CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: TheAdventuresofBarnaby on June 27, 2017, 09:24:01 PM
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Hi guys,
I was just reading about the tribulations that the teenage Jett is inflicting on his slaves. Rather than divert that thread I'm starting this one as I have a worry.
Barnaby is now coming up to 7 months old. In the last few months we've opened a business in our local town and he's been coming into work with use every day. This entails several walks each day on-lead. This afternoon as I walked him back to the car, I realised just how well he is doing. For the most part its loose lead, and if he starts to pull a small tug on the lead to remind him, a click of the tongue, or the command heel mostly corrects it. He's now getting to understand that crossing roads requires a sit and wait until given permission to cross.
Pretty good eh? So why am I worried? Well I'm anticipating that once he's gotten the lead work refined to the point at which we are proud of him, that he'll immediately rebel and turn into a 4x4 furry tow machine like his predecessor.
So, the question is, to those who've already gone through this: What are the warning signs, and what tricks work to outsmart a crafty cocker, and keep him broadly on the straight and narrow?
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Hi guys,
I was just reading about the tribulations that the teenage Jett is inflicting on his slaves. Rather than divert that thread I'm starting this one as I have a worry.
Barnaby is now coming up to 7 months old. In the last few months we've opened a business in our local town and he's been coming into work with use every day. This entails several walks each day on-lead. This afternoon as I walked him back to the car, I realised just how well he is doing. For the most part its loose lead, and if he starts to pull a small tug on the lead to remind him, a click of the tongue, or the command heel mostly corrects it. He's now getting to understand that crossing roads requires a sit and wait until given permission to cross.
Pretty good eh? So why am I worried? Well I'm anticipating that once he's gotten the lead work refined to the point at which we are proud of him, that he'll immediately rebel and turn into a 4x4 furry tow machine like his predecessor.
So, the question is, to those who've already gone through this: What are the warning signs, and what tricks work to outsmart a crafty cocker, and keep him broadly on the straight and narrow?
Don't give em an inch
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:D well done Barnaby!!!
Sounds like you're doing a pretty good job so far! I'd say its probably just a matter of diligence and never allowing him to get away with pulling at all. I get the impression you're a pretty relaxed sort of person though and that you're intune with Barnaby (?), that's probably the secret, so you're best strategy is probably just carrying on as normal!! ;)
Keep us posted!
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Is there trouble ahead do you think?
I do try to take a relaxed approach, but as you say IPS, I also try to be consistently pedantic in what's expected from him.
The sitting before crossing a road has been quite a battle of wills, and gotten a few laughs from the locals, but is being won out just by my refusing to let him cross until the sit, wait and release sequence has been completed. Cockers might be crafty and manipulative but their weak point is impatience I think.
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Is there trouble ahead do you think?
I do try to take a relaxed approach, but as you say IPS, I also try to be consistently pedantic in what's expected from him.
The sitting before crossing a road has been quite a battle of wills, and gotten a few laughs from the locals, but is being won out just by my refusing to let him cross until the sit, wait and release sequence has been completed. Cockers might be crafty and manipulative but their weak point is impatience I think.
I insisted on a sit before crossing the road from day one and we practise it everywhere and everytime. On roads which we cross regularly, Humphrey now sits automatically, although I think that could be just association of habit/place, whether he's grasped the idea of footpath vs. road, I'm not quite sure. I also insist on a stop/sit when cars and tractors go past and that he does now do automatically, often noticing an approaching vehicle before I do. I just regularly throw in stops and sits during walks anyway as a matter if course, it just keeps Humph' on his toes and, I like to think, a bit more focussed on where I am! I think that at the end of the day, the training just never stops, they seem to forget things very quickly and things that aren't practised on a daily basis seem to be conveniently forgotten!!
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Exactly same as bizzylizzie, I insist on a sit before crossing a road and insist in a sit I a car comes past, the lane we walk has no path she knows when a car comes to sit on the grass verge (she is usually off lead) and offers this behaviour sometimes before I am even aware of the car approaching.
Sounds like you have done a great job Barnaby 👍
All I can add is that it seems to me that loose lead like many trained behaviour's require constant and consistent maintenance. A bit like a car, once its running perfectly it requires maintenance from time to time in order to keep it that way, also wheels can fall off and will require putting back on 😉
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The automatic sit and wait when cars and tractors are passing is a very good idea. I hadn't considered this, but its a very good tactic indeed. We'll be starting on this from this evening.
