CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Leo0106 on August 30, 2017, 08:11:38 AM
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Hi,
This is my first post on this forum and I am hoping for a little reassurance with regards to my working cocker Leo.
Leo is nearly 10 months old and we have always had issues with his bite inhibition.
We got him at 12 weeks old, he came from a working dogs farm used for game keeping.
Around two weeks after we got him he began the usual puppy nipping. We attempted to nip this in the bud using whimpering, saying no, stopping play, switching it for a toy etc however we soon became aware that Leo would become more excited if we reacted at all and switched to a firm NO! And walking out of the room. This worked however Leo would often continue chasing us to jump up and bite until we left the room.
Anyway, moving on through the months this appeared to get a little better until he had a small Tumor removed, fairly soon after he was neutured.
Although Leo has got better, we still have reoccurring issues with seemingly unprovoked attacks. Some attacks we have idetified triggers for. He dosnt like to be approached when he has been told no for doing something and sometimes if we say no he will flip out at us (it really hurts!). And therefore we often use a lead in the house now, so that when we can say no we can use his lead to protect ourselves and get out of the room.
Other triggers include jumping up to bite us with a growl when he has said hello to someone on a walk and has then been asked to continue walking.
Another trigger has been putting his harness on, which we now encourage with a treat and that works. But sometimes his biting is just completely random. He'll come up for a cuddle and then decide to attack my arms, or I'll be sitting at the table and he will just start biting my legs. When I move to leave the room he ups the anty and growls and barks etc.
I should point out that we also have issues with overtiredness and attention seeking, much of which makes the biting worse.
My main worries are that (a) he is demonstrating aggressive behaviour that I may not be able to train him out of. (B) he is never going to learn his true bite inhibition due to reacting so excitedly to whimpers and yelps. (C) he will end up getting overexcited with the wrong person and bite a child or someone not familiar to him.
He is, as working cockers are, very excitable, we have been doing lots of training on socialization, greeting visitors etc which seems to be working well, but we will still have atleast two 'attacks' every day. Which as you can imagine is exhausting and painful!
He goes for 3 40 minutes walks a day and also takes part in a lot of mental stimulation such as scentwork.
If you need any further information then I am happy to provide it but if anyone is able to provide me with reassurance and any guidance then I would be greatly appreciative!!
Many thanks in advance
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Sorry to hear this, you obviously have been following good advice, but it's tricky. Before he bites suddenly, do you mean he doesn't give a warning growl? Even an adolescent dog should do that. You mention overtiredness, How are you changing that? My dog trainer said that when a dog gets totally stressed/aroused with adrenalin ,it can take days to calm down. Then you should keep them in a regular routine, walking in well known routes where they don't get excited, and exercise and brain work in quiet places.
Get him to focus on you for everything, using positive food training methods. I've used a trainer, who starts by getting them to sit and look at your eyes before getting the treat, for doing anything. Jack has his morning meal measured out and used as training treats. It gives them the self control to wait until you, the boss, select the good behaviour. I'm still working on impulsive behaviour problems, but it's a matter of spotting the tiniest reaction to a trigger before it takes hold. The eye contact and treating is vital.
If blood has been drawn, you have to be so careful that a stranger doesn't get involved and report you. I have used a muzzle sometimes just as a precaution. They look awful, but i got over it.
Crockerdile puppies are normal , but 10mths is time to behave!
Overall whatever we say, I would recommend you invite a dog trainer to meet you all. Then they observe the dog , give recommendations and whether you need follow up, it's well worth the outlay. But make sure they use positive training methods, Many people feel that Cockers are oversensitive and very intelligent, so a loving and rewarding technique works best.
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Well it doesn't sound fun at all. Its a shame because having a dog is supposed to bring joy not the behaviour you are having to cope with. My initial reaction was that he wasn't getting enough physical exercise and mental stimulation but as I got further into the post you seem to have it covered.
I am sorry I cannot help with the practical side of what to do as I think you need professional help from someone who can see the dog. I wish you luck and hope you get it sorted 👍
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He is, as working cockers are, very excitable...
Hi Leo106, sorry to read of the difficulties you're facing. We also have WCS boy who's coming up for ten months. Our boy play bites with me a good deal, but its well inhibited and reserved only for me. He doesn't do this to anyone else.
I've quoted from your OP because I'm not sure what you wrote is accurate. This is our first WCS and I was expecting him to be a handful, but that's proved untrue. He is EXTREMELY calm and docile all of the time that he does not have a job to do. Sleeping, lazing around and digging holes in what used to be the lawn are his favourite leisure activities. Its only when we are out on walks that he becomes ultra busily active. Even then I wouldn't call it excitable as he's very purposeful, especially so when hunting out stuff I've hidden.
It reads as though controlling or redirecting Leo's excitability might be the key to resolving the issues you're having.
All the best
Jon
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Reading through your post, it is interesting to note that he reacts negatively to you saying 'no'. Somewhere along the line, he has paired that with something negative.
