CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Londongirl on June 27, 2017, 01:53:54 PM
-
Just come for a moan really.
After months on the long line and working very hard on making Henry believe that all the fun begins and ends with me, it has taken just a few weeks for it all to fall apart again. The trigger has been a lovely little bunch of dogs (and owners) who we meet every morning. The owners meet up and chat while their dogs play together, often for up to an hour. Sounds lovely, right?
With Henry finally off-lead, all was going well until he got tempted into this little group. They are a lot of fun, so as soon as he sees them in the distance, he just legs it over to them, whether I want him to go or not. And this week, he's started joining ANY group of dogs he likes the look of (of which there are many because of dog walkers) and generally ignoring me. I could walk off, get in the car and go home and he wouldn't be a bit bothered.
Everything I've been trying to reinforce with self-control and looking to me for direction when we are out and about has unraveled and I'm going to have to find somewhere else to walk while I go back to basics again with his training. I know what I have to do, I'm just SO fed up that we are back to in this situation yet again.
-
Sorry to hear it LG. It must be very difficult if your in an urban area with high density of dogs. I am lucky that eze has no interest in dogs as she is convinced she is human 😁
Wish I could offer some advice but I have nothing 😞
-
little s** :luv:
-
little s** :luv:
I have lovingly muttered that in his ear more than once recently!
-
Oh dear, I really feel for you it must be so difficult with so much temptation all around. I suppose what you really need, is to be able to build up the distractions gradually, its one thing getting impulse control when faced with one dog but another when its a whole crowd having a whale if a time. I know you don't fancy training classes but just wondered if you could try and find a few like minded doggy owners with whom you could do a bit of group training occasionally, so you can practice being more exciting than another dog in a controlled situation, if you follow me.
We're very very rarely in your situation so I don't really know how Humphrey would react but we practice it a lot at the dog club, making the dogs sit while people walk round them with their dogs etc and recalling them out of a group but of course the training ground isn't the same as real life.
Look at the positive side (there is always one somewhere! ;)) think of all the new places you can discover while in persuit of the doggy party free zone!!... :005:
-
Oh dear, I really feel for you it must be so difficult with so much temptation all around. I suppose what you really need, is to be able to build up the distractions gradually, its one thing getting impulse control when faced with one dog but another when its a whole crowd having a whale if a time. I know you don't fancy training classes but just wondered if you could try and find a few like minded doggy owners with whom you could do a bit of group training occasionally, so you can practice being more exciting than another dog in a controlled situation, if you follow me.
We're very very rarely in your situation so I don't really know how Humphrey would react but we practice it a lot at the dog club, making the dogs sit while people walk round them with their dogs etc and recalling them out of a group but of course the training ground isn't the same as real life.
Look at the positive side (there is always one somewhere! ;)) think of all the new places you can discover while in persuit of the doggy party free zone!!... :005:
Funnily enough, you've reminded me that I told OH we should look at getting some help if we hadn't cracked this by the summer, and here we are!
Just looking at local classes now - perhaps working towards the Kennel Club awards would get us motivated. My problem now is that they are all in the evening and Henry is spark out and fast asleep for the night by 7:30 every night! :005:
-
Sorry to hear your troubles. Unfortunately I have no advice as I too am struggling with my little monkey.
How old is Henry?
My Jett looks very similar to Henry
-
Henry is nearly two - old enough to know better! His pic here is from when he was about eight months old.
-
Henry is nearly two - old enough to know better! His pic here is from when he was about eight months old.
I have just updated my avatar, you can see how alike they look.
-
Gosh yes, very!
-
I'm not sure that KC awards would help you as they are really about general obedience and Henry sounds like he does know the basics. I did up to gold with mine but Maddie would still be off given the chance! Gun dog training perhaps?
It's the alternative behaviour thing again - but other dogs are soooo distracting!
I suppose he needs to 'check in' with you to get permission to go and play. I think I've read he does this with you when walking so you could try extending it to playing with others.
Sorry I'm childminding and trying to post at the same time - you've said about getting his attention! Perseverance I think!!
-
LG
With respect I think this is a simple case of a failure in heal. I walk eze at heal a lot and I insist she stays there until released. Of course it goes without saying that there is a total breakdown in recall.