A question though.... how does it work when you ar in town? Does he know the contextual difference between town and country, only sitting to the sound of approaching traffic when in the country???
Barnaby hadn't really much experience of pavements or what they are for until just a month or so ago. He's doing fine, I just want it to stay that way.
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Exactly same as bizzylizzie, I insist on a sit before crossing a road and insist in a sit I a car comes past, the lane we walk has no path she knows when a car comes to sit on the grass verge (she is usually off lead) and offers this behaviour sometimes before I am even aware of the car approaching.
Sounds like you have done a great job Barnaby 👍
All I can add is that it seems to me that loose lead like many trained behaviour's require constant and consistent maintenance. A bit like a car, once its running perfectly it requires maintenance from time to time in order to keep it that way, also wheels can fall off and will require putting back on 😉
Good morning Ian. I remember you writing that Eze had gotten into the habit of self releasing after a vehicle had passed. I failed to pick up on her having equally automatically sat upon its approach. As per last reply to Jayne, this is a very good tactic for keeping them safe and we'll be starting training on it right away.
Master B must have read what I wrote yesterday as today he pilled like a train all the way from the car to the office:-( Typical! Hopefully he'll be back to normal when we go out for his constitutional a little later this morning!
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Wow it sounds like you are doing great with young Barnaby (I wish Jett was as good as him). Strangely enough Jett use to be very well behaved and its only recently he started causing us chaos. He has always pulled, but over the last couple of weeks he has stepped up his pulling power (probably because he is naturally getting stronger). Unfortunately I didn't see any signs and looking back I still can't pinpoint when he changed. One of my regrets is giving up on the pulling, but I am now motivated to change this and will crack it.
I can't offer any advice as i'm currently struggling with my little monster >:D. But from reading your post I doubt you will have any issues - good luck
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The automatic sit and wait when cars and tractors are passing is a very good idea. I hadn't considered this, but its a very good tactic indeed. We'll be starting on this from this evening.
A question though.... how does it work when you ar in town? Does he know the contextual difference between town and country, only sitting to the sound of approaching traffic when in the country???
Barnaby hadn't really much experience of pavements or what they are for until just a month or so ago. He's doing fine, I just want it to stay that way.
To be quite honest its hard to say, we're very rarely in town and when we are he's on a lead anyway so he wouldn't stop of his own accord. I don't know if you encounter riders where you are but I was particularly relieved recently when Humphrey had stopped and sat as a young girl on a horse approached me from behind (Humphrey was up front) and I hadn't realized she was there. I always have a horror of a horse shying and its rider being thrown, so he got a BIG reward for that! ;). ;)
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Exactly same as bizzylizzie, I insist on a sit before crossing a road and insist in a sit I a car comes past, the lane we walk has no path she knows when a car comes to sit on the grass verge (she is usually off lead) and offers this behaviour sometimes before I am even aware of the car approaching.
Sounds like you have done a great job Barnaby 👍
All I can add is that it seems to me that loose lead like many trained behaviour's require constant and consistent maintenance. A bit like a car, once its running perfectly it requires maintenance from time to time in order to keep it that way, also wheels can fall off and will require putting back on 😉
Good morning Ian. I remember you writing that Eze had gotten into the habit of self releasing after a vehicle had passed. I failed to pick up on her having equally automatically sat upon its approach. As per last reply to Jayne, this is a very good tactic for keeping them safe and we'll be starting training on it right away.
Master B must have read what I wrote yesterday as today he pilled like a train all the way from the car to the office:-( Typical! Hopefully he'll be back to normal when we go out for his constitutional a little later this morning!
Morning jon
Yes your right, I think it was my fault. She has always been good at getting onto the verge when a vehicle came past, it wasn't really trained as such it was purely a learned behaviour. My failing was in moving off without any release command as soon as the vehicle passed. This became a release command in her mind but was easy to fix once I realised the errorof my ways I just blew a sit whistle or gave the "wait" command for a few seconds after vehicle had passed. She is a quick learner at most things. Strangely she seems to know that it only counts when were on a road off lead, on lead in town or walking on a main road she just carries on walking. 😁
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Wow it sounds like you are doing great with young Barnaby (I wish Jett was as good as him). Strangely enough Jett use to be very well behaved and its only recently he started causing us chaos. He has always pulled, but over the last couple of weeks he has stepped up his pulling power (probably because he is naturally getting stronger). Unfortunately I didn't see any signs and looking back I still can't pinpoint when he changed. One of my regrets is giving up on the pulling, but I am now motivated to change this and will crack it.
