CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: bmthmark on June 01, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
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A friend of mine has one of these collars because her dog keeps eating dog poo and keeps on getting worms. She now uses this collar device to stop the dog from eating it.
I can see that she is trying to help her dog as having worms is not good. But personally (my own opinion) I think its cruel and bypassing the underlying issue. I have had many issues with my dog eating things (probably remember my random posts :lol2:) he shouldn't - he still does have issues but he is getting better, but I believe trying to teach him without the use of devices is the better way. I know I won't stop him overnight and it will take many months of me pulling him away from things. But I am confident I will get there (eventually) and hopefully he will be a happy dog at the end of it.
What do other people think about these collars? I think my neighbour uses one to stop barking as well. My wife said can we put one on the neighbour to shut her up as well :005:
My friend says her vet recommended it, I’m not qualified at all and I have only ever had one dog so I couldn't really argue the case with my friend.
Just interested in what other people think.
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Are we talking of e collar or the ones that give a high pitch sound.
What's the citronella bit, thought that was for scented candles 😁
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Are we talking of e collar or the ones that give a high pitch sound.
What's the citronella bit, thought that was for scented candles 😁
Haha I know what u mean regarding candles :lol2:
Not sure the exact name. But she says she has a button on a control. When pressed it makes a beep and the sprays the dog with some weird smell. Aparently the dog hates it and stops eating the poo :huh:
I've never heard of these devices before, surely it must frustrate the dog and could cause other issues.
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I have heard of them and they do squirt the essence. whether it is the smell or just being squirted that is suppose to stop them I am not sure. I have found a loud deep "Aaarrr" stops them or atleast gets their attention.
Squirt me in the eye with citronella and I would most likely bite you on the bum :fear2:
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Are we talking of e collar or the ones that give a high pitch sound.
What's the citronella bit, thought that was for scented candles 😁
Haha I know what u mean regarding candles :lol2:
Not sure the exact name. But she says she has a button on a control. When pressed it makes a beep and the sprays the dog with some weird smell. Aparently the dog hates it and stops eating the poo :huh:
I've never heard of these devices before, surely it must frustrate the dog and could cause other issues.
New one on me never heard of em. Cant say I fancy the idea, sounds like a cop out to me . Train the dog on the stop whistle and train a recall. Easier said than done I know but that's what you have to try and do imo
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I met someone who used it to stop his dog barking.
As someone with a VERY vocal Cocker, who is also noise sensitive (meant the dog), I still wouldn't consider it.
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I'm against any sort of aversives and these things sound awful to me - when you think that a dog sense of smell is (literally) thousands of times stronger than ours, can you just imagaine having that stuff sprayed at you?? Training a "leave" comand is a better way forward - (and a teaspoon of coconut oil over the dinner is a good way of helping keep the worms at bay!) ;)
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I've never heard of these things and my initial thoughts were that it's unfair on the dog.
I know the dog is getting poorly from the poo eating but surely there are other ways e.g keep the dog on a lead and say 'leave'.
I know it's hard as my pup loves eating stuff.
But we didn't get Cocker spaniels for an easy life.
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this way. I'm still puzzled why a vet would recommend this.
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My personal take is that citronella collars can be appropriate depending on the circumstances. I think people can get hung up on the word 'aversives' and not see that actually they probably use aversives themselves - any time you say 'no' to a dog with the aim of stopping it from doing something you are using an aversive. Some aversives are more effective than others of course.
Taking your neighbour's dog for eg. the citronella collar is aimed at getting it to stop a behaviour which could cause health problems. Yes, they could keep their dog on a lead at all times but I bet if you were to ask the dog if it would prefer to spend its entire life on lead or have time off lead and put up with a citronella spray every time it started to eat poo for a few days I would bet it would choose the latter option. They will have to be very precise and consistent using it and pair it with a vocal command that can be continued after they stop using the collar. It should show an effect very quickly, within a few days, and if it doesn't I would give up on it altogether as it wouldn't be functioning the way it is intended to.
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Have you ready the advice given by Top Barks in the bit at the top? He mentions citronella collars, it's really worth reading.
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My personal take is that citronella collars can be appropriate depending on the circumstances. I think people can get hung up on the word 'aversives' and not see that actually they probably use aversives themselves - any time you say 'no' to a dog with the aim of stopping it from doing something you are using an aversive. Some aversives are more effective than others of course.