Sorry to sound harsh but I think you need to find a way to get your recall close to bulletproof and for that you need to train with distraction
-
LG
With respect I think this is a simple case of a failure in heal. I walk eze at heal a lot and I insist she stays there until released. Of course it goes without saying that there is a total breakdown in recall.
Sorry to sound harsh but I think you need to find a way to get your recall close to bulletproof and for that you need to train with distraction
It's not harsh. It's what I've been trying to train for the past 18 months. And we nearly had it. I'd trained with distractions, believe me. But if he loses his head once, all the training falls out from between his wind flapping ears and we have to start over. Again.
I'm sure all dogs are trainable. Some are just harder to train than other.
-
"I'm sure all dogs are trainable. Some are just harder to train than other."
Totally agree. Maddie is very independent and like Henry, wouldn't care if I wasn't there, whereas Bramble is far more of a 'velcro 'dog!
-
LG
With respect I think this is a simple case of a failure in heal. I walk eze at heal a lot and I insist she stays there until released. Of course it goes without saying that there is a total breakdown in recall.
Sorry to sound harsh but I think you need to find a way to get your recall close to bulletproof and for that you need to train with distraction
It's not harsh. It's what I've been trying to train for the past 18 months. And we nearly had it. I'd trained with distractions, believe me. But if he loses his head once, all the training falls out from between his wind flapping ears and we have to start over. Again.
I'm sure all dogs are trainable. Some are just harder to train than other.
Sorry LG I should have elaborated. My point is that to train recall or whatever in a distracting environment you need to proof it in the context of that environment but I know you have already done that but it obviously isn't proofed. As you say some things for some dogs seems to be easy whereas some things for other dogs are not. My two years battling lead training for instance has been a nightmare.
I wish you luck 👍
-
ips - Indeed. It's the frustration of working very hard on proofing Henry's recall only to find a new situation arise that also requires proofing. The problem with Henry is that when one thing goes awry with his recall, it starts deteriorating in other situations as well. So I will remove him from this distraction for a few weeks while I reinforce the others that WERE proofed then work on proofing this distraction again.
-
I see the dilemma, not sure what to suggest to be honest.
He is taking the proverbial in effect, so its really a breakdown of general obedience and compliance. You can see how easy it is for people to get that frustrated enough to fall back on an aversive in order to show pooch the error of his / her way. Without that there has to be something of value or some "thing" to do that trumps the value or reward of the behaviour you do not want. In a working / countryside environment usually from my experience what trumps everything even a chase is the reward of being hunted that being the prime motivator for a working dog. In your situation it is probably very difficult to reward the dog with a high enough value to pull it away from the excitement of other dogs or whatever. Obviously you have tried to find something but it ain't happening so really your back to enforcing the command. As I say its a dilemma that's for sure.
-
I'm not sure that KC awards would help you as they are really about general obedience and Henry sounds like he does know the basics. I did up to gold with mine but Maddie would still be off given the chance! Gun dog training perhaps?
It's the alternative behaviour thing again - but other dogs are soooo distracting!
I suppose he needs to 'check in' with you to get permission to go and play. I think I've read he does this with you when walking so you could try extending it to playing with others.
Sorry I'm childminding and trying to post at the same time - you've said about getting his attention! Perseverance I think!!
I understand what you mean but the advantage of training with the other dogs in a class is that you can provide the set up you need, - i.e. the doggy distraction, otherwise you can only practise it if and when the opportunity arises. As Henry's basic obedience is pretty good he maybe just needs to be able to train it without the lead, with distraction but in a safe environment where he can't just bog off. I didn't have much success with any of the 3 schools we went to, we both found it very stressful but I've now joined a club instead, we play games while simultaneously training the dogs to concentrate and stay focussed and I feel we're making more headway this way. We've decided to give the (German) obedience award a go next year, I'm not really worried whether we get it or not but we have nothing to lose and I'm hoping it'll motivate me, its just nice to have a bit of moral support sometimes, it can be very frustrating when you're battling alone! 😉
-
I'm not sure that KC awards would help you as they are really about general obedience and Henry sounds like he does know the basics. I did up to gold with mine but Maddie would still be off given the chance! Gun dog training perhaps?
It's the alternative behaviour thing again - but other dogs are soooo distracting!
I suppose he needs to 'check in' with you to get permission to go and play. I think I've read he does this with you when walking so you could try extending it to playing with others.