I can't offer any advice as i'm currently struggling with my little monster >:D. But from reading your post I doubt you will have any issues - good luck
Our old Cocker, Betty was a puller. Some fool told us that using a harness would stop the pulling. Ha ha, it just gave her better weight distribution across her chest rather than through the strangling collar. Result: Pulling was harder than ever. Once when left tied to a steel cycle rack outside a shop, she managed to drag the damned thing half way into the road! She was also a very cunning puller. her favourite game in winter was to wait until whoever was unfortunate enough to be waling her was on sheet ice, and the she'd randomly take off like a bullet. the game was more or less successful depending on how hard the handler fell!
Barnaby has inherited that same harness, but so far sensitive use of the loose lead is mostly keeping him in order.
Update on this morning's constitutional: He was perfectly behaved. And again this afternoon, my friend's daughter took him for a walk and again he was good.
But I will remain vigilant for any signs of wilful disobedience!
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To be quite honest its hard to say, we're very rarely in town and when we are he's on a lead anyway so he wouldn't stop of his own accord. I don't know if you encounter riders where you are but I was particularly relieved recently when Humphrey had stopped and sat as a young girl on a horse approached me from behind (Humphrey was up front) and I hadn't realized she was there. I always have a horror of a horse shying and its rider being thrown, so he got a BIG reward for that! ;). ;)
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No, I've never seen a horse on the lane where we live, nor any in the surrounding area. This is a great pity as this was historically a famous horse rearing area. The biggest things we encounter are cows. He originally found them irresistibly interesting until a whole herd of bullocks decided to chase him off their patch. He's now a lot more circumspect in their presence:-)
I think if he encountered a horse and rider he'd for sure stay silent ( he always does), but at current level of training he'd probably go for his usual exuberant greeting technique. That could be a problem.
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Morning jon
Yes your right, I think it was my fault. She has always been good at getting onto the verge when a vehicle came past, it wasn't really trained as such it was purely a learned behaviour. My failing was in moving off without any release command as soon as the vehicle passed. This became a release command in her mind but was easy to fix once I realised the errorof my ways I just blew a sit whistle or gave the "wait" command for a few seconds after vehicle had passed. She is a quick learner at most things. Strangely she seems to know that it only counts when were on a road off lead, on lead in town or walking on a main road she just carries on walking. 😁
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Easily done my friend. I think the issue is that a Cocker's cognition is considerably different from our own. They seem to have a special predictive intelligence, as shown by Eze who save you the trouble of giving her a release command, that you would otherwise have done as soon as the car had passed (Cocker thinks" of course, why would you not??")
I'm also coming to the realisation that Cockers are like Frenchmen: they understand that rules are needed, they understand and agree with the rules that are imposed, but they see their abeyance as obligatory to everyone else, but as a matter of individual interpretation for them personally, and the interpretation depends on mood in the case of the Frenchman, and on contextual setting for the Cocker.
With that in mind, the implication is that French Cockers must be quite a challenge to train!
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Morning jon
Yes your right, I think it was my fault. She has always been good at getting onto the verge when a vehicle came past, it wasn't really trained as such it was purely a learned behaviour. My failing was in moving off without any release command as soon as the vehicle passed. This became a release command in her mind but was easy to fix once I realised the errorof my ways I just blew a sit whistle or gave the "wait" command for a few seconds after vehicle had passed. She is a quick learner at most things. Strangely she seems to know that it only counts when were on a road off lead, on lead in town or walking on a main road she just carries on walking. 😁
Easily done my friend. I think the issue is that a Cocker's cognition is considerably different from our own. They seem to have a special predictive intelligence, as shown by Eze who save you the trouble of giving her a release command, that you would otherwise have done as soon as the car had passed (Cocker thinks" of course, why would you not??")
I'm also coming to the realisation that Cockers are like Frenchmen: they understand that rules are needed, they understand and agree with the rules that are imposed, but they see their abeyance as obligatory to everyone else, but as a matter of individual interpretation for them personally, and the interpretation depends on mood in the case of the Frenchman, and on contextual setting for the Cocker.
With that in mind, the implication is that French Cockers must be quite a challenge to train!
