CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: MIN on July 14, 2017, 10:25:09 AM
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Just read the post about the JR and the chap picking it up and reading that you should not do it
Gemma will go ballistic if a dog charges up to her and she is on her lead. She will leap, twist, scream. We can not let her off as she would be uncontrollable through fear We do not see any other option than to pick her up out the way.
We had a very big dog come flying up towards us, OH had the job to get Gemma up out of the way while I fought with the big dog to get it away from us while the owner toddled over to try and get it under control ( which took her a good 5 or 6 minutes) Gemma was doing her nut , it was taking OH all his strength to hang on to her.
Gemma is not at ease even if a dog approaches nicely but we can walk her away.
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I have also done this when a dog came bombing over to Maddie. She was still wriggling and growling but then I'd never done it before and it's not easy even with a smallish cocker!
I then read it's not an advisable thing to do, although I think if you've already trained it without another dog present it might be better. We try to avoid all other dogs but I carry a chew stick that I hold for her to chew on if a dog runs
over - mostly works!
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I did it once she she was a pup and two big dogs came bounding over. Wouldn't bother now as she can hold her own ground 😁
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The problem is that it makes your dog more "interesting" to the other dogs so they will jump and try and get to them and can make the issue worse.
Your comments Min are testament to that.
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TBH I think it depends entirely on the situation and although I agree with Helen in theory, if a big dog approaches a much smaller dog aggresively, I don't think there's always any other option, without putting the smaller dog at risk. There's always two ways at looking at it but I personally like to think my dog knows he can rely on me to back him up when necessary and if that means helping him out of a potentially nasty pickle by picking him up, then I would / I have done, the same as Min, although its obviously not adviseable to make a habit of it. I think its one of those things you probably don't even think about, its a reflex action.
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It depends on the goal you have really. If the goal is to train your dog to trust other dogs then picking her up will be a bad idea (unless there is actual danger of attack). It reinforces the suspicion the dog had that this is dangerous and she needs rescuing. But if the only goal is to avoid an uncomfortable situation, then pick her up. Nothing wrong with that choice, but just know that it will not teach your dog to handle the situation better next time and so the bad reaction will continue.
I have only picked my dog up a handful times. A few times because the dog charging us was actually aggressive (I once ended up at the doctors office with a bitewound and had to get proactive rabies treatment, better me than her I guess) and a few times because the other dog was hurting my dog unintentionally (big clumsy youngsters with poorly developed doggie language jumping on her end running her over).
My dog was terrified of other dogs when I got her. She would scream and pee if we saw a dog across the street. I had to teach her that other dogs were not a threat and I had to keep her at a comfortable distance while we were traning with positive reinforcement and desensitisation. However, sometimes meeting other dogs is unavoidable.
If a dog came up to us and I could not avoid it, I placed myself calmly between the dogs. I let my dog hide behind me without comforting her or making a fuss over it and tried to block the other dog by standing in the way. If the other dog would keep bothering her, I would crouch down and let her hide under me so the other dog could not reach her.
The goal was to show her that there was no need to panic and no need for me to rescue her. She would be perfectly safe on the ground. Sometimes I would pet the other dog and talk to it in a happy voice to show my dog that the situation was not actually dangerous.
I would train from a distance on the lead or have her loose and keep around the outskirts of parks so that she could approach the other dogs at her own pace. Eventually she loved all dogs. She is still not a fan of meeting dogs when on the lead, but she wil greet them calmly if she has to. And if they are rude she will let them know, but she is no longer scared :)
So long story short if you want the dog to learn how to be calm on the ground, do not pick the dog up as it will slow down any training you do. Give the dog a way to stay safe on the ground, stay calm, remove the dog from the situation if your dog is reactive, but it is better to lead her away than to scoop her up in your arms.
If you are not training and really do not have as a goal to make her calm in these situations (perfectly valid choice as greeting on lead is a bad idea anyway) then ignore what people say and pick up your dog if that works for you :D
I think especially in the situation described where the other dog is out of control and the owner is not really helping, then why should she have to handle a situation like that? I once let go of my dog (as I knew she would calm down if she had an escape route) and grabbed the strange dog to calm the situation down. These are the exceptions and the normal rules don't apply in my opinion.