Taking your neighbour's dog for eg. the citronella collar is aimed at getting it to stop a behaviour which could cause health problems. Yes, they could keep their dog on a lead at all times but I bet if you were to ask the dog if it would prefer to spend its entire life on lead or have time off lead and put up with a citronella spray every time it started to eat poo for a few days I would bet it would choose the latter option. They will have to be very precise and consistent using it and pair it with a vocal command that can be continued after they stop using the collar. It should show an effect very quickly, within a few days, and if it doesn't I would give up on it altogether as it wouldn't be functioning the way it is intended to.
I think the term aversive is too wide. In its purest definition anything the dog dislikes is considered an aversive so a "no" is an aversive in that regard. I prefer to state that I am against "physical correction" as in anything that causes physical pain but I would include "stress and intimidation" knowingly dished out. Other than that I have no problem with a no or even a growl 😁
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My personal take is that citronella collars can be appropriate depending on the circumstances. I think people can get hung up on the word 'aversives' and not see that actually they probably use aversives themselves - any time you say 'no' to a dog with the aim of stopping it from doing something you are using an aversive. Some aversives are more effective than others of course.
Taking your neighbour's dog for eg. the citronella collar is aimed at getting it to stop a behaviour which could cause health problems. Yes, they could keep their dog on a lead at all times but I bet if you were to ask the dog if it would prefer to spend its entire life on lead or have time off lead and put up with a citronella spray every time it started to eat poo for a few days I would bet it would choose the latter option. They will have to be very precise and consistent using it and pair it with a vocal command that can be continued after they stop using the collar. It should show an effect very quickly, within a few days, and if it doesn't I would give up on it altogether as it wouldn't be functioning the way it is intended to.
I think the term aversive is too wide. In its purest definition anything the dog dislikes is considered an aversive so a "no" is an aversive in that regard. I prefer to state that I am against "physical correction" as in anything that causes physical pain but I would include "stress and intimidation" knowingly dished out. Other than that I have no problem with a no or even a growl 😁
Ok - I take back the word "aversives", although I don't personally consider a "No" or a correction falls into that category, ;) but you're absolutely right with "stress and intimidation ", I swear that if another sales assistant attempts to spray me as I inadvertently find myself in the perfume department while trying to steer my way out of Birmingham airport, I shall probably fletch my teeth and growl aswell!!! Citronella might be ok for keeping mosquitos at bay but I wouldn't force it on my dog.
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....
Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar. His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth. It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat. As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort. The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given. The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.
My view on this? The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly. To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?
Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly. Coral eats poo. She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller. At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.
I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option. Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry. A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance ;)
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When Ollie was young the man at dog training class said to use a spray bottle (like you would spray indoor plants) and fill with water, and when he barked excessively to spray him in face. Ollie didn't like it, but it didn't stop the barking....being a cocker he thought it a wonderful new game Mum was playing with him :005:
My thoughts are ...........
Out of personnel choice I wouldn't like citronella sprayed around me.....
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My personal take is that citronella collars can be appropriate depending on the circumstances. I think people can get hung up on the word 'aversives' and not see that actually they probably use aversives themselves - any time you say 'no' to a dog with the aim of stopping it from doing something you are using an aversive. Some aversives are more effective than others of course.
Taking your neighbour's dog for eg. the citronella collar is aimed at getting it to stop a behaviour which could cause health problems. Yes, they could keep their dog on a lead at all times but I bet if you were to ask the dog if it would prefer to spend its entire life on lead or have time off lead and put up with a citronella spray every time it started to eat poo for a few days I would bet it would choose the latter option. They will have to be very precise and consistent using it and pair it with a vocal command that can be continued after they stop using the collar. It should show an effect very quickly, within a few days, and if it doesn't I would give up on it altogether as it wouldn't be functioning the way it is intended to.
Cheers for your view, its interesting to read what everyone thinks.
To me its more of what its doing to the state of mind of the dog. For example if you use the spray every time the dog goes near poo and it gets scared as it might get sprayed, you cannot guarantee that you have full control of the dog. I totally agree that you can probably get a 'quick win' out of this but i'm not convinced that it won't have any undying issues after using it.
Its a difficult one...
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....
Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar. His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth. It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat. As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort. The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given. The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.
My view on this? The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly. To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?
Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly. Coral eats poo. She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller. At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.
I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option. Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry. A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance ;)
I think your post is spot on and interesting to read about the police officer. I'm surprised to read that raw lemon is rubbed in to the gums, but I suppose the police officer was fully trained and knows what he is doing, my friend on the other hand has no idea.
I totally agree that my friend is just plain lazy and I too have doubts whether the vet would of recommended this. She did say that the dog eats poo, they get rid of the worms, then eats poo again and gets worms again. I will have a speak to her when I see her next and mention maybe changing the food and try and convince her that the 'Leave' command could be used. Also what I have to do with my 8 month old cocker is simply scan the area ahead and try and avoid things.
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....
Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar. His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth. It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat. As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort. The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given. The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.
My view on this? The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly. To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?
Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly. Coral eats poo. She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller. At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.
I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option. Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry. A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance ;)
Don't like the sound of that technique one bit. My view is that many"aversive" methods are either carried out as a fast track fix due to time restraints or merely a symptom of a failure by the trainer. If you have a reliable stop and leave command then many if not most problems can be avoided.
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....
Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar. His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth. It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat. As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort. The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given. The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.
My view on this? The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly. To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?
Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly. Coral eats poo. She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller. At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.
I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option. Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry. A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance ;)
Don't like the sound of that technique one bit. My view is that many"aversive" methods are either carried out as a fast track fix due to time restraints or merely a symptom of a failure by the trainer. If you have a reliable stop and leave command then many if not most problems can be avoided.
I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing.
I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.
That situation was very specific and used as a last resort 'to stop chasing'. Something very different to treat training a simple leave. It may sound a bit violent and extreme - but dogs that chase and have developed a habit of doing so are a risk both to themselves as well as livestock and very often the public (traffic) as well. The other options are the e-collar, never being let off the lead or euthanasia. If given an option, I'd go with the lemon on gums/citronella collar method if it meant my dog could be 'cured' and have a decent life. But that is a totally different scenario to stopping a dog eating poo.
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing.
I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.
That situation was very specific and used as a last resort 'to stop chasing'. Something very different to treat training a simple leave. It may sound a bit violent and extreme - but dogs that chase and have developed a habit of doing so are a risk both to themselves as well as livestock and very often the public (traffic) as well. The other options are the e-collar, never being let off the lead or euthanasia. If given an option, I'd go with the lemon on gums/citronella collar method if it meant my dog could be 'cured' and have a decent life. But that is a totally different scenario to stopping a dog eating poo.
Despite my consistent efforts, Henry is still prone to chasing. I will never give up trying to train it out of him, but if I never do, and he has to stay on the lead, I'll chose that over pinning him down and rubbing his gums with lemon to 'cure' him. It's not ideal for a spaniel to spend so much time on lead, but I do my best to provide him with the stimulation he would give himself were he to have the freedom to roam. I hope he has a decent life, despite my failings as a handler.
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I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing.
I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.
That situation was very specific and used as a last resort 'to stop chasing'. Something very different to treat training a simple leave. It may sound a bit violent and extreme - but dogs that chase and have developed a habit of doing so are a risk both to themselves as well as livestock and very often the public (traffic) as well. The other options are the e-collar, never being let off the lead or euthanasia. If given an option, I'd go with the lemon on gums/citronella collar method if it meant my dog could be 'cured' and have a decent life. But that is a totally different scenario to stopping a dog eating poo.
Completely agree.
The article (it's a small book) was a good and interesting read. The writer also said that whatever you do to your dog, you should try on yourself first - and that very bitter lemon is awful, it makes you drool and gag. The concept is that the dog associates that memory with chasing and is less inclined to do so.....he also goes on to say that over time you need to wean the dog off the collar (doesn't say how) but has proven effective with dogs that have a very high chase instinct.
Coral chases, it's why I read the article. In her case, I think she's just very slow to grow up and mature. She was very steady last year proving herself in a pen but then started free hunting when out of range. I've spent the best part of 8 months with her back on a line and no opportunity to chase - she now tries to chase birds that are 30ft in the air and have the cheek to fly over her garden.....any tips on stopping chasing much appreciated please (not citronella or e-collars thank you)
Jayne
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I am no expert as you know but my concept with training not to do something is not training her not to do it but training her to do something else instead. The theory that myself and a very experienced friend of mine came to is that working dogs do not like being stopped doing stuff but are receptive to being trained to do something else using the thing you don't want as a cue.