Sorry I'm childminding and trying to post at the same time - you've said about getting his attention! Perseverance I think!!
I understand what you mean but the advantage of training with the other dogs in a class is that you can provide the set up you need, - i.e. the doggy distraction, otherwise you can only practise it if and when the opportunity arises. As Henry's basic obedience is pretty good he maybe just needs to be able to train it without the lead, with distraction but in a safe environment where he can't just bog off. I didn't have much success with any of the 3 schools we went to, we both found it very stressful but I've now joined a club instead, we play games while simultaneously training the dogs to concentrate and stay focussed and I feel we're making more headway this way. We've decided to give the (German) obedience award a go next year, I'm not really worried whether we get it or not but we have nothing to lose and I'm hoping it'll motivate me, its just nice to have a bit of moral support sometimes, it can be very frustrating when you're battling alone! 😉
This is exactly my point earlier, you need to seek out the distraction and use it to your advantage, to set the scenario up but with a containment plan and a contingency. Maybe the group thing is the way to go !!!
-
I'm not sure that KC awards would help you as they are really about general obedience and Henry sounds like he does know the basics. I did up to gold with mine but Maddie would still be off given the chance! Gun dog training perhaps?
It's the alternative behaviour thing again - but other dogs are soooo distracting!
I suppose he needs to 'check in' with you to get permission to go and play. I think I've read he does this with you when walking so you could try extending it to playing with others.
Sorry I'm childminding and trying to post at the same time - you've said about getting his attention! Perseverance I think!!
I understand what you mean but the advantage of training with the other dogs in a class is that you can provide the set up you need, - i.e. the doggy distraction, otherwise you can only practise it if and when the opportunity arises. As Henry's basic obedience is pretty good he maybe just needs to be able to train it without the lead, with distraction but in a safe environment where he can't just bog off. I didn't have much success with any of the 3 schools we went to, we both found it very stressful but I've now joined a club instead, we play games while simultaneously training the dogs to concentrate and stay focussed and I feel we're making more headway this way. We've decided to give the (German) obedience award a go next year, I'm not really worried whether we get it or not but we have nothing to lose and I'm hoping it'll motivate me, its just nice to have a bit of moral support sometimes, it can be very frustrating when you're battling alone! 😉
This is exactly my point earlier, you need to seek out the distraction and use it to your advantage, to set the scenario up but with a containment plan and a contingency. Maybe the group thing is the way to go !!!
Exactly this. In our current situation, it's very hard to prevent the bogging off and each instance makes his behaviour more entrenched. I need to proof in a more controlled situation before reintroducing him to this particular one.
-
Just a thought, it could be nonsense but bare with me.
Could all the long lead stuff have effected his behaviour ?
I say that because I have noticed that if eze is on a lead in a particularity high level of excitement situation (the beating line in my case) when you let her its luke having let someone out of jail, the first thing they do is leg it too the pub. But if you risk having her off the lead in the same situation and contain the excitement (by whatever method) then legging it to the pub holds less value.
As I say just a thought
-
We're no longer on the long lead, so not an issue. I've made sure that the lead (any lead) coming off is not a cue for legging it.
-
Hi LG you have my sympathies..... as you rightly predicted young Barnaby's near perfect recall a few months ago is out of the window at the moment.
But we live in a very rural area, so its slightly easier to deal with. Like IPS we rarely use the lead. When he does go off-piste I'm sticking to only giving him a single recall whistle, which if ignored, results in my going quiet, hiding or walking off in a random direction without a second look in his direction. This tactic is working quite well and he comes looking for me very quickly. But I don't think I'm brave enough to try this in an urban area though.
Another observation that may or may not be of use, is that it is very noticeable that if Barnaby is out with me/us on a walk in new territory he is MUCH more obedient. Kind of like he looks to us for guidance and security. Once the new route has been walked a few times he's back to the new antics. So maybe introducing the unexpected to your boy's walks may see an improvement in his behaviour too?