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to add abit more. when the owner toddled up with out a care in the world she told us off for picking Gemma up and blamed us for the way her dog was acting. OH give her a telling off saying " you saw us putting ours on the lead surely that should tell you we do not want contact and you should have got yours under control".
It was mastiff size and build, and coming full pelt and she expected us to think it wouldn't hurt a fly.
Gemma would kill fly if she caught it . ph34r
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Some people are very strange and think that others should automatically know that their dog is nice (even if it behaves very rudely, and running up to a strange dog like that is rude in the dog world). I think most dogs would react badly if a dog three times their size came running like that. It's just common sense...I would probably yell and wave my arms if a cow ran towards me like that, even if it was a friendly cow. The size difference alone is enough that someone could accidentally get hurt, and in a split second it can be difficult to tell the intention before fight or flight takes over. (In fact I have shouted at a cow before bolting in panic, not my proudest moment, the farmer is probably still laughing. Who knew cows were playful? Not this city girl!) I think Gemmas reaction was perfectly reasonable, even if we humans tend to want dogs to always behave like the goldens in pedigree ads, friendly towards all at all times :P
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Murphy has been much better with other dogs recently, we've had no issues at all. But the other day I was on a field I tend to avoid because of the number out of control dogs there but the weather was bad and I thought I might be the only one stupid enough to be out.
The field was empty and the dogs enjoyed themselves but then out of nowhere a American bulldog appeared, no owner in sight, and started following us. Now I have seen this dog before and I know that it is friendly and just wants to say hello. But the fact that it was ownerless definitely spooked Murphy and he was showing all the signs of being unhappy with the situation. I picked him up and marched off as fast as my little legs could go and the dog wandered off. I normally would never pick him up because I know that this can cause problems but I knew that the dog wasn't aggressive.
It turned out that the owner was sitting in her car and watching fromm 200 yards away. Unbelievable. >:D
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If I see a big dog charging over to Grace with the owner being the opposite end of the park I pick Grace up - to me, the fact that the owner is the opposite end of the park and allowing the dog to charge up on other unknown dogs means there is no control and I certainly won't trust that.
I don't trust any dog off lead that approaches us, but that is probably due to past experience - my last Cocker was attacked by two German Shepherds and she suffered several large puncture wounds and was badly hurt.
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I think it's perfectly natural in the heat of the moment to get annoyed with someone doing something that make your dog behave worse when you are already trying to get them under control. So if someone picks up their dog and it makes mine jump up at them, in that instant I'll be cursing them under my breath from making things worse. But in reality there are no rules, just what is right for that dog in that situation. I have picked Henry up on a handful of occasions, mainly because he lies down and submits in difficult situations and it is impossible to get him to move. If I have thought he was in danger of getting hurt and he's lying on the ground belly up refusing to move, I have no choice but to get in there and sweep him out.
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on Monday Gemma was attacked by a boxer dog. We saw it approaching so put Gemma on her lead and stood to the side up a banking and waited for them to pass. The dog made a quick bee line for us despite its owner calling meekly. You know the feeling when you know something is not going to end well. Gemma started squealing as she does and the dog lunge at her and got its jaws around her back. OH managed to get her up and out of the way before it could clamp down. To say we were angry is an understatement , the man gave us a mumbled " is it alright" while he took 5 mins ( a lifetime it felt)to drag it away and get it on the lead.
We try our hardest to get her to accept nice dogs will want to sniff her but this sets us back. It is also the reason why we will continue to pick her up if we feel we have too. ( although I must say it is not often that we have to) She can just about handle a slow approach ( will still squeal after a sniff) but fast in-comings she panics)
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How awful . I hope you are all ok
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How awful . I hope you are all ok
:003:
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Poor Gemma, sending her :bigarmhug:
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A few weeks back a huge German Shepard was in the park off lead. He came charging up to Marley. The owner had lost control over her dog. He went for Marley but I stood between the two of them and I shouted very loudly atthe other dog risking a mauling. Marley stood his ground. I was furious. The owner eventually got to her dog and said oh he's only a puppy he likes to play. Sorry but he wasn't playing. Owners should have their dogs on a lead if they can't control their own dogs. I always put my dog on a lead if I see any dogs around its just common sense. Picking him up wouldn't have made any difference in that situation. I generally try and avoid popular dog walks because it just gets my dog too excited.
