CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: C_phillips on July 26, 2017, 02:14:18 PM
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Hello everyone!
It's been a while since I posted on here.On the whole, everything is going really well with Jake (who is now 13 months old).
Training wise he is excellent - he knows a lot of commands + is a joy to walk on the field.
A few months ago I posted about some resource guarding behaviour (to do with his food + chews). I worked through the book 'Mine' and noticed some real improvements with this. We also have implemented a 'Leave it until I say so' policy and many other things + his behaviour with food is now much better and manageable.
Which leads me on to the new problem...
About a month ago we had some friends round and I put Jake to bed. One of them put his fingers through his crate bars and Jake bit him a drew blood. The same thing happened a few nights later, this time to me, when I reached for his water dish (again inside his crate where he was awake). Due to this, guests are now told not to touch Jake in his crate as he seems to be a bit anxious in there (or maybe possessive of his space?). Anway, this is quite manageable.
We went on holiday last week and left Jake with my parents. On one of the days, my Dad had been playing with Jake in the garden. Jake ran in and flopped down on a little dog bed mattress type thing. My dad bent down to tell him what a good boy he was and Jake bit him! Quite hard, and drew blood.
Now after extensive research, this type of problem (I think) can be put down to two sources
1) It's a dominance type thing, whereby Jake is guarding the things that he thinks are his
2) It's an anxiety thing, whereby his space is being invaded so he lashes out
Now I know that dominance theory seems to be much criticsed at the moment. I spoke to one of the top Cocker Spaniel trainers (Ben Randall) who told me the only way to correct this is to assert dominance. Tell him off if he snaps + he even advised shaking a bottle of pebbles at him whenever he does anything like this. This is the complete opposite to other theories however, whereby punishment is never to be used and instead positive training (getting him used to being touched in these places by myself and/or strangers) will get results.
I just wondered if anyone else had any similar experiences with their Spaniels and this touch related / location based snapping? Jake is 13 months and an adolescent, so if anyone has any stories, words of wisdom or reassurance that this will get better Id be much appreciated! My biggest worry is that it esculates, or that he bites a child. I don't want to see my little boy put down :(
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Hi my Marley gets a bit possessive over certain toys. I'm no expert but I've been told not to leave any toys out in the house also no chews etc. He can only have them when I let him but I must remove them don't leave them for him he has to know they belong to me not him. Try only letting him play with the toys outside. No playing inside. I've learned Marley the place command meaning when i say place he goes to his bed or his crate this seems to calm him down he's not jumping and running around the house like a maniac. As for biting he has never bit me just play nipping. Tell him no if he does it again be firm with him show that you are confident dogs can pick up if someone is confident or scared. Don't let him get away with anything. When he's in his crate leave him alone. Train him all basic obedience commands consistently every single day even if he knows them. Take him for long walks tire him out. These are just suggestions. Hope this helps a bit. If you are firm but fair with him and train him as best you can hopefully his problems will disappear and you shouldn't have to give him up.
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Um, eze is not possessive of anything. Toys and balls are available at all times. Neither has she ever shown any aggression (apart from towards other dogs on occasions) I don't buy into the dominance thing of everything belonging to the owner, its all a bit old school. No offence intended.
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As I say he's not agressive but he has growled at me a couple of times. It's not really a problem. He does guard some of his toys. Ive got a problem with retrieving I'll throw the ball for him but he won't give me the ball he runs away with it he wants me to chase him. I let him play with them and put them away later. If he does something wrong I will tell him no in a stern voice. I don't shout at him or abuse him.
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I only take them away because I don't want the problem to get any worse. He's not that interested in toys unfortunately just certain ones. I wish he would play fetch when out for walks but he's just not interested he just sniffs and chases birds.
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We had a short term issue with Bea a few years back, this was due to her being very unwell but hiding it.
It might be worth getting a Vet appointment to rule out an illness etc, I would also never punish a dog for growling, how else are they ment to tell us that they are unhappy and if a dog feels they cannot do this then they will go straight to a snap or bite which is so much worse.
The attached has helped me understand the little "tells" for a un happy dog.
https://se74d10370edbbfff.jimcontent.com/download/version/1363339642/module/5741399162/name/Ladder%20of%20Aggression%20and%20text.pdf
Have you thought of getting a behaviourist involved ?