Hope that makes sense.
I devise the break from flush in order to stop her chasing then I moulded the behaviour into a stop / sit to flush. So initially a bird taking flight is not a cue to stop doing what you want (as in chase) but a cue to carry on hunting (chasing) but in the opposite direction. I use a turn whistle a lot rather than a recall theory being that a recall in the dogs mind is a signal that its over where as a turn is a continuation of the hunt for example but were you want it.
If I was in your shoes with a dog that was still chasing birds even after eight months on a line I would try to use every opportunity of getting into birds and train the flush / flight as a cue to hunt the other way "break from flush"
It worked very well for me but as you know I just muddle along and can only go off my own limited experience.
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I am no expert as you know but my concept with training not to do something is not training her not to do it but training her to do something else instead. The theory that myself and a very experienced friend of mine came to is that working dogs do not like being stopped doing stuff but are receptive to being trained to do something else using the thing you don't want as a cue.
Hope that makes sense.
I devise the break from flush in order to stop her chasing then I moulded the behaviour into a stop / sit to flush. So initially a bird taking flight is not a cue to stop doing what you want (as in chase) but a cue to carry on hunting (chasing) but in the opposite direction. I use a turn whistle a lot rather than a recall theory being that a recall in the dogs mind is a signal that its over where as a turn is a continuation of the hunt for example but were you want it.
If I was in your shoes with a dog that was still chasing birds even after eight months on a line I would try to use every opportunity of getting into birds and train the flush / flight as a cue to hunt the other way "break from flush"
It worked very well for me but as you know I just muddle along and can only go off my own limited experience.
ips that makes perfect sense - except when you have a dog seriously hard-wired to hunt and bolt. Despite very very careful handling and training from the beginning. I had one of these. He'd hunt nice and close for about 15-20 seconds. Then without warning, would bolt. Screaming. And would continue to wind himself further into a frenzy oblivious to everything aside from running and hunting for birds. Tried calming him by concentrating on steadiness exercises, tried food, tried reprimanding him, tried long line, tried shorter hunting sessions, tried stopping hunting. Took him to 3 pro trainers. To no avail. Some dogs are wired that way and there's no undoing it by asking nicely. As someone said: 'all dogs are easy to train - until you get one that isn't!'
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I am no expert as you know but my concept with training not to do something is not training her not to do it but training her to do something else instead. The theory that myself and a very experienced friend of mine came to is that working dogs do not like being stopped doing stuff but are receptive to being trained to do something else using the thing you don't want as a cue.
Hope that makes sense.
I devise the break from flush in order to stop her chasing then I moulded the behaviour into a stop / sit to flush. So initially a bird taking flight is not a cue to stop doing what you want (as in chase) but a cue to carry on hunting (chasing) but in the opposite direction. I use a turn whistle a lot rather than a recall theory being that a recall in the dogs mind is a signal that its over where as a turn is a continuation of the hunt for example but were you want it.
If I was in your shoes with a dog that was still chasing birds even after eight months on a line I would try to use every opportunity of getting into birds and train the flush / flight as a cue to hunt the other way "break from flush"
It worked very well for me but as you know I just muddle along and can only go off my own limited experience.
ips that makes perfect sense - except when you have a dog seriously hard-wired to hunt and bolt. Despite very very careful handling and training from the beginning. I had one of these. He'd hunt nice and close for about 15-20 seconds. Then without warning, would bolt. Screaming. And would continue to wind himself further into a frenzy oblivious to everything aside from running and hunting for birds. Tried calming him by concentrating on steadiness exercises, tried food, tried reprimanding him, tried long line, tried shorter hunting sessions, tried stopping hunting. Took him to 3 pro trainers. To no avail. Some dogs are wired that way and there's no undoing it by asking nicely. As someone said: 'all dogs are easy to train - until you get one that isn't!'
That's a fair comment. As I say my experience is limited and I always state that fact.
Eze was very excitable when she was younger but she calmed down and seems to be very receptive to training, seems I have been very lucky with mine.
I wonder how much of the problem you encountered with this hard wired dog was / is down to breeding ??
