the situation. I know I could do this, but is it fair to put my children in the front line whilst I do the necessary work?
I know nobody can answer these questions for me, but it makes the question of what to do SO much harder, because I feel confident I could do this in other circumstances. And how bad is aggression?! I mean, there are definite levels of aggression with Teddy, some with soft and waggy tail and body, but growling and guarding, as though this is just the way he communicates. Then other times, it almost makes my blood run cold with the intent and feeling behind his five-month-old aggression. Have any of you experienced this too?
I know there are no easy answers, but just to be able to share my thoughts and fears and heartache is very valuable, so thank you to anyone who has made it this far!
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This is a heartbreakingly difficult situation, and I have no advice to offer, just the observation that whatever you decide will come from a place of love for all concerned - your family and your pets. That much is clear from what you have posted here.
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The vomit guarding is the worst, isn't it. Ollie once threw up in the back of the car on the beginning of a 7 hour journey from Reading to Glasgow...couldn't get him out of the car and couldn't get near the blanket that the sick was on. We had to get out of the car, leave him with his vomit for half an hour and then return with a bowl of food to lure him out.
Then other times, it almost makes my blood run cold with the intent and feeling behind his five-month-old aggression. Have any of you experienced this too?
Yes, we know this feeling. It's like the dog has entered another world, where all that matters is their ability to retain whatever they are guarding. Your blood turns cold because they are suddenly a completely unknown dog to you, prepared to do whatever it takes. Your relationship with them counts for nothing in those seconds - they are lost to the moment.
I've got to say it happens far less often for us now that he is older but that first year was a real trial. I don't know if neutering would make a difference for you, it certainly did for us. The frequency of episodes and the ferocity of response really diminished. I know a lot of people recommend not neutering until more mature which is what we eventually did but I can't help thinking that we might have had an easier time of things earlier on if we had neutered around 6 months.
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I can sympathise completely, we took Harry on as a rescue at 8 months and he was a guarder. I think life was easier for us as we don't have children, so didn't have them to worry about. Harry was very fearful and reactive to lots of situations for reasons we will never know. He would guard food, socks, toys, and yes sick :D he also guards me and still does this to a small extent.
The book Mine was execellent as was the advice and support I got on here. The approach I took was just not to give high value food, no bones or treats unless they were in his bowl , and then he had space and time to eat them in a different room so he wasn't under pressure. No toys left on the floor, and we taught Harry that the fridge held a range of wonderful and amazing things ;) if Harry found something to guard like a sock or tea towel and he wouldn't swop, then one of us would go into the kitchen and open the fridge, and wait.... we would just not look at him and what he was guarding and totally ignore what he was doing make sure he heard us rustling in the fridge, he would eventually relax enough to come and into the kitchen and see what was on offer and we would make sure it was good, then while he was having a treat the thing he was guarding would be removed.
We never got into conflict, raised voices etc or did anything to escalate the situation. I won't lie it has impacted on the way we live our life for example something like a pub meal is a no no as it can be a nightmare if Harry gets guardy over me and my husband when we have food and someone walks near our table. On the other hand he is a lovely little dog and I adore him and wouldn't change him now for the world.
It's worth getting good advice from a behaviourist, has anyone recommended Top Barks, where abouts are you? I do remember thinking wat have we done and feeling conflicted because there were days I wished we had not got a second dog, then other days I knew I could never part with him. He is 8 now and I am glad we stuck with it, he is a joy :luv: good luck hope you get the help you need xx
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I just want to say thank you again for such kind words and support through this awful sad time. I am still so very conflicted, but after having spoken at length with close family and friends yesterday, I think we are coming close to being forced to make the decision to think about rehoming Teddy. I have been in absolute pieces since then, but what it feels as though it boils down to is, either we go back to how things we were, where we know the situation (kids, cats, one dog=harmony) or we continue into what is an entirely unknown situation - nobody knows how Teddy will mature, or how much worse the aggression will become before (and if) it gets better.