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It sounds to me like it is just an extension of his guarding. He is guarding his bed - the crate at home and the soft bed at your Dad's house. It's not an uncommon thing to guard. Whether it's down to dominance or down to being anxious is impossible to say without seeing him. I would say only an experienced behaviourist would be able to tell. I wouldn't take any advice or act on it unless the behaviourist has actually seen the dog. If it is down to anxiety (as with my Archie) then any kind of confrontational technique or aversive training tool like rattles etc. could do more harm than good so I would not go down that route. I didn't have a problem with Archie guarding his bed (he didn't have a crate) so I can't offer practical advice I'm afraid, but my guess is that you are right to avoid touching him when he is there. It may be that as you continue to work on his other guarding issues, his trust levels in you will rise considerably and he will relax even when he is in his bed.
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It sounds to me like it is just an extension of his guarding. He is guarding his bed - the crate at home and the soft bed at your Dad's house. It's not an uncommon thing to guard. Whether it's down to dominance or down to being anxious is impossible to say without seeing him. I would say only an experienced behaviourist would be able to tell. I wouldn't take any advice or act on it unless the behaviourist has actually seen the dog. If it is down to anxiety (as with my Archie) then any kind of confrontational technique or aversive training tool like rattles etc. could do more harm than good so I would not go down that route. I didn't have a problem with Archie guarding his bed (he didn't have a crate) so I can't offer practical advice I'm afraid, but my guess is that you are right to avoid touching him when he is there. It may be that as you continue to work on his other guarding issues, his trust levels in you will rise considerably and he will relax even when he is in his bed.
Completely agree with this.
We have one cocker who has been known to "guard" her bed or a crate. She will hop into the boot of the car first and not let the others in after her - this is sometimes aimed at us as well.
She came to us from a friend last year age 6 so I guess this has been going on for sometime. OH has been bribing her with a bit of sausage every time she's asked to get into a crate or a bed.....it's working. She'll quite happily get in and as long as she has her own space will let the others into their respective crates in the car!
I would suggest bribery and reassurance. Get Jake to go to the mattress and gently throw a bit of sausage onto the bed while he is there, reassure him that he's a good boy and move away (turn your back on him if he grumbles) over time you should be able to get him to take the bit of sausage from your hand while he's on the mattress.....repeat for the crate but not until he is more relaxed on his bed.
Does he ever get woken up when he's sleeping in his crate or on the mattress? Just wondering if there's some sort of association that making him think he has to guard his special area?
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There's a good reason for the phrase - let sleeping dogs lie.
If a dog is in their safe spot, or resting, they should be left in peace. If they need to be moved, call them, but fingers/hands etc should not enter their sleeping space - especially if they have a tendency to guarding.
Dominance is a discreditted theory, and using any kind of aversive training could well make his anxiety worse.... while you may see a temporary reduction in the guarding behaviour, you won't be dealing with the emotional cause and, once over threshold, he may snap worse than before.
I really think you need to consult a positive behaviourist - one that will not suggest aversive training, but will observe Jake in his home and help work out what is causing his guarding.... look for someone who is registered with the apdt or pet professional guild. Steer clear of anyone spouting dominance or aversive methods. With the best will in the world, you will get lots of opinions on a thread like this, and some of them will be unhelpful to your situation.
I say this as the owner of a dog who had considerable guarding tendencies, who will always be prone to guarding, but is now perfectly happy to lie in her bed with a stolen bag of crisps while my 2 young children play nearby, because they know to leave her in peace, and she knows she is safe. She will bring me the stolen item to exchange for a treat if I need her to, but we often let her keep it until she gets bored as this reduces the value of her stolen item dramatically!
It would also be a good idea to get a vet check - eyesight problems can often contribute to guarding and "snappy" behaviour, as well as a range of other health issues.
With the best will in the world
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In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.
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Some excellent advice there rubybella. I have a minor issue with my young dog he growls at me if he has Certain toys and he also tries to bury items in the garden. he's never bit me only play biting. I've stopped giving him any toys in the house. I've also stopped playing with him in the house. I save playing for outside. When we are finished playing I will put the toys away. the only things I give him inside are dog chews which he he will eat so he can't guard them. He's now pretty relaxed in the house which is what I want.
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In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.
With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍
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In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.
With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍
This bed episode reminded so much of my first or maybe 2nd puppy many years ago (Barbara Woodhouse was training on the telly at the time) I went to a talk that the dog club I belonged to at the time was holding, we were asked if anyone had a new pup, when I put my hand up, the speaker said do you ever sit in the dog's bed to show who is boss? - I said no and he said you should, so when I got home I did just that, what did the dog so, jumped up on my bed and snuggled into the pillow - didn't teach him a lot except my bed was more comfortable than his, lol
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In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.
With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍
This bed episode reminded so much of my first or maybe 2nd puppy many years ago (Barbara Woodhouse was training on the telly at the time) I went to a talk that the dog club I belonged to at the time was holding, we were asked if anyone had a new pup, when I put my hand up, the speaker said do you ever sit in the dog's bed to show who is boss? - I said no and he said you should, so when I got home I did just that, what did the dog so, jumped up on my bed and snuggled into the pillow - didn't teach him a lot except my bed was more comfortable than his, lol
Oh oh - the infamous Mrs. Woodhouse, 😂😂- still have a book of her's somewhere...
Lots of good advice so far, so not a lot to add except that the "let sleeping dogs lie" advice didn't come from nowhere, I would never distrurb a sleeping dog and if Humphrey's lying in his bed or crate, I respect that its place, has nothing to do with dominance,its mutual respect that defines our relationship. Only one thing I would add is, some dogs get anxious if you bend down over them, especially if they're "cornered", - from their viewpoint someone leaning over them can seem very threatening;, I realize its not the sole cause of Jake's issue but is maybe a thing to watch for aswell. Best of luck!
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In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.
With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍
This bed episode reminded so much of my first or maybe 2nd puppy many years ago (Barbara Woodhouse was training on the telly at the time) I went to a talk that the dog club I belonged to at the time was holding, we were asked if anyone had a new pup, when I put my hand up, the speaker said do you ever sit in the dog's bed to show who is boss? - I said no and he said you should, so when I got home I did just that, what did the dog so, jumped up on my bed and snuggled into the pillow - didn't teach him a lot except my bed was more comfortable than his, lol
Ha 😁
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Sorry, but Barbara Woodhouse died when I was a teenager, so she has never had any influence over me!
For your information I never disturb my dogs when they are sleeping, but my dogs often lie in beds and are not asleep. My dogs are more than happy to have strokes and tummy rubs lying in their beds.
If you have multiple dogs in a household you have to create an environment where no dog 'owns' a particular bed, space or toy, otherwise you set yourself up for fights and aggression between dogs. When my 7 year old rescue came to me in foster she decided that the crate was hers, if my other dogs went near it she growled, so the crate was shut and only opened when I needed her to go in it, if I went out and at night. The guarding stopped. She also tried to guard tennis balls, so they were removed from the house and garden, and only used on walks for all the dogs to play with. She soon learnt that tennis balls weren't just hers. 9 months on, we have tennis balls all over the garden and house and she shows no guarding tendency at all.
Yes, I am in charge of my dogs, they aren't allowed to do just what they want to do. I work with a rescue, the dogs that come in with most issues, come from homes where they can do just what they like and are not given any boundaries or rules to follow. A friend had a young spaniel cross who guarded, if it chose to lay on the sofa they couldn't sit on the sofa because it would growl at them, so they left it to have the sofa to itself, what is that telling the dog ? He had to be rehomed due to his guarding behaviour getting worse.
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C-philips, I would go along with the anxiety idea. I joined the forum ten years ago, and I experienced very serious behaviour disorder, as did Karma and Archie Bean at the same time. My pup showed a problem from day one, no help from the breeder. He didn't guard specialtoys. Anything, just what he fancied at the moment, And if it's on the floor, it's mine. Removing things by order was impossible , I had to go out of the room and call him, he'd come happily , and then the item was rescued, or he didn't want it any more. Then there was personal space issues and the car saga.
Lots of dogs have problems from lack of training. Others have a mental problem, and most people don't experience it. It's terrifying, and if your dog has drawn blood, that's where you are. We changed our coping mechanism, and I kept him safe from stress. Now I have two dogs easy with people, I realise now the years of tension we had, nearing divorce. In retrospect, I have accepted that like some people, he needed a non sedating prescription drug to reduce his anxiety. There could have been a serotonin or dopamine type problem. His impulse control and stress levels needed help.
I don't want to frighten you , but as other people less aware of his problem at the moment are involved, consider this option. Also , leave them to relax undisturbed, and perhaps try not using the crate, but sleep time behind a baby gate.
I know how upset you must be, But remember that most Cockers are extremely sensitive and intelligent, and get confused , stressed etc. As you say , you have an adorable dog 99% of the time. And a vet check could be useful, with a blood panel test in case he's got a problem. They cant tell you.
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Would agree, stress plays it's fair share in behaviour probs, I am learning and recognising this with Branston atm. When I took him to the vets last week for a check up as I was worried about his behaviour with his other housemates and dogs outside he said nothing physically wrong but most likely behavioural, the vet explained that he meant he was probably under stress and confused and referred me to a behaviourist who I am now working with. She said due to Branston's age (he's nearly 3) and the new neighbours with dogs, Toby, now 18 months and growing up into an adult dog, things were getting confusing for Branston. Like most cockers Branston is a lovely cuddly biddable dog most of the time - but there is something that clicks and upsets him at other times and it is the signs to look for that I am now learning, and also calming methods for when things get fraught.
rubybella - when I mentioned Barbara Woodhouse, it was merely to put a time to the period about which I wrote the post.
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Totally agree with the anxiety and stress theory. I think most dogs hide it well until it just becomes too much then growling and nipping occur. Our behaviourist said this about Maddie and she has known her since a young pup.
There is also the subtle dynamics between dogs that we don't always see. I've never had two dogs before so I didn't see that there is a tension between them until pointed out by the behaviourist.
I have always thought it was Bramble that caused most of the problems we have - she's alert, barky, demanding etc but OH took Maddie to our caravan last week and left Bramble with me (usually I'm left with Maddie) I had a completely different dog, there was virtually no barking and she was just angelic! And thrown in to that mix is our anxieties that they pick up on.
I also think we try to humanise them and expect too much of them rather than just let them be dogs.
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Just to add to the points made by Lescef....
We worked alongside some very experienced trainers/behaviourists with Honey. She was (and is) a highly anxious dog. I am certain that her tendency to guarding was exacerbated by our friend doing as he had done with family dogs and removing her treat to return it to her (to ensure she was willing to give things up) - he only did this a couple of times as I asked him to stop, but just this couple of occassions was enough to make her worry about possessions.
She experienced some high-stress events at the same time as she hit her second fear period which really built her anxiety up until a guarding issue. She would guard us from other dogs, but would also guard stolen items from us. Her most high value item was tennis balls - and we did have to ensure she didn't have access to them in the house... not through needed to show her we controlled the resources, but because her stress levels were so high when balls were involved that she just couldn't switch off. It took many months of work on several fronts to get her to the point where she would trade a tennis ball (including training a reliable "give" with low value items). She rarely guarded food from us, but would guard stolen treats.
Guarding random things and spaces appeared when the children got to an age where they were a perceived threat. Both of our children were raised knowing to respect the dog's space and not to approach the dog if she was resting. That didn't mean Honey ruled the roost - if she was resting in an unsuitable place, we would move her by calling her away. If she stole toys, she would be encouraged to trade.... but the actual guarding behaviour decreased significantly as she learned to trust that the children weren't a threat to her. It took very careful management, and we learned a lot about the subtle signs of stress that show long before a growl (we can now tell whenever she has stolen anything, as her body language becomes much stiffer and she stares).
We've always been very lucky that she is very willing to growl - this meant we have always been alerted to the fact that she is a little uncomfortable long before she gets to a point where she may be snapping or lunging. She also has excellent bite inhibition, as evidenced by the point when one child tripped and fell on her - yes there was a lunge and growl (she also has a bad back, so was probably hurt by the experience as well as panicked), but she did not make any contact with our daughter. Knowing when she is becoming uncomfortable means we can deal with the source of the discomfort - either by encouraging children to give her more space (if she is in her bed or crate) or encouraging her to move to her bed or crate (if she isn't!).
I am 100% confident that, had we employed any dominance based or aversive training when she first exhibited guarding behaviour, we would have had a far worse problem, and it would probably have been impossible to keep her once children arrived. She will always be a highly strung dog - we will always be "managing" her.... but for the most part she is happy and content, because she trusts that we are no threat to her.
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I think what we can deduce from this, is that the humans need training too. Older people often think you either have a good dog or a bad dog. Your own children will be more understanding, but of course their friends won't.
It's good you are being honest and wanting to calm this behaviour down now. The grown up puppy has to to be able to settle down, likewise people allowing it the space and rest it needs.
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Yeah there might just too much going on and he needs his space. My dog is isn't keen on my Young nephew that's because he won't leave him alone and he's a bit rough with him at times. When my dog is chilled out and relaxing I don't talk to him, play or stroke him. This probably won't solve the problem but it might help a little.