Eze has 34 ftch in her five gen so one would expect her to be quite hot and yet even though in my eyes she is sometimes manic many tell me she isn't, for a cocker 😁
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I'm with ips on this, for Henry at least. The only way to just stop him chasing without giving him an alternative behaviour would be to make him associate it with something bad. But with consistency I can get him to see a bird on the ground and remember that's a cue to run back towards and then past me, where there will magically be a very tasty something or other on the ground for him to snuffle out. The minute he has eaten his reward and looks at me to see if more is forthcoming, I recall him. As soon as he gets to my feet, I throw a treat away from me. So we set up a yo-yo situation of him running back and forth, but always away from birds on the ground (or flying overhead, which Henry also takes exception to).
As soon as he actually gives chase he goes back on the lead and we do something else, because then his head is gone. And if I don't practice this at least once a day, he forgets it within a week. I don't think 'steady' will ever be a term I'll associate with my doofus of a dog.
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Things such as citronella collars and all the rest, up to and including collars that give an electric shock, are all based on (our) assumption that the dog will make the causal link between the act to be stopped and the 'bad thing' happening. There is no evidence that doggie brains work in this way. Hence, the citronella or whatever is just a random 'bolt from the blue'.
If I get fined for speeding then I would be able to link the pain in my wallet to putting my foot on the gas and try to avoid that in the future. If I had no understanding of the concept of speed limits then I would just see that for no particular reason strangers keep stealing money from me when I go out. After a while I would be reluctant to go out.
John Bradshaw's book 'In Defence of Dogs' sets the case out more eloquently than I can.
It is not always a matter of these being a 'lazy' approach, it is that we sometimes assume that our dogs think as we do. That is not always the case
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I'm with ips on this, for Henry at least. The only way to just stop him chasing without giving him an alternative behaviour would be to make him associate it with something bad. But with consistency I can get him to see a bird on the ground and remember that's a cue to run back towards and then past me, where there will magically be a very tasty something or other on the ground for him to snuffle out. The minute he has eaten his reward and looks at me to see if more is forthcoming, I recall him. As soon as he gets to my feet, I throw a treat away from me. So we set up a yo-yo situation of him running back and forth, but always away from birds on the ground (or flying overhead, which Henry also takes exception to).
As soon as he actually gives chase he goes back on the lead and we do something else, because then his head is gone. And if I don't practice this at least once a day, he forgets it within a week. I don't think 'steady' will ever be a term I'll associate with my doofus of a dog.
You have done brilliantly LG 👍
I suspect that the only reason its not more reliable than it currently is (although as say you have done great with it) is that unlike myself you have not been in a position to proof it amongst high volumes of birds. That is not to say that eze does not lose her hair from time to time which she does cos they are dogs not robots.
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Things such as citronella collars and all the rest, up to and including collars that give an electric shock, are all based on (our) assumption that the dog will make the causal link between the act to be stopped and the 'bad thing' happening. There is no evidence that doggie brains work in this way. Hence, the citronella or whatever is just a random 'bolt from the blue'.
If I get fined for speeding then I would be able to link the pain in my wallet to putting my foot on the gas and try to avoid that in the future. If I had no understanding of the concept of speed limits then I would just see that for no particular reason strangers keep stealing money from me when I go out. After a while I would be reluctant to go out.
John Bradshaw's book 'In Defence of Dogs' sets the case out more eloquently than I can.
It is not always a matter of these being a 'lazy' approach, it is that we sometimes assume that our dogs think as we do. That is not always the case
Interesting analogy, and I would add "timing" if you got the money taken off you a month after speeding unless someone was able to explain the reason you would not associate it with that moment in time.
As for aversive / physical correction working. It obviously does not, if it did then no dog would ever need to be scruffed more than once but they do and probably with increasing regularity and increasing force. In my limited experience behaviours which the dog offers due to capturing and shaping become very reliable.
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[quote author=ips link=topic=118760.msg1705714#msg1705714
That's a fair comment. As I say my experience is limited and I always state that fact.
Eze was very excitable when she was younger but she calmed down and seems to be very receptive to training, seems I have been very lucky with mine.
I wonder how much of the problem you encountered with this hard wired dog was / is down to breeding ??
Eze has 34 ftch in her five gen so one would expect her to be quite hot and yet even though in my eyes she is sometimes manic many tell me she isn't, for a cocker 😁
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I think you have been lucky with yours - as I have been with mine (first one).