I'd suggest turning this on it's head and training self-control, not obedience to a cue. The thing about 'no' is that we humans can generalise it to different situations. Dogs can't. They pair one cue with one action. If you are using 'no' to mean a wide variety of things, it confuses them. If you've been saying 'No!' and immediately leaving the room, he has paired the cue with you leaving. So now when you say 'no' maybe he's stressed that you're going to leave. Or stressed because he knows you want something from him, but doesn't know what.
Cues should always be paired with requiring a behaviour from the dog - an action they can carry out. Have you taught him to go to a mat on command, and stay there? That's a great one for teaching self-control, and gives them an alternative behaviour that is incompatible with the behaviour you don't want ie the biting. It also makes them work for you in little ways around the house, which they just love. Basically, in every situation in which you want to say 'no', instead redirect your dog to do something else that you can then reward.
Have a look on YouTube for It's Yer Choice by Susan Garrett. That's a great starting point for teaching self-control.
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Really sorry to hear you are having a difficult time. I agree with getting a behaviorist in as they should be able to sort him out or at least help.
On a positive he is still very young so you are doing the right thing and sorting this now, the older he gets the harder it will be.
Please keep us updated, i'm sorry I cannot offer any advice but I wish you all the luck. I'm sure you will crack this!
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Very sorry to hear about your problems and well done for trying to sort it out.
I would agree that you need help from a behaviorist/trainer. It needs to be someone who can see how everyone is interacting and try to spot what the triggers are.
One random thought is to have sight and hearing checked. Although your dog is a bit young, there can sometimes be bad reactions if a dog with impaired sight/hearing is surprised. Worth a check perhaps?
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Hi all,
First of all, thankyou so much for all your kind replies. It is truly great to feel like I'm not going completely wrong.
I will try and answer all the questions people have asked so far below:
Initially, with regard to a trainer, we have been using the same trainer since he was 12 weeks old for his puppy courses, scentwork etc, she is fab and has seen his behaviour at home (she once got nipped!). She puts a lot of the issue down to becoming overexcited and also tells me off numerous times for giving too much verbal communication (I come from a childcare background so struggle to shut up sometimes!). She has given me lots of things to try but I limit how much I change at one time due to him being a very routined dog who appears to dislike too much change in one go.
Secondly, and this sort of applies to 2 of the lovely replies I received. (Pheonix and Londongirl), The overtiredness is something that was a complete shock to me, Leo really struggles to just.. give in and sleep. Instead, when he gets overtired he begins to attention seek (eating furniture etc). I first began to realise he was becoming overtired by watching how his mood changes. I soon realised I was expected too much awake time from him and began managing the situation by settling him for a sleep after ever 90minsish. This (today) appears to have worked really well. I have also been working hard to train him to settle on his bed (he has one in the lounge and in the kitchen). I guess my question with this is, what is the play to chill ratio?! should I expect him to be happy playing the majority of the time or chilling the majority of the time? I Work from home so he often is busy occupying himself, I then break this time by using scentwork training and walks every hour or so to ensure boredom does not take over.
Londongirl, thankyou so much for your comments about 'no!' I have come to realise that I am definitely too verbal and he definitely has a bad reaction to the word no and therefore I will start trying to redirect him instead.
Sodpot2000, I hadn't thought about hearing and sight issues. He has had one ear infection before.. could it cause any lasting effect? We did catch it quite early.
Please no one feel that I do not love my dog, I know I sound negative, in so many ways he is incredible! and has been so easy to train in terms of commands etc...I believe I may have just offered him too much attention at a young age.. working from home he has often had to 1-1 for long periods of time!
Thankyou so much again
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Oops sorry, also Pheonix, he does sometimes offer me a warning signal that he is going to bite. This is usually a little whine and then approaches me. I have noticed this more and more whilst searching for triggers and have been trying to avoid a bite by removing myself from the room when he does make a sound such as this.
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We know you love him, that was very evident in your post.
He is at a difficult age - Henry drove me mad when he was 10 months old as he would routinely bug me for attention. That's when I got really serious about redirecting behaviour rather than just telling him to b***** off. If you have a pup who's already excitable and struggles with bite inhibition, it's going to be a testing time. But you're on the right track seeking advice and I'm confident you'll come through this together.
You can make a fun game of reinforcing the 'got to your mat' behaviour by rewarding the release rather than the stay. Once Henry understood how to go to his mat on cue, I switched things around and only gave the reward for him coming off when I released him. I taught a 'release' cue separately so he knew that when I said 'release' from any control position (sit, down, etc) that meant to run to me for a fabulous reward. I then transferred that to the mat - making him wait longer and longer for the release. If he got off the bed without me releasing him, I didn't scold him or put him back on the bed, but he got no reward. Didn't take him long to work out that staying there meant something good would happen. Now he loves all his mats around the house and will chose to go and lie on them, because his little doggy brain has paired being on his bed with feeling good. I still intermittently do releases with jackpot rewards to maintain the training.
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Thanks Pheonix, I will definatly try making it a game, sometimes at the minute he gets a little frustrated that I'm not rewarding him constantly for being in his bed and not sleeping.