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:rofl1: :rofl1: as opposed to a German cocker who ofcourse would adhere precisly to the rules and make sure all the others did aswell!! :005:
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Morning jon
Yes your right, I think it was my fault. She has always been good at getting onto the verge when a vehicle came past, it wasn't really trained as such it was purely a learned behaviour. My failing was in moving off without any release command as soon as the vehicle passed. This became a release command in her mind but was easy to fix once I realised the errorof my ways I just blew a sit whistle or gave the "wait" command for a few seconds after vehicle had passed. She is a quick learner at most things. Strangely she seems to know that it only counts when were on a road off lead, on lead in town or walking on a main road she just carries on walking. 😁
Easily done my friend. I think the issue is that a Cocker's cognition is considerably different from our own. They seem to have a special predictive intelligence, as shown by Eze who save you the trouble of giving her a release command, that you would otherwise have done as soon as the car had passed (Cocker thinks" of course, why would you not??")
I'm also coming to the realisation that Cockers are like Frenchmen: they understand that rules are needed, they understand and agree with the rules that are imposed, but they see their abeyance as obligatory to everyone else, but as a matter of individual interpretation for them personally, and the interpretation depends on mood in the case of the Frenchman, and on contextual setting for the Cocker.
With that in mind, the implication is that French Cockers must be quite a challenge to train!
:rofl1: :rofl1: as opposed to a German cocker who ofcourse would adhere precisly to the rules and make sure all the others did aswell!! :005:
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Ha 😁
I like the analogy 👍
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:rofl1: :rofl1: as opposed to a German cocker who ofcourse would adhere precisly to the rules and make sure all the others did aswell!! :005:
Well, maybe an Austrian cocer would still be like that these days:-)
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Barnaby has had his say on the obedience on the lead issue too.
Yesterday evening after work the walk back to car was a well behaved non-pulling exhibition of the perfect teenager that he is.....that lulled me into a false sense of security.
So into the back of the car he hopped, and I clipped his harness onto the tether that anchor's in a seatbelt socket. Upon arrival home, as normal I clipped on his lead, put its loop over my wrist, unclipped the tether, and gave him his command to jump down from the car. Which he did, then promptly ran off, leaving me with the loop of lead around my wrist dangling to a soggy severed end. The little B had occupied himself during the journey, completely biting the lead in two!
Today we're on betty's old lead. This is a thick green synthetic rope affair that seems scaled to something the size of a Rottweiler. Bearing in mind that this lead was used for at least ten years on the old girl, lets see how long he takes to destroy it!
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Houdini the dog 😁
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Little monkey.
I have an short tether lead in the boot. I once lost concentration and unclipped the tether without attaching the lead in my hand. Like you, I gave to cue to jump out, and found myself with an empty lead and a dog loose in a busy car park. Thankfully Henry was just as surprised as me and came straight to my feet for me to put the lead on! Those few seconds when I was holding that lead with no dog attached were heart stoppers. I'm now training him to immediately sit and wait when he gets out of the car, whatever the circumstances, although he finds it VERY difficult when something exciting is in the offing.
Let's see if young Barnaby makes headway on the old lead too...
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...he seems to be getting quite a taste for restraints.
On the drive home yesterday evening he quietly turned his attention to the main tether that secures him to a seatbelt mounting. By the time we were home it was destroyed, nibbled neatly into three pieces. Being caught in the act, he was suitably ashamed of himself.
Lucky we have a spare in the other car. (tether not Cocker!)
The evening was was a departure from normal routine. I conducted it in complete silence and as far as possible without him realising I was watching him. Once out of the village I let him off lead and then completely ignored him. lots of random changes of direction and taking of normally ignored paths resulted in him staying within 15m of me 95% of the time. Every time he went further afield and was looking the other way, I dodged out of sight and hid till he got the message. On the few times I did use the recall whistle, he reacted immediately. On this occasion the teenager rebellion was quelled completely.
Right now he's sleeping angelically at my feet...... most probably dreaming up dastardly ways to get his own back on e this evening.....
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Ha
You need a crate for the car 👍
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Its heading that way for sure
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Just on the subject of pulling - when Grace went on her first proper holiday to Cornwall she literally wore her pads out from pulling so much and had to wear bandages, padding and baby socks for the rest of the holiday!
She had always pulled badly but this time around it was ridiculous! When we got back home I searched the internet - I had already tried one of those collars that go on the muzzle - she hated it and was clearly very unhappy with it on and I thought it looked terribly uncomfortable - so we put it in the bin where it belonged!
We now use a harness made by "Walk your dog with love" and from the first day of using it Grace walked perfectly! We went on holiday again and there simply was no way she could wear her pads out as it was impossible for her to dig her feet in and pull - she can pull ever so slightly when very excited, but 99% of the time I can walk Grace and hold onto the lead with one finger! There are a few harnesses that use the same front pull idea, but I have found Grace gets on best with the "Walk your dog with love" harness. The only thing I learnt was to take the harness off and put a collar on for off lead running as the straps could rub a bit too much when free running.
I guess I'm a bad owner for not persevering with training, but this harness just solved everything so easily!
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You hear good things about wydwl. Murphyslaw kindly donated a spare one for eze to try and there was no doubt she didn't pull on it BUT what I would lo like to know is does it eventually train them not to pull or is it merely a tool to stop it. I am not knocking the harness or yours or anyone else's training as god knows we struggled on a biblical scale and without a concerted last effort would have definitely resorted to using the wydwl.
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You hear good things about wydwl. Murphyslaw kindly donated a spare one for eze to try and there was no doubt she didn't pull on it BUT what I would lo like to know is does it eventually train them not to pull or is it merely a tool to stop it. I am not knocking the harness or yours or anyone else's training as god knows we struggled on a biblical scale and without a concerted last effort would have definitely resorted to using the wydwl.
My experience is that this harness certainly does not teach Grace not to pull, I don't think any harness would as I think they are just a means of preventing the behaviour - as soon as she has a normal harness on she pulls like a steam train! But for me the amazing thing about this harness is that our holiday last year was a dream - we had 16 days of walks and not one sore paw the whole time!!
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And just one other thought with this harness is that Grace has no problem wearing it, she is happy having it put on and happily walks to heel with it on - she hated the one that fits on the muzzle and after the second attempt at putting it on her she just refused to walk. Every dog I see wearing one of those when out seems to be pawing at it - and if I don't see them pawing at it, I've seen the straps digging in under the eye sockets :( :(
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You hear good things about wydwl. Murphyslaw kindly donated a spare one for eze to try and there was no doubt she didn't pull on it BUT what I would lo like to know is does it eventually train them not to pull or is it merely a tool to stop it. I am not knocking the harness or yours or anyone else's training as god knows we struggled on a biblical scale and without a concerted last effort would have definitely resorted to using the wydwl.
My experience is that this harness certainly does not teach Grace not to pull, I don't think any harness would as I think they are just a means of preventing the behaviour - as soon as she has a normal harness on she pulls like a steam train! But for me the amazing thing about this harness is that our holiday last year was a dream - we had 16 days of walks and not one sore paw the whole time!!
Yes that's how I see it but for a dedicated puller anything that works has to be used. Totally agree with you about the halti and similar muzzle type, I hate them and dogs never seem to be happy in them.
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So how are folk getting on with lead training ???
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I still rely on the front pull leash to make lead walks nice and relaxed - lazy on my part I know!
As for crossing the road, Grace gets very excited at every junction because I gave her a treat for sitting at every corner - she knows nothing about cars, but can see a corner a mile away and desperately wants to get there to get her treat - so she has zero road sense, but gets top marks for learning how to get treats.
Quite often she stops in her tracks on the pavement, looks at me and then looks at the corner on the opposite side of the road - so I think she thinks its a game of spotting the corners wherever they may be for a reward!
I put this down to her being far too clever haha
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So how are folk getting on with lead training ???
>:( >:( Humphrey loves to maintain a state of suspense! As in the old nursery rhyme "when he's good, he's very very good and when he's bad, he's horrid" I just wish for some consistency and a bit more concentration under distraction.
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So how are folk getting on with lead training ???
>:( >:( Humphrey loves to maintain a state of suspense! As in the old nursery rhyme "when he's good, he's very very good and when he's bad, he's horrid" I just wish for some consistency and a bit more concentration under distraction.
I had first lead walk this evening for well over a week. I had to reposition her (the pick up method) about four times in two miles. I accept it will always require maintenance especially if we have missed a week or so BUT the method is still working "for me" so I remain upbeat. On those occasions she was not pulling per seh merely got to the end of the lead which I consider only a blink away from a pull so I nip it in the bud.
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Barnaby is making good progress. loose lead now most of the time, but he still gores manic if he sees another dog nearby.
Walking to heel is doable when he wants to, and that's usually after he's in trouble for some other misdemeanour...
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Marley pulled like a tractor when I first got him. I just stopped walking if he pulled. Took a month or so he now doesn't pull. He must sit at the road everytime. Just be consistent do this every day. Be firm but fair.
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you should train the dog for its whole life.