As for the breeding being a contributory factor - yes, to a degree, very probably. Very red pedigree with 3 or4 cocker champ winners on both sides. Every trialling line aside from Argyll Warrior. The dam line was very strong which is often less common. However, the sire's owner kept a puppy as did the owner of the dam - and they've turned out trainable at least, with the brother having gained a trialling award last year. So it's a bit pot-luck as to whether you get the slightly faulty one or not. To add also - I have an 8 month puppy at the moment who has an all red pedigree from one well-known line rather than a mix of lines, by the sire of the champ winner for 2017. And he is totally sound. Very full on. fast and very hunty. But able to focus and willing to please. no extreme training methods required - despite his trialling pedigree.
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Presumably breeding only increases the chance of getting a good un there are no guarantee. As you say pot luck really.
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I'm with ips on this, for Henry at least. The only way to just stop him chasing without giving him an alternative behaviour would be to make him associate it with something bad. But with consistency I can get him to see a bird on the ground and remember that's a cue to run back towards and then past me, where there will magically be a very tasty something or other on the ground for him to snuffle out. The minute he has eaten his reward and looks at me to see if more is forthcoming, I recall him. As soon as he gets to my feet, I throw a treat away from me. So we set up a yo-yo situation of him running back and forth, but always away from birds on the ground (or flying overhead, which Henry also takes exception to).
As soon as he actually gives chase he goes back on the lead and we do something else, because then his head is gone. And if I don't practice this at least once a day, he forgets it within a week. I don't think 'steady' will ever be a term I'll associate with my doofus of a dog.
It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job.
I know how hard it is as I have gone back to basics with Jett after his running off incident. So far so good but he is so unpredictable. I'm hoping the incident scared him a little because when I found him he had a very worried look on his face and since then he has been very close to me on walks.
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Presumably breeding only increases the chance of getting a good un there are no guarantee. As you say pot luck really.
That's my take on it. A decent trialling pedigree at least proves that the stock used have been independently assessed for their working abilities. And attaining ftch status means that the dog is able to be trained to a very high standard = biddability. I'd not ever get a cocker with unknown 'pet' lines as then you have no idea what's behind the pups. and it's more likely that they've not been bred with trainability/ working capabilities in mind.
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I do think there is a time and place for them - yes ideally as a last resort and when they can be used appropriately and precisely.
For example, my dog used to find and savagely guard bread that he found in parks - from dogs, adults, toddlers - you name it. We could have dangled a roast chicken in front of him and I doubt he would have left what he was guarding until he had finished eating it all. On these occasions he was a lawsuit waiting to happen if a young child had happened to wander near him and I imagine it would be quite likely that an order be made to have him put down should the worst case scenario happen.
So we did do the management - the lead walking and vigilance. But living his entire life like that would be very hard for him and us all. Neither could we always be sure of redirecting him to a more positive behaviour - we could not be confident of always spotting trouble ahead and diverting him (he is fantastic at following instructions to hunt to distract him from potential trouble when we spot it, but we can't always spot bread before him). So we used an aversive method - taking out bread soaked in lemon and hot sauce and dropping it discretely when he wasn't looking. Then when he found it it tasted disgusting to him and we paired his bad experience with the warnings to 'leave it' and 'be careful'. Now I'm sure this wasn't pleasant for him, but it certainly worked - he listens to our instructions to leave food now and we are no longer so concerned when out on walks with him.
In serious situations you don't always have time for the long, slow, hopeful fix. You have to act proportionately to keep others and your dog safe.
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The thing about your fix, hoover, was that as far as your dog was concerned, no human was involved in inflicting the aversive on him. And it was a very controlled use of an aversive on exactly the behaviour you wanted to control. There was very little chance of the association being wrongly attached to something else. I can entirely understand you using that method in that situation.
What worries me about the lemon-on-the-gums methods was not just the aversive, but the fact that the dog had to be held down by two people while a third administered the lemon. What does that do to a dog's trust in people?
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The thing about your fix, hoover, was that as far as your dog was concerned, no human was involved in inflicting the aversive on him. And it was a very controlled use of an aversive on exactly the behaviour you wanted to control. There was very little chance of the association being wrongly attached to something else. I can entirely understand you using that method in that situation.
What worries me about the lemon-on-the-gums methods was not just the aversive, but the fact that the dog had to be held down by two people while a third administered the lemon. What does that do to a dog's trust in people?
I agree, I find that worrying but again, don't know the full circumstances. If the dog is on the equivalent of death row maybe you do take that step as a last drastic action before putting to sleep?
I wrote the below as you typed your response which ties in with what you're saying about controlled use of aversive:
and as a ps. to the above - I believe the reason that method worked so well was because it was precisely tied to the act we wanted to discourage - the aversive was what was previously the attraction.
I believe when aversives work less well it is because of imprecision (poor timing of aversive stimulus to behaviour happening), lack of internal consistency (an aversive stimulus that appears poorly connected to the action happening) and lack of consistency from the owner (failure to apply the aversive in every relevant scenario, or applying it at scenarios that are not strongly enough related to the one you want to discourage).
...
With the collars I think they can appear to some dogs as being unrelated to human influence - if enough time is left between placing the collar on and then the use of it in an aversive fashion. Like I say, I don't by any means advocate widespread or general use.
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[quote author=ips link=topic=118760.msg1705714#msg1705714
As for the breeding being a contributory factor - yes, to a degree, very probably. Very red pedigree with 3 or4 cocker champ winners on both sides. Every trialling line aside from Argyll Warrior. The dam line was very strong which is often less common. However, the sire's owner kept a puppy as did the owner of the dam - and they've turned out trainable at least, with the brother having gained a trialling award last year. So it's a bit pot-luck as to whether you get the slightly faulty one or not. To add also - I have an 8 month puppy at the moment who has an all red pedigree from one well-known line rather than a mix of lines, by the sire of the champ winner for 2017. And he is totally sound. Very full on. fast and very hunty. But able to focus and willing to please. no extreme training methods required - despite his trialling pedigree.
47 including 5 championship winners and Argyll Warrior.........yes, there is definitely something in the breeding but
This afternoon, on my way out, Coral darted out of the door. She's usually very good at waiting until she's released, after I've gone through first so I knew she was up to mischief. By the time I ccould get in a place to see her, she was at the hedge (30m) and in full flight - a robust CORAL LEAVE IT and I saw her falter, COME HERE and she turned 180' still at full pelt and headed back slowing down on the way, which is part of the game "lets see if Mum really means it" the command NOW had her picking up speed and she literally hit my shins as she stopped - :banana: :clapping: :happydance: :banana: what I omitted to add is that the hedge is full of song birds that had been flushed!
There is hope! Sorry to overtake this thread but I cannot tell you how happy I am! Not only that but she's just done a beautiful blind followed by a seen with her sat up at distance, all with pesky song bird distraction and a pheasant sounding off in the background :lol:
Emilyoliver - thank you for your PM will respond in a few minutes x
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[quote author=ips link=topic=118760.msg1705714#msg1705714
As for the breeding being a contributory factor - yes, to a degree, very probably. Very red pedigree with 3 or4 cocker champ winners on both sides. Every trialling line aside from Argyll Warrior. The dam line was very strong which is often less common. However, the sire's owner kept a puppy as did the owner of the dam - and they've turned out trainable at least, with the brother having gained a trialling award last year. So it's a bit pot-luck as to whether you get the slightly faulty one or not. To add also - I have an 8 month puppy at the moment who has an all red pedigree from one well-known line rather than a mix of lines, by the sire of the champ winner for 2017. And he is totally sound. Very full on. fast and very hunty. But able to focus and willing to please. no extreme training methods required - despite his trialling pedigree.
47 including 5 championship winners and Argyll Warrior.........yes, there is definitely something in the breeding but
This afternoon, on my way out, Coral darted out of the door. She's usually very good at waiting until she's released, after I've gone through first so I knew she was up to mischief. By the time I ccould get in a place to see her, she was at the hedge (30m) and in full flight - a robust CORAL LEAVE IT and I saw her falter, COME HERE and she turned 180' still at full pelt and headed back slowing down on the way, which is part of the game "lets see if Mum really means it" the command NOW had her picking up speed and she literally hit my shins as she stopped - :banana: :clapping: :happydance: :banana: what I omitted to add is that the hedge is full of song birds that had been flushed!
There is hope! Sorry to overtake this thread but I cannot tell you how happy I am! Not only that but she's just done a beautiful blind followed by a seen with her sat up at distance, all with pesky song bird distraction and a pheasant sounding off in the background :lol:
Emilyoliver - thank you for your PM will respond in a few minutes x
47 wow, you win. 😁
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it doesn't always teach them anything though just not to do something at that moment. When, eg, a dog wears an antibark collar with citronella in it the dog is aware when the device is empty and just barks
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Not a fan of them - they are an aversive, and therefore best avoided >:(
They also do not work - my neighbour used one once to stop her dog barking, and her dog would go and sit in the corner and bark non-stop until the thing rang out of citronella :005:
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Not a fan of them - they are an aversive, and therefore best avoided >:(
They also do not work - my neighbour used one once to stop her dog barking, and her dog would go and sit in the corner and bark non-stop until the thing rang out of citronella :005:
That is actually a genius dog :005:
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I will hang my head in shame, and own up to having used a citronella collar in the past.
I tried one of the sonic gadgets, but every time I pressed the button Grace would run around sniffing the floor and then start barking! It was clear that the sonic gadget encouraged barking in her case!
Grace barks and howls if left alone; I rarely leave her alone because of it - before her heart condition was diagnosed I would leave her for a couple of hours on a Friday afternoon while I went shopping. Other than that, I would have an evening out once or twice a year. So most weeks, she would only be alone for two maybe three hours. I would hasten to add that this routine was only established once she developed the problem - when she was a puppy I did leave her alone as part of her training, but something happened along the way and she developed an issue with being left.
I went out one evening, and didn't get home until gone 11pm which would only happen once or twice a year - but when I got back my neighbour had put a note through my door saying the barking and howling was unacceptable. To be honest I felt my neighbour was being unreasonable as I honestly only go out late once or twice a year - but we don't get on and they obviously jumped at the chance to complain. I worry about people poisoning dogs, so once I had this note I felt I had to do something for fear of them throwing poison into the garden if I didn't stop the barking.
I was advised to get a collar - and it worked - I hated it and Grace hated it - but I was told over and over by more than one person that I was being stupid (I actually felt like I was being bullied at the time for being so silly as they kept on at me that it didn't hurt her). So, I used the collar when I had to leave her alone - I had CCTV installed and instead of barking and howling she would cry and pace about :(
I can promise that I will never use that collar again - and I feel totally ashamed that I ever used it.
I now shop online so I don't need to go to the supermarket anymore. Any odd items I pick up at the local shop when Grace is with me. I'm also now looking to find a dog sitter for those times when I have to meet a new client at their premises (I'm self employed and work from home) - I have an appointment for 20th July which will be cancelled as I have not yet found cover. I have no idea how to solve the problem other than to ensure that Grace is never left alone again.
We are going on holiday in September to Cornwall and I had booked one evening where Grace could not come 'An evening with Rick Stein' - I was going to cancel but the staff at the restaurant put me in touch with one of their dog sitters - so no need to cancel and Grace will be well taken care of for that evening. The lady said that she would be happy to take care of Grace for another evening as we are there for three weeks so we do have that option. Thankfully, that part of Cornwall is ultra dog friendly so Grace is welcome wherever we go 99.9% of the time and this will be her third holiday there.
I'm sorry for the long post, but I really do regret ever using that collar on Grace.
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No need to hang your head in shame.
When we know better, we do better. You say you felt bullied into it, and you saw that it didn't solve anything, and you stopped using it.
It sounds like Grace is lucky to have an owner who can admit they made a mistake and take such commitment to make sure that she is given the company she needs.
:luv:
It is possible to train a solution to separation anxiety. Start with baby steps - give a treat and do some preparations for leaving, but don't actually go. Then do those preparations, then give the treat. Then do the preparations, give the treat, open the door and close it again. Then actually go out the door for a split second. Gradually build up, but occassionally go back to an earlier step so Grace doesn't feel like it's always getting worse. It could take months - but as you are so totally prepared to work your life around Grace's needs, you should have good success, as the process relies on not moving on to a higher step until the dog is totally happy with the step you are at.
It might just give you some flexibility in future if anything happens that means you do need to leave her.
But, all in all, you sound like an incredibly devoted owner! :luv:
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Thank you so much Karma - I will definitely try the training you suggest as I hadn't thought about an emergency situation where I have no choice but to leave her!
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Rick Stein used to have a white JR terrier called Chalky who used to go everywhere with him on his culinary trips. Maybe he had the same challenges.