I can't believe I am even writing this, as right now he is being an utter delight and is cuddled up with his head resting on my lap asleep, and my heart feels like it is breaking into pieces, but I just don't want him to spend his life having to be crated or in a separate room. And I also feel as though it isn't fair on my children or other pets as, although I really feel Teddy will be a wonderful adult dog (he already is an amazing puppy in so many ways), it doesn't feel that I have the capacity or emotional energy to give him everything he so needs to become that dog. It will take so much (it has already taken so much of my soul to come this far), and it doesn't seem fair to divide the little energy I have so thinly between him and the children, when he needs so much time and love and attention.
I think right now I am struggling because I can't imagine anyone will ever know or love him the way I do, and the thought of him frightened and confused is tearing me apart. But I have to say that hearing stories such as Harry's really gives me hope that there are wonderful people out there who can give him all that he needs and love him as much as I do. Hearing from lovely people on this forum has also helped me believe there might be someone out there for him who can do the work and enjoy years and years of utter joy with Teddy. He is the most beautiful, loving, loyal, trainable, intelligent dog, whom I adore. His recall, tricks, retrieve and off lead work is perfect; he is angel out and about with dogs, children, bikes, horses etc. It just feels too much to handle when we are all indoors and there is a constant need to be vigilant, even though I'm sure that in the grand scale of aggression, his really isn't that high. This is what makes this decision so hard; I don't know what the right thing is to do, I only know that I am exhausted and feel daunted by the work ahead of us.
I'm sorry that I have gone on and on about him here, I just need to share my love for him with people who will understand. If anyone has any advice they could give me for what to do next, if we do have to make the decision I am dreading, I would be so grateful, as ALL that matters to me in this is Teddy's wellbeing and happiness. Thank you for listening x
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You have to do what's right for you and your family. You have given it lots of thought and it sounds like the stress is telling on you.
I would say that the thinking about it and making the decision is in part the worst bit, a bit like having to make the decision about having a pet PTS where I cry for days.
If you decide to rehome him Spaniel Aid are just brilliant and would find him a good home.
It's probably one little thing that has triggered this that as humans we are completely unaware of.
Sending my love. Xxx
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You seem to have done so much that is right. I hope you don't give up.
You may just be worrying too much. I've been through worrying about a pup with aggression/guarding who I knew would soon be coping with a new baby.
I accept a fair amount of growling and opinion. For example paw drying produces loads of objections. Probably tickles. I will put a flat hand into his mouth and say "go on bite me then".
I share this dog with my son and family. About half-time, but I did five days per week when a puppy and they both worked full-time.
Yesterday we were enjoying a special bone-treat from the pet shop,really going at it!. My daughter-in-law came earlier than expected to get the dog and the baby. In a bit of a hurry.
There was much dismay and some fear that the dog would guard/be aggressive/would not go home etc.
The first thing I did was to swap his collar from mine to theirs. This produced a few warning growls.
I'd expect this. Fingers fiddilng with the collar-clasp, twice.
Then I snapped on the lead and walked out the front-door. The bone stayed behind. I shouted don't move the bone.
We came back 5 mins later and I picked up the bone and we held a "hide the bone ceremony".
Next time the dog comes he will make straight for the spot and discover that I kept the bone safe.
This is about you being confident and calm and winning trust. You CAN do this. It's a mutual understanding thing.
You dog sounds no more difficult than mine has been. As a pup I'd have used thick gloves to do this and been rewarded with a bite most likely.
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So sorry you are having to make this decision, it must be heart breaking for you all :bigarmhug:
I do agree with lescef, please please think about using a specific spaniel rescue organisation like Spaniel Aid as they have experienced fosters who can work with Teddy on his guarding to give him the best chance of finding the most suitable forever home as he would be only rehomed with a family who the rescue feel can offer Teddy what he needs and if necessary a family without children.
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If you decide that that is what's best I am sure there will be a good home out there for him with people who don't have children or other pets. A new home might also help him 'reset' his behaviour, as dogs can get in a habit of relating and acting in certain ways according to environment, people and other pets and a new set-up will disturb these habitual responses and allow them to be more receptive to learning better behaviours - especially at the age he is now.