-
I feel your pain , although Colby is generally a good boy, some days he just seems to be in one of those moods and the longer we walk for the more hyper he gets , I have had to tailor my routes to avoid the problem areas , like the gym where he sneaks under the fence to chase the rabbits or the area of the local woods next to the road , the only thing I have found that works in those moments of disobedience is to tell him I've had enough and I'm off home See You Later!!, anybody watching must think I'm daft but it seems to work once I've turned my back and started walking away it's not long till he comes running ! , I know what it's like walking in more urban areas and the stress it causes when they don't do as they're told , it can make you dread taking them out , if only they could understand that we're only trying to keep them safe !! Hope you find a way forward
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I try and keep my dog away from other dogs as much as possible. He's much more obedient and calm when he's on his own. He just seems to get himself in trouble around other dogs and he totally ignores me if he's playing with other dogs. I'd work on walking him at heel on and off lead and teach him a release command. Teaching a dog how to walk nicely at heel on and off lead is very important. In fact teaching all the basic commands is very important I'd concentrate on that more than anything. Also I'd recommend getting a whistle. My dogs recall went out the window a few months into training. My dog now comes and does an emergency stop with the whistle.
-
LG - hang in there! Jack (show cocker) is now two and a half and I had many of the same issues as you. I used a long line for six months with some success after a couple of AWOLs, but lately (last couple of months) it's as if a light has gone on in his brain - and he's much more chilled and improved enormously without my doing anything (much). Off lead he very rarely strays more than twenty yards without checking in and recall is steadily improving without any formal 'training'. In fact, I confess to letting his training slip a little and gave up on treats ages ago (he's never been that motivated - even with roast chicken!). His attitude to other dogs is more laid back, too. I'm convinced it's age/maturity related.
On lead, I'm not a fan of strict heel walking and really don't see the point TBH. Unless by a busy road, loose lead is good enough for me/us and again have seen a genuine improvement in the last few months. Why? I've no idea, but am certainly not knocking it!
-
Barry H - that is music to my ears! Henry's two next month. Let's see...
-
I know heeling isn't important to some people I've seen lots of dog owners getting taken for a walk by their dog. It's important to me because he's much calmer and obedient walking to heel. I also have a mild disability I have back problems and getting pulled around by a cocker spaniel is no fun at all.
-
There's a difference, though, between both heeling and general loose-leash, and being dragged by your dog. Henry doesn't walk to heel, but he walks loose-leash. I think that's what Barry H was referring to as well.
-
My dog isn't perfect at it. He sometimes goes in front or walks behind my legs but it's far better than when I first got him it was very hard for me getting pulled all over the place. Plus I live in an urban area and there are lots of distractions like other dogs, cats busy roads etc. It's for peace of mind really. If I lived in the countryside it wouldn't be as important to me.
-
Rosie is a bit younger than Henry( I have been following your posts for quite a while) and is fine until distracted...by anything.....but about a month ago it was as if something triggered in Her brain and She is like a different dog, but We have also started agility classes and these have made a real differnce to Her behaviour.It might seem silly but She is more focused.She is having to learn lots of commands and it is almost as if She is actually listening even in the agility group.And I have learned a lot from the group.It is a different way of training in some ways but does seem to suit Rosie and I.
-
Rosie is a bit younger than Henry( I have been following your posts for quite a while) and is fine until distracted...by anything.....but about a month ago it was as if something triggered in Her brain and She is like a different dog, but We have also started agility classes and these have made a real differnce to Her behaviour.It might seem silly but She is more focused.She is having to learn lots of commands and it is almost as if She is actually listening even in the agility group.And I have learned a lot from the group.It is a different way of training in some ways but does seem to suit Rosie and I.
I think that's really interesting. I think a lot of it does have to do with building a relationship with your dog where value lies with you. If Rosie is really enjoying the agility classes with you, that's something of value added to your relationship.
-
Rosie is a bit younger than Henry( I have been following your posts for quite a while) and is fine until distracted...by anything.....but about a month ago it was as if something triggered in Her brain and She is like a different dog, but We have also started agility classes and these have made a real differnce to Her behaviour.It might seem silly but She is more focused.She is having to learn lots of commands and it is almost as if She is actually listening even in the agility group.And I have learned a lot from the group.It is a different way of training in some ways but does seem to suit Rosie and I.
I think that's really interesting. I think a lot of it does have to do with building a relationship with your dog where value likes with you. If Rosie is really enjoying the agility classes with you, that's something of value added to your relationship.
I think its bang on. Whatever "work" you do with them the dog feels like your a team and looks at you in a different way. Working dogs are exactly that, they want to work and anyone who facilitates that becomes an important and respected member of the team. My girl loves working for me even if its just training