Just another question (sorry) if I am settling him onto the bed so he can have some chill time, would you give him a chew or a toy to have? Ive tried this but he likes to jump out with the chew and prance around with it
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We know you love him, that was very evident in your post.
He is at a difficult age - Henry drove me mad when he was 10 months old as he would routinely bug me for attention. That's when I got really serious about redirecting behaviour rather than just telling him to b***** off. If you have a pup who's already excitable and struggles with bite inhibition, it's going to be a testing time. But you're on the right track seeking advice and I'm confident you'll come through this together.
You can make a fun game of reinforcing the 'got to your mat' behaviour by rewarding the release rather than the stay. Once Henry understood how to go to his mat on cue, I switched things around and only gave the reward for him coming off when I released him. I taught a 'release' cue separately so he knew that when I said 'release' from any control position (sit, down, etc) that meant to run to me for a fabulous reward. I then transferred that to the mat - making him wait longer and longer for the release. If he got off the bed without me releasing him, I didn't scold him or put him back on the bed, but he got no reward. Didn't take him long to work out that staying there meant something good would happen. Now he loves all his mats around the house and will chose to go and lie on them, because his little doggy brain has paired being on his bed with feeling good. I still intermittently do releases with jackpot rewards to maintain the training.
This is a great post from LG 👍
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Sorry my last post was meant to thank you London girl for the game idea 😂
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No worries, it's all these black dogs, easy to get us confused! :005:
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One recommendation the behavourist who is helping us had was to keep a diary stating what happened, what you did and the result, that way you can more easily see what the triggers are and the best ways to cope with them. With all the great suggestions and help you have had, putting them into action and then keeping details of their success may help you and the behavourist to see where you are. A
I use a programme called Excel, this way I can write it up every day on the computer and any input mistakes can be rectified b4 I print it out or send it to the behaviourist. you can just as easily do this on a piece of paper of course
Wishing you all the best, you obviously have your dogs interest at heart :luv:
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Thanks so much for that mudmagnets. Me and my partner actually sat down last night and decided we would write everything down, he is off work for 2 weeks as of tomorrow so we would like to make sure we are being fully consistent throughout the day as I usually would be!
We had a very good day yesterday, Leo slept by my side while I worked and was happy to settle with a chew once he woke up.
I truly believe, now that I am observing him closely, that he really struggles to just entertain himself and feels as though he needs my attention. I gave him less attention and verbal communication yesterday and as a result, he actually came up for a cuddle in the evening which rarely happens now!
Small steps!
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Hi, saw this yesterday on fb and it's so true:
Perthshire Gundog Rescue SCIO
29 August at 12:11 ·
..
Cute, yes they are, Spaniels especially cockers are in my experience the one breed that are causing the most issues at the moment. People are slated for not rearing them correctly, well there is some truth in that, however, cockers can be little sods, full on, heard headed and fiery. They can be extremely frustrating for some to train as they know better than us.
You have to completely understand these little lion hearts to get the best from them, give in to them, then they will take over, rule the roost and do as they please. I have 6 cockers and they have not been without their issues, and that is because its them, not what ive made them, April will take the face off another dog if she is hacked off and so will sweep, she has a massive prey drive and that has been a challenge in her training but we have cracked it but if I don't keep on top of her, she will make her own mind up what to do . Sooty, is greedy and will steal anything the second my back is turned, other than that she is perfect in every way. Daniel, full on and very very sensitive, has been difficult to train as he just melts LOL...
So, whats the answer in taking on a cocker and raising it. Child psychology comes to the very front when dealing with cockers, be hard handed on them and it can completely loose their drive and trust, be over soft and they can be a nightmare. Some people never have one issue raising cockers and have roll model dogs, however many many people are pulling their hair out and end up giving them up sadly..
The old saying which makes me laugh as its not so much these days BUT, want an easy life get a Labrador, want something more challenging get a springer and want to completely go off yer rocker get a cocker ahahahha.'
you asked about down time and play time - in my experience it isn't having them stimulated every hour - it's about having quality brain/training/play time maybe a couple of times a day. my 10mo worker puppy is a whirlwind, but he gets about 20mins-30 mins training/play in the morning and the same in the evening. a couple of times a week he'll have a free run (to do as he pleases so long as he responds to recall) with my other 2 cockers. Unless we're specifically out training/playing, my dogs are taught to be quiet in the house. It's rest time for them and me. no games in the house/garden, and they learn to settle at home. when out they learn that it's interaction time with me. It may be that your pup isn't having enough rest time and time to himself. Apparently puppies can sleep for up to 18 hours a day... I work full time, so my dogs adjust to having time alone through the day. I can understand that it's harder if you're at home all day.
one last thing: have you considered gundog training? you say he came from a gamekeeper so he's been bred specifically as a working dog and you may find it's what he truly enjoys and thrives doing. A 20 minute hunting session more than satisfies my puppy as it keeps his brain and nose working, cements our bond and keeps him responsive. Good luck with your puppy.
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Glad to read you feel there is a little improvement.
I also was going to say, like others, that even saying 'no' is acknowledging him and rewarding him and that saying nothing at all is the better option. I have a demanding vocal cocker and I easily slip into verbal diarrhoea mode! I also over treat which winds her up more!
I try to remind myself to ignore the bad stuff and verbally praise or stroke when she is just being quiet and good.
It's amazing the difference it makes!
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Reading responses here, definitely highlights how clever/stubborn these little cockers are :lol2:
That's a great read Emilyoliver regarding the Perthshire Gundog Rescue comment - very true
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Emilyoliver, thankyou so much for your post, I found it really useful and it's amazing to see a post that reassures me that I am not the only one!
The fantastic thing is that with all the stubborness and excitement Leo presents, he also has a heart of gold, will do anything for a cuddle and a treat. And that's why we love them!!
Emilyoliver first into your post you spoke about your 10mth old cocker and it raised a few questions for me that I hope you won't mind answering. When your pup is expected to leave you be and have chill time when you're home, do you allow him to occupy himself with toys, chews etc? Also, you mentioned he is only free off lead a few times a week, Leo currently has all 3 walks a day off the lead. Do you feel that by doing this I am giving him too much free time to do as he pleases? He is fantastic on a lead so I'm wondering wether I should reduce off lead time to maybe 1 walk a day?
With regards to your question about gundog training, I have considered this in the past but to be honest would have no idea where to source the training etc. At present we are training him in scentwork and he is going to weekly classes. He absolutely loves this and is a complete natural! It also seems to tire him out.. although you would never know unless you were me because he stays awake all day 😂
Lescef thankyou for your post too, my verbal communication always gets the better of me Too! Glad I'm not the only one. Today i have tried to completely cut out any negative communication etc and although he's still been a pickle.. I havnt actually been bitten today.. so something must be working.
Through observation,and since I've had a couple of days where the biting has reduced, I have really come to notice that he is just utterly lost without me giving him attention! He follows me every time I move and unless he has a super tasty chew, he just goes for the furniture etc in the expectation that I will react. I think the underlying cause to the biting may in part be down to his inability to entertain or settle himself!
I guess to move forward now what I really would love to know is what I should expect with him.. I don't want to ask too much of the people on this forum but you are all providing me with such great advice that I would love to know your thoughts on what a normal day should look like?
If it helps I could give a brief overview of his current routine?
Again. Many many thanks for all your comments so far... sometimes it is difficult to know what to expect when I don't have anyone to talk to who has been through it!
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Our trainer once said that if the dog has been fed, watered, let out and played with then they should eventually be able to lie quietly. If it hasn't already been mentioned google 'relax on a mat'. It becomes a default setting.
There are several ways of doing it.
I think, and I count myself in this, that we try too much to humanise our dogs, especially if you are at home all day. I believe an adult dog should sleep about 14 hours a day.
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I agree with you lescef and I am attempting to get him to settle on a mat at present. Today he had a chew to settle with, normally with a chew he chucks it all over the place and plays with it today when I told him to settle he led on the floor with the chew for 40 minutes. Which is progress. I blame myself entirely as I feel we have often give into his demands when he was younger, I don't think this helped when he had his Tumor removed because he wasn't allowed to go for walks for ages (pulled out his stitches!) And therefore we gave him a lot of attention trying to keep his mind working..... we learn from our mistakes :( haha
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I've held off replying as so many others have already offered good advice but think it may help you feel a bit better about the situation if I share a bit of my story...
At 9 months old, Pearl (show type) was a nightmare. She would be awake from 5.30am until 11.30pm. I have vivid memories of being sat on my living room floor, with the intention that she wasn't allowed on furniture so I went to her level - well, that's what you do with labradors, right? Only to find she was a zooming, whirling dervish that rapidly became a low flying set of very sharp teeth. I sat and cried. If someone had come to my door and told me they were there to take her off me, I'd have willingly let them take her.
I logged on to COL and read through old posts from others that had challenges with pups. Not just your usual teething/cockerdile phase but a very real frenzied nipping cocker pup - it was a god send!
The penny dropped that she was far worse on a Sunday that any other day......the weeks routine would be up at 5.30 short walk before being settled into her crate, I would go to work and a neighbour popped in mid morning to check on her/let her out. I'd come home for lunch and spend 45 minutes with her playing hide and seek or trying to get her to retrieve (gave that up at 2 years old!) back in the crate for 2 hours - neighbour let her out and I'd be home 1.5 hours later....she would be awake all evening and upstairs, out of the crate over night. Around 9 months she stopped going into the crate in the day. Weekends were different but mostly focussed on Pearl with lovely walks, days out or visits to friends / family with her and she would be awake all day......
Frankly she was exhausted and becoming increasingly fractious. As soon as I realised this and got the crate out again - that she went into willingly - and enforced naps morning, afternoon, evening and an early night......she became a much better behaved dog! All this coincided with the lead up to her first season so may have been connected.
Of all our dogs, Pearl is the most anxious. She still demands attention and it was through Pearl and trying to find ways to mentally tire her out that I got hooked on beating (she's pretty good as a beating dog) and went to Gundog training.
We now have 4 cockers, 3 wcs and Pearl plus I met my future husband at training ;)
If you don't already have a set routine, that includes at least 14 hours sleep a day then I would suggest starting one. As Michelle has suggested, Gundog training or training that includes more than basic obedience is a great way to tire a cocker.
I was pretty naive when Pearl came home and assumed that if I was awake she could be and would settle down when tired.......not all cockers come pre-programmed with an "off-switch" :shades:
Good luck with your boy x
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I've held off replying as so many others have already offered good advice but think it may help you feel a bit better about the situation if I share a bit of my story...
At 9 months old, Pearl (show type) was a nightmare. She would be awake from 5.30am until 11.30pm. I have vivid memories of being sat on my living room floor, with the intention that she wasn't allowed on furniture so I went to her level - well, that's what you do with labradors, right? Only to find she was a zooming, whirling dervish that rapidly became a low flying set of very sharp teeth. I sat and cried. If someone had come to my door and told me they were there to take her off me, I'd have willingly let them take her.
I logged on to COL and read through old posts from others that had challenges with pups. Not just your usual teething/cockerdile phase but a very real frenzied nipping cocker pup - it was a god send!
The penny dropped that she was far worse on a Sunday that any other day......the weeks routine would be up at 5.30 short walk before being settled into her crate, I would go to work and a neighbour popped in mid morning to check on her/let her out. I'd come home for lunch and spend 45 minutes with her playing hide and seek or trying to get her to retrieve (gave that up at 2 years old!) back in the crate for 2 hours - neighbour let her out and I'd be home 1.5 hours later....she would be awake all evening and upstairs, out of the crate over night. Around 9 months she stopped going into the crate in the day. Weekends were different but mostly focussed on Pearl with lovely walks, days out or visits to friends / family with her and she would be awake all day......
Frankly she was exhausted and becoming increasingly fractious. As soon as I realised this and got the crate out again - that she went into willingly - and enforced naps morning, afternoon, evening and an early night......she became a much better behaved dog! All this coincided with the lead up to her first season so may have been connected.
Of all our dogs, Pearl is the most anxious. She still demands attention and it was through Pearl and trying to find ways to mentally tire her out that I got hooked on beating (she's pretty good as a beating dog) and went to Gundog training.
We now have 4 cockers, 3 wcs and Pearl plus I met my future husband at training ;)
If you don't already have a set routine, that includes at least 14 hours sleep a day then I would suggest starting one. As Michelle has suggested, Gundog training or training that includes more than basic obedience is a great way to tire a cocker.
I was pretty naive when Pearl came home and assumed that if I was awake she could be and would settle down when tired.......not all cockers come pre-programmed with an "off-switch" :shades:
Good luck with your boy x
A good and insightful post Jayne. Eze has never been that much bother but her behaviour definitely changes if over tired. Luckily she now has a good routine
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Hi, in answer to your question - yes, they have toys and hooves in the house so can chew on those if they choose. I just don't entertain them. I suppose they learn to rest and not demand constant interaction when they're young puppies as they are all crate trained from the day they come home. So if I can't watch them plus after play sessions/toileting/feeding, they go in their crates for rest when they're young. And then it becomes a routine. I think it's about me deciding when we'll play - rather than them demanding I do as and when they choose (as you've alluded to already).
As for the free running, I don't 'walk' my puppy in the conventional sense. I'll take him somewhere where he'll hunt under control and do some retrieving. It's all off lead. It's just not him running ahead entertaining himself. Even when out with my other 2, I have to be very careful as he gets very over-excited and can lose his head. So he rubs with them but I recall him and walk him on lead for some bits just to re-calm him. If I was to walk him 'normally' he'd very soon be racing about like a loony, and then start chasing stuff. It's a fine balance and I have to be very careful.
Saying that, all dogs are different and my other worker who works, isn't half as wired and can mange a normal walk. Although he wasn't walked with the others until at least 9 or 10 months once the obedience had been instilled.
It all probably sounds a bit gestapo-ish! But really it's not - they're happy dogs allowed the freedom they have because I am so careful when they're young. Once they have been taught to hunt under control and stop to flush/ to the whistle then they are safe to take pretty much anywhere as they are controllable in most situations - particularly where game may be present.
A big problem with many working strain cockers is that they are afforded too much freedom to self hunt and entertain while young on 'walks'. They start off nice and obedient but very often they learn what their noses are for, find game, discover chasing it is the best thing ever. And then sadly sued the rest of their days on lead :(.
I'm not suggesting you stop all off lead walking, but be very careful and try to make the walks interactive do your puppy looks to you for guidance and fun rather than outward. The basics of gundog training are really useful as even the retrieving part allows you to give your dig freedom to run off lead but under control. If you say whereabouts you are, someone may be able to recommend a gundog trainer in your area in case you decide it's something you might like to try.
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Hi, in answer to your question - yes, they have toys and hooves in the house so can chew on those if they choose. I just don't entertain them. I suppose they learn to rest and not demand constant interaction when they're young puppies as they are all crate trained from the day they come home. So if I can't watch them plus after play sessions/toileting/feeding, they go in their crates for rest when they're young. And then it becomes a routine. I think it's about me deciding when we'll play - rather than them demanding I do as and when they choose (as you've alluded to already).
As for the free running, I don't 'walk' my puppy in the conventional sense. I'll take him somewhere where he'll hunt under control and do some retrieving. It's all off lead. It's just not him running ahead entertaining himself. Even when out with my other 2, I have to be very careful as he gets very over-excited and can lose his head. So he rubs with them but I recall him and walk him on lead for some bits just to re-calm him. If I was to walk him 'normally' he'd very soon be racing about like a loony, and then start chasing stuff. It's a fine balance and I have to be very careful.
Saying that, all dogs are different and my other worker who works, isn't half as wired and can mange a normal walk. Although he wasn't walked with the others until at least 9 or 10 months once the obedience had been instilled.
It all probably sounds a bit gestapo-ish! But really it's not - they're happy dogs allowed the freedom they have because I am so careful when they're young. Once they have been taught to hunt under control and stop to flush/ to the whistle then they are safe to take pretty much anywhere as they are controllable in most situations - particularly where game may be present.
A big problem with many working strain cockers is that they are afforded too much freedom to self hunt and entertain while young on 'walks'. They start off nice and obedient but very often they learn what their noses are for, find game, discover chasing it is the best thing ever. And then sadly sued the rest of their days on lead :(.
I'm not suggesting you stop all off lead walking, but be very careful and try to make the walks interactive do your puppy looks to you for guidance and fun rather than outward. The basics of gundog training are really useful as even the retrieving part allows you to give your dig freedom to run off lead but under control. If you say whereabouts you are, someone may be able to recommend a gundog trainer in your area in case you decide it's something you might like to try.
Great post 👍
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Hi Pearly,
Many many thanks for your post, I just read it out to my partner who exclaimed 'so the dogs not broken?!?' It's a real relief.
Leo is not crate trained but is very very good at settling down for a sleep in his bed in the kitchen. He will gladly sleep for 3 hours after his morning walk in the kitchen. The problem lies when we are around, luckily we've never had any issue settling on his own but when we are here, or he's in the lounge, he just can't switch off. I've always felt guilty leaving him alone in the kitchen when I am home as I've never want to isolate him from us... but that maybe what we need to do?!
Emilyoliver thankyou so much for your reply, I think I will increase the amount of 'onlead' time Leo has, I know he is always an angel when on the lead on a 1-1 basis however is a little more difficult when 2 of us are walking him so giving him less freedom may encourage the more positive lead walking with multiple people as well. We always ensure he has stimulation on a walk, he loves a ball and we sometimes play hide and seek with him which he loves too.
I'm out all day tomorrow and have instructed my partner of the regular routine to follow with the added instruction that he should try and encourage Leo to settle and chill on his own at all costs when he is not training or walking.
Thankyou so much again
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Hi Pearly,
Many many thanks for your post, I just read it out to my partner who exclaimed 'so the dogs not broken?!?' It's a real relief.
Leo is not crate trained but is very very good at settling down for a sleep in his bed in the kitchen. He will gladly sleep for 3 hours after his morning walk in the kitchen. The problem lies when we are around, luckily we've never had any issue settling on his own but when we are here, or he's in the lounge, he just can't switch off. I've always felt guilty leaving him alone in the kitchen when I am home as I've never want to isolate him from us... but that maybe what we need to do?!
Emilyoliver thankyou so much for your reply, I think I will increase the amount of 'onlead' time Leo has, I know he is always an angel when on the lead on a 1-1 basis however is a little more difficult when 2 of us are walking him so giving him less freedom may encourage the more positive lead walking with multiple people as well. We always ensure he has stimulation on a walk, he loves a ball and we sometimes play hide and seek with him which he loves too.
I'm out all day tomorrow and have instructed my partner of the regular routine to follow with the added instruction that he should try and encourage Leo to settle and chill on his own at all costs when he is not training or walking.
Thankyou so much again
It all sounds very familiar! Pearl is now 6.5 years old and asleep on the rug in the living room :luv: there were many evenings that I thought I'd never see her do that! Coral is a completely different dog - flat out on the settee and often asks to go to bed at 9.30pm :angel: at 2.5 years old, she's very much a handful but the most obedient of all four! The other 2 are with OH at his house and at this hour will be settled and asleep.
I'm not sure if you are UK based or where your nearest trainer would be but if you can get to Ashbourne, near Leek there is a fabulous - positive only - Gundog trainer who works on the basis of exclusion. That is, your dog has to learn to be respectful (humans through doors before dogs - also safer! Etc) and earn their affection. I use this method where I can with Coral, she only gets attention from me when she's behaving, that also means that I call her to give her a fuss......it's not given if she pesters for attention ;)
There is light at the end of the tunnel but Leo sounds to be a bright lad who has you pretty well trained.......he's exactly the right age to turn that the other way around!
Jayne
X
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Until recently. I would at least once a day take myself off to another part of the house and leave Henry behind the baby gate in the kitchen. I'd do this if he was getting fractious but unable to settle in case I did something 'interesting'. Left on his own, he'd quickly settle for a nap. In internet slang terms, Henry has a bad case of FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out! Making things really boring actually helps him relax, rather than being alert for what or might not be about to happen.
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Hi Jayne
Sorry I should have said where I was based. I am UK based, living in Peterborough at present. Not sure where leeke still be in comparison to me but have started to Google local places etc to see if there is anywhere local!
My other half has got Leo today, he has been putting him behind the stair gate when he is starting to attention seek and Leo is falling straight asleep, so we know he is tired, he's just clearly not ready to let himself settle. A severe case of FOMO as you said London girl!!
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There is a Leek is in Staffordshire, roughly 2.5 hours drive from Peterborough, approx 108 miles.
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Funnily enough, Staffordshire is where we got Leo from, could be the same game keeper haha.
Trying very hard tonight to teach Leo to 'settle'. Works great providing I keep the kibble treats coming, when I try to lengthen the time between kibble he either whimpers or moves in for the kill 😂... he will settle with rawhide chews but I don't like him having them too much.
I know he is tired!!!!
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As an alternative to rawhide, have you tried bully sticks? Saved my sanity when Henry was young! Also good quality paddywack is good for keeping them occupied.
Don't worry about the slow progress with the 'settle' - it takes time. It's so good to hear you are making progress. This forum is a godsend for first time cocker owners, I know from first hand!
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Thanks Londongirl, I have seen the bully sticks before but we have had many many issues with Leos tummy! He has had anal gland issues since we got him until we have put him onto salmon and potatoe wainwrights... anything else seems to start unsettling his tummy so we have to be careful what we give them. I've been giving him the rawhide recently just because he settles well with it but would like a longer term option that dosnt effect his tummy. Are bully sticks fairly natural?
This forum has been a godsend this week to be honest. I feel so much more positive and as if I'm not the only one!
I strongly feel more and more that I have worried about isolating him too much and feel cruel if I don't let him be close to us etc but on reflection this week, knowing that he settles beautifully in his bed without us present, i feel I may just have expected too much from him.
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Bully sticks are completely natural. Henry has a very sensitive stomach and can't have any commercial treats or chews, but is fine with bully.
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Thanks Londongirl,I'll look into that tonight,
So Leo is currently in what we call his 'pen' it's basically part of the hallway leading from the lounge to the kitchen blocked off with two Stairgates. He has his bed, water bowl and some toys in there, tonight he's gone in there, led in his bed and gone straight to sleep, great!!! However I feel guilty because he's not technically in the same room as us. Am I too soft?! He's clearly tired and not distressed by being in there. I worry that I am being cruel by him being physically barriered from us? But please someone just be blunt and tell me I'm too soft if this is the case!
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You're too soft! If he's happy, he's fine. Henry regularly takes himself off to another room to chill out. When he wants to be with us, he's like a little shadow, but he's also more than fine with his own company.
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Thankyou londongirl. I feel I just need the reassurance that I'm not doing some form of mental damage by him being effectively locked away from us while he is learning to settle!
I feel I treat him too much like I would a child!
Leo has... many twice recently.. chosen to stay asleep in another room from us so I feel that may be the start of him learning.. the kitchen is his safe place I feel !
Thanks again
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Thankyou londongirl. I feel I just need the reassurance that I'm not doing some form of mental damage by him being effectively locked away from us while he is learning to settle!
I feel I treat him too much like I would a child!
Leo has... many twice recently.. chosen to stay asleep in another room from us so I feel that may be the start of him learning.. the kitchen is his safe place I feel !
Thanks again
Sounds like real progress :D
I found it incredibly hard with the first one (Pearl) and took her everywhere, let her sleep upstairs, was with me wherever I went including the bathroom :lol: not only did I create a whirling dervish but she had horrendous separation anxiety - I'll never forget going to Lynton in Devon with friends - they stayed outside a shop with their Tibetan Terrier and Pearl while I and my friend Sue popped into the shop.......Pearl howled like a banshee! :o. She doesn't even notice when I'm not with her now and although still an anxious dog is so very much better than she used to be. This in part as she has Coral to give her attention not just me and at OH house there are two humans and 3 other cockers......
You will get over the guilt. Dogs do really well living in kennels outside, often wcs are better behaved in these circumstances as they only get "hands on reward" or attention when the owner says - that usually needs to be earned ;). Clearly Leo is a much loved and very typical cocker spaniel :005:
Ashbourne is a bit of a distance to travel but if you are happy to do so once a month then I would highly recommend Lara at Ironpitts Gundogs. Let her know I've recommended her due to her positive training methods and say hello for me. I'm the other side of Shropshire so it's a bit of a journey for me but I have been over several times and will be attending her novice dog day on a local shoot! I'll have a look for trainers a bit closer to home for you as well!