We seriously thought about speaking to the police dog handling unit when Ollie was a youngster to see if he would be suitable for them as he ticks all the boxes for a sniffer dog - huge appetite to be worked, absolutely ball obsessed and an incredible ability with scent work. We also thought the clear boundaries and structured activity would help him to be managed more successfully - don't know if yours is a worker or shows any similarities.
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You dog sounds no more difficult than mine has been. As a pup I'd have used thick gloves to do this and been rewarded with a bite most likely.
I was trying to resist commenting, but couldn't sorry :-\ I just don't think this is very helpful for someone who is clearly upset and struggling, each situation is different, and we don't know if Teddy is more or less 'difficult' than your dog as the environment and situation is going to be different. All we can do is share our stories and experiences and offer support to each other. Wearing gloves and accepting being bitten is just nonsense and not a constructive way to resolve the situation at all. I don't want to go off topic and get into an argument, but do feel its more important we offer support while the OP comes to a decision about what they do next.
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Although it is a dreadfully difficult decision to make you have to think very carefully of the safety of your children. I had to rehome a dog once when our children were small and I was worried that they would get bitten. I'm sure it was the right decision and I'm equally sure that the dog had a wonderful life in his new home where there were no children .
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You dog sounds no more difficult than mine has been. As a pup I'd have used thick gloves to do this and been rewarded with a bite most likely.
I was trying to resist commenting, but couldn't sorry :-\ I just don't think this is very helpful for someone who is clearly upset and struggling, each situation is different, and we don't know if Teddy is more or less 'difficult' than your dog as the environment and situation is going to be different. All we can do is share our stories and experiences and offer support to each other. Wearing gloves and accepting being bitten is just nonsense and not a constructive way to resolve the situation at all. I don't want to go off topic and get into an argument, but do feel its more important we offer support while the OP comes to a decision about what they do next.
Yes. I don't usually get involved in personal opinions but I do feel the situation is causing much anxiety to the OP especially with children involved making life very unpredictable. Each case is very different. X
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You dog sounds no more difficult than mine has been. As a pup I'd have used thick gloves to do this and been rewarded with a bite most likely.
I was trying to resist commenting, but couldn't sorry :-\ I just don't think this is very helpful for someone who is clearly upset and struggling, each situation is different, and we don't know if Teddy is more or less 'difficult' than your dog as the environment and situation is going to be different. All we can do is share our stories and experiences and offer support to each other. Wearing gloves and accepting being bitten is just nonsense and not a constructive way to resolve the situation at all. I don't want to go off topic and get into an argument, but do feel its more important we offer support while the OP comes to a decision about what they do next.
Yes. I don't usually get involved in personal opinions but I do feel the situation is causing much anxiety to the OP especially with children involved making life very unpredictable. Each case is very different. X
Would agree with all the supportive comments made on the post, I also feel it is not 'Giving Up' when you come to the decision that you have done all you can and you are doing what you feel is best in your particular circumstances.
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I too want to add my support for the difficult decision you know you have to make. Teddy sounds like a lovable little chap and will be more than happy I would think in an adult only home. Noone can live their lives in constant anxiety and worry wondering what may or could happen next. It's one thing having children visiting and putting the dog safely away but with small kids in the house and their friends visiting it would be constant worry. Thinking on you and be kind to yourself as you're doing the right thing for Teddy and your family ...
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I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. Again, please can I reiterate the use of a breed specific rescue, it is very important as you know yourself these are quite unique wee dogs. If it helps to put your mind at ease we have a rescue cocker, who came with lots of issues, and needed to be an only dog in a quiet home. We have made adjustments to how we work on a daily basis to accommodate her needs. So please, take heart that there are people who will help you with right choice for Teddy, whether that is with you, or in a new home. You obviously care deeply for this wee one and it is a horrible situation to be in.
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I too want to add my support for the difficult decision you know you have to make. Teddy sounds like a lovable little chap and will be more than happy I would think in an adult only home. Noone can live their lives in constant anxiety and worry wondering what may or could happen next. It's one thing having children visiting and putting the dog safely away but with small kids in the house and their friends visiting it would be constant worry. Thinking on you and be kind to yourself as you're doing the right thing for Teddy and your family ...
Those are my sentiments too and I can think of nothing else constructive to say that hasn't been said already. Teddy sounds a lovely little boy and he's still young enough to adjust to a new family and develop his good sides without his guarding issues standing in the way. It is hard and I feel desperately sorry for you but at the end of the day your children have to take priority, You've done everything you could but sometimes there are things you just can't control and its better to give him the chance of a good life now than have to be faced with an even harder decision later if something happens. Be kind to yourself and above all, please don't reproach yourself, your decision is being made with everyone's best interest at heart. Sending you hugs and thinking of you. Take care x
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All I did was tell you what I did and how it turned out.
I knew someone would moan.
But owners are different too.
I quite easily overcame this problem and have a dog that shares his favourite ball with a small child. They just pat it back and forward.
What's ridiculous about wearing gloves to handle a dog that's being difficult and you need to take something away?
Watch one of the videos on here, "Archie Finds a Ball", see me working my dog. Then tell me I'm ridiculous.
If you cannot see the bond of understanding I built, then I don't know what you expect from a pet dog.
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While resource gaurding is actually a normal behaviour in a pup/dog it isn't appropriate in the domestic environment.
Often you find at your pup's age is when they do push boundaries and I had similar issues with Ruby at this age. She would growl at me if I tried to get her off the sofa or anywere she was settled - after a chat with a dog trainer I began training specificially with this and doing practise sessions, mostly luring off the sofa with a treat using commands like off then only rewarding when her feet were all on the ground. After many attempts at this it worked.
Often its about teaching a dog before there is a problem rather than reacting to situations when they happen and to avoid confrontation at all costs (as that can escalate a problem that could easily be solved or managed - something I've seen in dogs that have come into the rescue). There are times when you have to ask is it worth getting back the item a dog has and in others if a dog is unhappy being around people when he is eating then let him have the space he needs. If something is of value to you (or a danger to the dog) then you need to go about teaching the pup to give the item up.
I appreciate many on here have different experiences of dog ownership but we need to ensure that the advice given should be about positive training/reinforcement and remembering that while this forum is very useful we can't always see how the dog is in their home environment and so it may be best particularly when owners are struggling or if the owner feel their dog has problems with aggression they should be seeking good professional advice with someone who can see the dog for themselves
I can only add if you do decide to rehome as others suggest try to find a good rescue - either a breed one that is willing to work with your pup or even a good general dog rescue would suit as well
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All I did was tell you what I did and how it turned out.
I knew someone would moan.
But owners are different too.
I quite easily overcame this problem and have a dog that shares his favourite ball with a small child. They just pat it back and forward.
What's ridiculous about wearing gloves to handle a dog that's being difficult and you need to take something away?
Watch one of the videos on here, "Archie Finds a Ball", see me working my dog. Then tell me I'm ridiculous.
If you cannot see the bond of understanding I built, then I don't know what you expect from a pet dog.
People are not moaning - they are just disagreeing with your approach. What worked for you may not work for anyone else as all dogs and all owners are different - wearing gloves to remove a guarded item and expecting to be bitten is quite confrontational and you will not find ANY modern trainers/behaviourists advising owners to do this. Yes you can post about what worked for you but you need to bear in mind that there will be many who do not share your views and they have a perfect right to say so too.
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Some great advice for you here. I totally agree that there is no such thing as giving up. You want to do what is best for your family and for your dog and it may well be that, in this case, that means letting your pup find a new home with a different dynamic. That is actually a very brave and difficult decision. I often wandered what would have become of Archie if he had been in a home with kids and other pets. I had many, many days where I considered re-homing him.
One thing I would say is that if you do decide to go down that route then be assured that a good rescue will assess him and find him a home that has experience with this issue and can give him the best chance. It is entirely possible that if you persevere things may improve. BUT - equally possible is that a mishap may occur and he may bite. This happened to me when I failed to respond to the warning signs Archie gave me. Entirely my fault. However, once a dog has bitten, my understanding is that it can be very difficult to find a rescue willing to give a second chance. Just something to bear in mind.