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I was reading an article that suggested carrying one of those automatic opening umbrellas , to use as a scary shield before the other dog gets to you. It didn't mention giving the other dog a whack, but shouting and waving the umbrella might be enough .
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I must say I am getting tired of owners with dogs who bound up to every single dog regardless of its intentions, only to be told "Its okay he/she only wants to say hello"!!!
I do at times have a stern word about "etiquette" and how do they know that my dog does not have health / joint issues and expect to be able to walk calmly. Much the same those same owners wouldnt want teenagers jumping on them from behind to be met with the "they only want to play" from there parents.
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Yeah it really annoys me. They don't know what my dog is like he could snap at them or anything. He goes crazy if another dog comes over and I have my dog on a lead I get pulled all over the place. And he stops listening to me. If I wanted my dog to play with other dogs then I wouldn't have him on the lead. It's got to the stage where if they say oh my dogs fine he just wants to play I will say well my dog isn't sorry. I do let him play with other dogs sometimes but most of the time it just gets my dog in trouble he either gets bitten or hurt In some way. He's much calmer and obedient if he doesn't socialise with other dogs.
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Yeah it really annoys me. They don't know what my dog is like he could snap at them or anything. He goes crazy if another dog comes over and I have my dog on a lead I get pulled all over the place. And he stops listening to me. If I wanted my dog to play with other dogs then I wouldn't have him on the lead. It's got to the stage where if they say oh my dogs fine he just wants to play I will say well my dog isn't sorry. I do let him play with other dogs sometimes but most of the time it just gets my dog in trouble he either gets bitten or hurt In some way. He's much calmer and obedient if he doesn't socialise with other dogs.
Ha, I had this at weekend big German shepherd came bounding over so I put eze's slip lead on. Owner says don't worry my dog wont bother her I say maybe not but mine will, she is not overly friendly with dogs that come into her space.
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I'd never let my dog go over to any dog he wants too. He could be attacked which has happened before. I once let him go play with an Irish terrier after the owner said he was friendly big mistake he bit Marley he now has a small scar under his eye. I don't understand these people who let their dogs go over to play with any dog that's around its totally irresponsible. Whenever I see another dog nearby Marley goes straight on lead no matter what. When the German Shepard came running over to Marley he may have wanted to play but it's still scary when a big dog like that comes running at you friendly or not.
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To pick-up or not is a difficult question, and the answer highly subjective.
Our new boy Barnaby when scared behaves like LG's Henry. Laying down and being submissive. If a large aggressive dog were to attack him in this situation, I feel he'd be badly hurt. So at the moment I'd pick him up.
Our Old girl Betty, became wise to the ways of aggressive dogs, and for her the tactic that worked was different. Always on spotting other dogs with their owners, we'd clip her on-lead. If dogs approached off-lead, and we had the slightest concerns over their intentions, we immediately unclipped her. The reason was that in serious attack situations she always proved more agile than her attackers and quite easily out manoeuvred them. Se was never aggressive, totally avoiding both conflict and biting from the aggressors.
We hope Barnaby will wise up before something bad happens to him.
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I've stopped talking my dog to the dog park it's just nothing but trouble. Irresponsible owners letting their dogs run wild. If I keep him on lead if a dog comes over I get pulled all over the place. If I let him off he either gets hurt or just totally ignores me. He's no bother when he's on his own. He doesn't need to greet every dog in the neighbourhood.
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Very interesting thread. I can honestly say it has never, ever occurred to me to pick up my dog in a confrontational situation. That may be because I am hard-wired to keep my hands out of any situation that could risk injury to them (they are my livelihood). I would put myself between attacking dog/s and my dog and use my legs and feet if necessary. That has certainly worked for me in the past. It may also be down to the fact that Archie is a baby hippo and I'm not actually sure I could lift him quickly if I tried!! :shades: