CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: rubyduby on August 10, 2017, 08:41:30 AM
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Suggestions welcome, my two Spaniels drive me mad on walks, they trail miles behind and spend their walk with their heads down vole holes , they will kill and eat anything they find , baby voles, birds etc. I don't want to muzzle them but don't like the destruction and death of baby birds or critturs, .I think they got into this habit because my OH would sit on benches and let them roam rather than keep them walking and they developed a taste for ..vole! (or whatever) If muzzling is the only option can anyone suggest one that is kind and suitable, I don't want to to ruin their walks by keeping them on a lead.....!!!!!
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Mine are very ball orientated while out on walks would this maybe help distract them?
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Suggestions welcome, my two Spaniels drive me mad on walks, they trail miles behind and spend their walk with their heads down vole holes , they will kill and eat anything they find , baby voles, birds etc. I don't want to muzzle them but don't like the destruction and death of baby birds or critturs, .I think they got into this habit because my OH would sit on benches and let them roam rather than keep them walking and they developed a taste for ..vole! (or whatever) If muzzling is the only option can anyone suggest one that is kind and suitable, I don't want to to ruin their walks by keeping them on a lead.....!!!!!
I use the open Baskerville type for mine, means they can still sniff, drink, run and play. I use them for the same reason as you would, I know they cannot pick up anything undesirable (they are scavangers) or dangerous, or in our dogs case vulnerable - but still get adequate free exercise. It does mean the games like throwing balls is limited to the garden, but there you go. Have included Amazon link but they are available in pet shops, where you can get the correct size by taking dog along with you - but may be dearer.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005UCPPWG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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The dog is probably bored just walking, hunt the dog in front of you, train the leave it command reward with whatever floats its boat. Train breakaway from whatever it finds namely vole, dog should be working for you not self employed. Even if its show bred its still a hunting dog deep down. Not saying any of the above is going to be easy especially as its now a learned behaviour but if your up for a challenge 😉
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They arent particularly into playing with balls etc, and typical of Spaniels will listen to a point then the 'deafness' creeps in....I will have to keep close behind them and keep them moving forward, they do however know where the 'life' is long before I do and getting to them to stop them is virtually impossible...they are 7 yrs old and the habit has developed over the last 2-3 yrs
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The dog is probably bored just walking, hunt the dog in front of you, train the leave it command reward with whatever floats its boat. Train breakaway from whatever it finds namely vole, dog should be working for you not self employed. Even if its show bred its still a hunting dog deep down. Not saying any of the above is going to be easy especially as its now a learned behaviour but if your up for a challenge 😉
Good advice here - if you have a gun dog trainer locally it would be worth going along and learning how to get them to respond to a whistle on turns etc. They may be 7 but it would become a game and should wear them out more quickly than just walking (or "ratting"!)
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Wonder if anyone can suggest some harmless olution I could put on their noses or top lip to disguise or 'spoil' scents
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How about 2 wine corks :005:
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Wonder if anyone can suggest some harmless olution I could put on their noses or top lip to disguise or 'spoil' scents
I remember our trainer saying( in jest ;)) to rub some vick or similar around the nose (I think) to help with recall when we took our tests. I got the impression that those who took competing very seriously actually did this.
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Wonder if anyone can suggest some harmless olution I could put on their noses or top lip to disguise or 'spoil' scents
I remember our trainer saying( in jest ;)) to rub some vick or similar around the nose (I think) to help with recall when we took our tests. I got the impression that those who took competing very seriously actually did this.
I really hope no one fell for that suggestion! I have a cold at the moment and have been using Vicks to help with a blocked nose - it makes my eyes water and I can't really smell it.....just imagine what that would be like for a dog :fear2:
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Wonder if anyone can suggest some harmless olution I could put on their noses or top lip to disguise or 'spoil' scents
I remember our trainer saying( in jest ;)) to rub some vick or similar around the nose (I think) to help with recall when we took our tests. I got the impression that those who took competing very seriously actually did this.
I really hope no one fell for that suggestion! I have a cold at the moment and have been using Vicks to help with a blocked nose - it makes my eyes water and I can't really smell it.....just imagine what that would be like for a dog :fear2:
Wouldn't the temptation for dogs to lick it off, not sure what is in Vick, but wouldn't have thought it would be very pleasant, and may be dangerous if consumed.
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This thread essentially duplicates mine about hunting (4 yr old started hunting) so with thanks to those who replied there, I'll just use this one from now on.
Some good advice, which I tried to take on board, but after this mornings walk I feel very disheartened and unsure what to do next.
Armed with sausages and tennis balls, which had lead to a bit of an improvement in behaviour in the last few days, this morning was aaaaaggghhhh... . He was gone almost straight away and, although probably never more than 50 yards away in the undergrowth (I could see the ferns moving!) he was totally deaf. I carried on walking and looking back I could see his head appearing occasionally to check on me but even then he generally ignored my calls and whistle. A couple of times he saw me shouting and just turned straight round back into the bushes. In his own time, he did catch me up a few times but I was reluctant to reach to grab him and slip his lead on (in case I missed and he would be even more wary next time) until near the end of the walk.
Having had time to reflect and calm down a bit, I think the earlier reply which talked about boredom is probably very relevant and I also realise that my own performance has been badly lacking, his recall is clearly not good enough. As I said in my original thread, unfortunately due to illness I cannot drive now so we can usually only streetwalk round the village or walk in the local woods, hence his familiarity and probable boredom with them as we're there every day.
I also generally play ball in the garden with him every day so that holds no real attraction when we're out, which I hadn't thought about until now as he had also been keen on playing in the woods where I could at least try and get the ball to divert off a tree or into the undergrowth so he had to work rather than just run.
Sorry for rambling on but I am not really sure what to do next, so any further thoughts or advice very welcome. There was an apparently excellent gun dog trainer in the area but I understand she has recently moved away, which is a shame. What the breeder told me about show cockers not having a hunting instinct was perhaps less than the absolute truth!
Thanks, Kevin
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I don't think he is bored as he clearly likes to hunt and is allowed to do so, I think the problem is in these situations is that he does not see you as the "provider" of fun (namely hunting) but merely the facilitator" you say you use a ball and treats but in what way ?
I hide the ball a couple of yards from my feet and whistle her in giving hunt command, I also used to do the same with edible rewards. Before long the dog will associate all good things happen just yards from your feet. Also do not throw balls further than you want him to ever be from you, in other words if you throw a ball thirty yards then thirty yards becomes the fun zone but if you only throw it ten yards plus the things to find at your feet then ten yards becomes the fun zone.
Never recall unless there is something else to do on return, make recall be the start of another or even the same thing. Imo dogs are a bit thick when it comes to this, my bitch loves to stop on a whistle or recall from the hunt because I then hunt her in a different / closer direction....go figure. So in short everything the dog finds to be fun must happen at your feet. I am no expert but that's my method and how I see your current problem.
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I also never ever start a play session by throwing the ball I always get her to walk to heel even for only a few yards then I drop the ball to her, she runs around me a bit then I will throw it ten yards, so the start of the play session starts at my feet.
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Excellent advice there from ips.
You could also try scattering a small handful of tiny titbits into the grass or gravel around your feet and let him search for them. I throws balls now and again but I try to get Humphrey to use his surplus energy sniffing things out and searching for toys, balls, treats etc at home and in the garden aswell as on our walks, it seems to satisfy the hunting drive but its more controlled. I've no idea if it would help, we've always tried to include a little bit of training or a game, even if its only a short "sit and stay" , into every walk and Humphrey's never further than a few yards away from me however I don't know if that's the reason or whether we've just been very lucky. (I've never had any inhibitions about acting like a clown either and if clapping my hands and shouting "wheeeee!" when he races back to me keeps him focussed, then so be it!! :005:)
Best of luck!
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Bizzylizzie makes a good point, I always try to train or maintain something when she thinks its a game. I trained (for example) turning on a specific shoulder whilst sat on a bench throwing a ball, ten yards only I hasten to add 😁 walks are never walks and I don't believe in the term free play or free running at least not literally. Allowing either will only train or allow bad habits and furthermore free running gives little by way of stimulation mentally to the dog.
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I've read a few articles recently about this. One is a dog trainer who lives on a farm and she couldn't stop her collie wanting to herd the sheep! She said much the same thing - you have to be more interesting. >:(
I have this problem with Maddie - maybe my fault for allowing too much freedom early on or maybe it's just her genetic make up.
Keeping her attention off lead and close to us is hard work. She's not interested in balls so I throw treats to find, do basic obedience, 'touch' the hand then roll over, walk 'close' then throw one treat ahead then bring her close again, practice coming to the whistle. All this has to be food rewarded and as soon as I stop she's off in sniffing mode and too far away from me. She really wouldn't care if I went home and left her there :005:
Bramble on the other hand, rarely goes far away, but having learned the hard way, we briing her back if she does start to stray.
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I am not posting this to put myself up as any kind of expert which I most certainly am not. I am posting this vid to show the behaviour that is absolutely normal for eze and Imo as a result of training in the way outlined in earlier post as in everything good starts or happens at my feet. The video entitled free running (for want of a better title) shows a walk in an unfamiliar wood whilst on holiday about a month ago. She never goes far she constantly checks in to see if anything fun is about to happen "at my feet"
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Whilst writing this I realised that eze has of course been trained to be steady to flush and steady to feather or fur in the open therefore she will only really hunt on command and will ignore anything unless its in cover. This obviously helps the situation enormously as I suspect if dogs have not been trained as such then the urge to hunt regardless must be a strong urge to overcome. Anyway here goes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3YKBpZft0Sg
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I've read a few articles recently about this. One is a dog trainer who lives on a farm and she couldn't stop her collie wanting to herd the sheep! She said much the same thing - you have to be more interesting. >:(
I have this problem with Maddie - maybe my fault for allowing too much freedom early on or maybe it's just her genetic make up.
Keeping her attention off lead and close to us is hard work. She's not interested in balls so I throw treats to find, do basic obedience, 'touch' the hand then roll over, walk 'close' then throw one treat ahead then bring her close again, practice coming to the whistle. All this has to be food rewarded and as soon as I stop she's off in sniffing mode and too far away from me. She really wouldn't care if I went home and left her there :005:
Bramble on the other hand, rarely goes far away, but having learned the hard way, we briing her back if she does start to stray.
So what did you do differently with bramble ? Or do you think its just different dog personality's?
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I think much of it is personality. Maddie is very independent and tends to do things only on her terms, whereas Bramble wants to be with you . Whether I have contributed to this.... I don't know. I have had four spaniels now and Maddie is the only one that roams!
Interesting video. Are you rewarding her when she comes to your feet? If so with what?
I have to say when we walk in unknown places, Maddie will turn and check in, but she's always just a bit too far ahead for my liking
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I reward with a "good girl" or sending her to hunt. As I say I think dogs are a bit thick (my one anyway 😁) she will stop or recall for the reward of being allowed to continue to do what she was effectively doing before I stopped her from doing so 😊
Edit
I capture every "look" with a "good girl" she doesn't get a "good girl" unless she checks in.
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I reward with a "good girl" or sending her to hunt. As I say I think dogs are a bit thick (my one anyway 😁) she will stop or recall for the reward of being allowed to continue to do what she was effectively doing before I stopped her from doing so 😊
If you follow Susan Garrett's 'It's Yer Choice' training, she points out that permissions are highly rewarding to dogs - they produce a big dopamine hit in the dog's brain that they also get when they make a choice to do something (rather than doing it because they are told). There's a strong chemical reinforcer in permissions. Your dog's not stupid, just responding to her brain chemistry.
My dog, however, is as dumb as a bag of spanners.
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Not heard of her but will google her 😁
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I reward with a "good girl" or sending her to hunt. As I say I think dogs are a bit thick (my one anyway 😁) she will stop or recall for the reward of being allowed to continue to do what she was effectively doing before I stopped her from doing so 😊
If you follow Susan Garrett's 'It's Yer Choice' training, she points out that permissions are highly rewarding to dogs - they produce a big dopamine hit in the dog's brain that they also get when they make a choice to do something (rather than doing it because they are told). There's a strong chemical reinforcer in permissions. Your dog's not stupid, just responding to her brain chemistry.
My dog, however, is as dumb as a bag of spanners.
Fancy saying that about him, and on his birthday aswell! :lol2:
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My dog Izzy is now five and would be continually off on a scent. She entered my life like an exocet missile. As a puppy, whilst sociable with other dogs, she would play for a minute or two and then head off after anything. I had the advantage of being a sole owner with time to spend on training. My approach was to be consistent and try everything that would help in her training and development. I was one of those sad owners googling 'adolescence' to see if it lasted into a dog's third year! When Izzy was 11 months I discovered a gun dog trainer nearby. We went for 1 to 1 lessons (about 12 lessons over 18 months) Izzy didn't make it to his group lessons as she swiftly disappeared when off a line! What the sessions did give me were the tools to enable me to manage her walks. She proved to be a quick learner and I was able to carry on where the lessons left off. I taught her the turn whistle and stopping to a whistle having picked up lots of tips on the Internet. She can do a real variety of retrieves and absolutely loves it all. I, obviously, have to choose our walk areas (I don't do any gun dog work in our local recreation ground, she just has a run round in there and loves carrying a ball round.) I use an Ancol side attaching harness which you can clip any length of line or lead to. About 50 feet is the longest length I use. I have met so many dog owners whose dogs are only ever on a short lead because they can't let them go and I used to beat myself up thinking I was failing my dog. Then I realised that I could manage the situation and still give Izzy exciting, interesting walks.
Julia
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Sort of on the same topic.
I have found that rather than a recall (as such) a verbal "come" or "here" or various get here type shouts with added expletives that a "this way" works considerably better. I think its for the same reason that my girl responds much better to a turn whistle than a recall and that is because "turn" and "this way" do not signal the end of something they are merely verbal cues to do the same thing or something else but in a different direction, therefore compliance becomes an exciting thing. When I give a "this way" she looks at me whilst running towards me as if to say "what have you found for me to do now dad, were is it, what is it"
Don't know if that makes any sense or if its any help to anyone, its just what I have found with eze.
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More great advice and ideas, thanks.
Tango sounds very much like Maddie, I really dont think he'd care if I went home while he is exploring.
Agree about the use of "this way" rather than "come, or here", it does seem to get a bit more of a reaction.
Not sure if it was the correct thing to do but went out on a longish (about 15ft) lead today and tried the treats thrown around me - it did keep his attention but I dont really know how much of that was really just down to the lead stopping him running off. I also stopped occasionally en route and did some sit, stay, watch commands to vary things. Then reached one of the more open wooded areas where we normally play ball and as he had been pretty good up til then I made the mistake of unclipping the lead but, after just two throws, you guessed it...... straight off into the undergrowth with the ball still in his mouth. To be fair, I just stood still and kept quiet and he came back (sans ball) to check within a couple of minutes - before going off again once he saw me - but I had him back on the lead after a few more minutes and so to home. I have to say he looked pretty fed up when we got back and has been subdued all day, so I guess he's probably quite confused!
Clearly got an awful lot of work to do and bad habits to correct (me and tango).