Whatever you decide will be the right decision for you and your family.
:bigarmhug:
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Goodbye girlies I just don't fit in here.
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I'm no 'girly' in age or attitude. Most people expect to have a well balanced pup for a home with extended family and other pets. I've had a lot of dogs , before and after Bobby. NONE Were like him. I was aware that this tendency occurred , and was aghast when my puppy announced himself as a resource guarder. Our children had moved on, so I joined Col, otherwise I would have cracked up. As you have wondered, he did dominate our lives, and it was a difficult period to beg other family members to adopt the proper methods with him. To be brutally honest, if I had young children to care for, I might have returned him to his breeder or to rehoming. He had no problems with other dogs. Just guarding anything left on the floor etc, hand shyness, possessiveness of the car if he was put in first, and so on. Being a lion tamer would have escalated the situation, with devastating consequences for the dog.
I was broken-hearted with him many a time, and I know how you feel. 99% of the time they are perfect. If he's going to break up your happy home, be strong, and speak to the organisations already mentioned. There may be people like me who understand him and know how to cope. As mentioned, our member TopBarks, has much experience as a cocker owner and trainer, to share and advise.
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Hi guys,
I just wanted to feed back to you the completely wonderful(and mostly unexpected!!) news that teddy is still with us and mostly doing brilliantly. This dog has taken my soul, all my energy and every ounce of patience, experience and knowledge I have, along with large chunks of money with behaviourists and vets. He still resource guards, but we have worked so hard as a family and have management techniques for every scenario we have faced so far. He is a delight in so many ways and we adore him, which is one of the reasons he is still here. He is now ten months, and matures every week, such a sociable, happy, joyous ball of craziness. There are periods when I have doubts we can make it work, when he has hormonal surges and his unpredictability surges, but mostly he is a dude and a thug whom we adore. I've never owned such a challenging dog, but the rewards are also great. We have adapted our home and lives to adjust to teddy-we live with stair gates on every room so we can control where he has access to, but these are small things. He and our older dog play for hours, live mostly happily side by side (except the moments teddy guards food, space or me), and he is an absolutely pleasure with animals, dogs, children, in fact anything we meet out walking. His recall is practically perfect, he is a delight in almost all the ways. I'm very aware that with different handling, both of him and the whole situation, teddy could have become a very different dog with a very different future. I'm blessed to have had the support of people who, like me, believe gentle us always the way, and I'm so happy to be able to update you all that he is here for good, unless he does something REALLY bad!!!!! I love this dog, in a very visceral and robust way, and our relationship is so different from any I've had with an animal before, but he fits, we love him and I'm so grateful for all the supportive comments I had here in what was genuinely one of the darkest times in my life. Thank you, everyone 💗
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What wonderful news! You have clearly worked very hard, with much love in your heart for this little boy. I coulnd’t be more delighted to hear you have found a way to make Teddy part of your family in the best way possible.
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That is wonderful news and shows what can be achieved with time and patience. Well done to you all. ;)
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That's great news, thanks for the lovely positive update :luv:
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That's great to hear, especially perhaps for other people grappling with similar issues with their young dogs. Teddy sounds a very solid dog in lots of other ways and I would imagine things will continue to be on the up for you now as he progresses through maturity and learns to regulate his behaviour further.
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What a wonderful, heartwarming update, so pleased for you and many thanks for posting, I'm sure it will be very much appreciated by any others in a similar situation. I really take my hat off to you for not giving up on this little lad, it must have taken not only determination and hard work but also a lot of courage, you took on the challenge and its paid off!! He's a lucky boy to have you and I'm sure he'll mature into a lovely family pet for whom you'll always have a special place in your heart.
All the best for all of you! Keep us updated! :banana:
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Well done all of you, this has obviously taken a lot of time and effort, and I am pleased that you are now reaping the rewards.
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Great update great news, I remember this OP because I decided not to chip in as my advise would have been you cant risk it with children and I honestly thought you had enough on your plate without me adding to your worries.
You are what I would call a real dog person and I really congratulate you and your families achievement's with Teddy.