Jayne
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Hi Jayne,
Many thanks for the trainer tips, my partner is in the military and goes away for 4 months in October, I don't know anyone where I live but that may be the perfect opportunity for me to travel to do some training! Will keep me busy. I'm currently enquiring about joining the world scent dog association aswell as they do a lot!
I think with Leo, the fact he has never had an issue with separation anxiety etc has made me feel as though he is perfectly ok to have my undivided attention when I am around! He is an absolute angel when I go for a meeting, I've never left him for longer than 3.5 hours but he would probably go longer if I asked him to!
Saying that, my partner goes to work 7-5 and upon his return, Leo cries if he even steps a foot outside the room.... god forbid the week he leaves for 4 months! 😂
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Thanks Londongirl, I have seen the bully sticks before but we have had many many issues with Leos tummy! He has had anal gland issues since we got him until we have put him onto salmon and potatoe wainwrights... anything else seems to start unsettling his tummy so we have to be careful what we give them. I've been giving him the rawhide recently just because he settles well with it but would like a longer term option that dosnt effect his tummy. Are bully sticks fairly natural?
This forum has been a godsend this week to be honest. I feel so much more positive and as if I'm not the only one!
I strongly feel more and more that I have worried about isolating him too much and feel cruel if I don't let him be close to us etc but on reflection this week, knowing that he settles beautifully in his bed without us present, i feel I may just have expected too much from him.
My Archie has also got a sensitive tum which was sorted by wainwrights salmon and potato food! He too has limited treats but I give him fish skin chews that I get from pets at home. They don't last as long as a bully stick (which Archie won't touch!) but they are gentle on the stomach.
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A little progress over the weekend everyone. Leo behaved beautifully when we had a house full of guests this weekend (his human uncle's and aunties)
Biting seems to be lessening, he isn't going into 'wild frenzied as much and the biting also seems to be hurting less.
He has also started curling up in my lap for the past 4 evenings, which is obviously lovely however, is there any issues with allowing these cuddles while I'm trying to gain control over situations?
I've stopped being so soft and every time he's tired but not settling im putting him behind the gate for chill out, he just falls straight asleep every time
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A little progress over the weekend everyone. Leo behaved beautifully when we had a house full of guests this weekend (his human uncle's and aunties)
Biting seems to be lessening, he isn't going into 'wild frenzied as much and the biting also seems to be hurting less.
He has also started curling up in my lap for the past 4 evenings, which is obviously lovely however, is there any issues with allowing these cuddles while I'm trying to gain control over situations?
I've stopped being so soft and every time he's tired but not settling im putting him behind the gate for chill out, he just falls straight asleep every time
It does sound as though he was over tired and by allowing him some time on his own he will be becoming a nice little dog :D
Allowing him on your knee :huh: so long as it's on your terms then I'm sure it's fine - after all that's one of the reasons you have him? By on YOUR terms I mean, he's behaved himself and earned the privilege (calm, not nipping etc) and you've called him to you and given permission for him to be up there ;). I'm sure others will have other views but there's nothing better than a cocker cuddle :005:
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Well done - small steps! ;)
Bramble would cuddle all day if I let her! I think cuddles should be on your terms not theirs. So, Bramble comes constantly during the evening hoping I'll let her up. I send her away until she is lying quietly, and hopefully forgotten what she wanted, then I call her up. Be interesting to see what others do. :D
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Ollie used to guard chairs, sofas and beds when he was on them and would guard when sitting on someone's lap if anyone else came near, so we had probably about a half year period from 6 months to 12 months when he wasn't allowed on any furniture. After this we were able to get more reliable control over him and paired an 'up' command with a 'off' command for sofas and when he had stopped snapping and growling altogether and was pretty consistent with the off command we allowed him up again for cuddles. We had a couple of difficult moments when he decided to bring a treasured toy to our laps and a few minutes later started to guard it but we sussed that out pretty quickly and ordered him away from us immediately if we thought this might happen. If you aren't having those sorts of problems I don't see any issues.
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My lot are allowed free rein in the house and can join me on the sofa if/ when they choose. However, if they start arguing over who gets to sit where, then they are told 'off' as I won't tolerate them squabbling. They know 'off' and learn that from when they're young. I don't allow them to disobey an 'off' command. They usually all curl up happily on the sofa after dinner and are quiet. No hassling for attention or anything.
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Thanks again all, I've been keeping the cuddling on my terms,
Quite often in the morning at present he likes to train and climb pup on my lap while I sit at the dining table which I'm not allowing, however when he's coming for a cuddle on the sofa it's usually after I've given him an 'up' command, I have noticed that sometimes of he wakes up on my lap he then gets a little mouthy so o am preempting this by just moving him to one side and busying myself for a short while when he wakes so he dosnt feel the need to mouth me.
Certainly progress is being made and I thank you all for being so helpful, my partners been off work for 2 days and he's not at his wits end so something must be working!!
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Itty bitty bits of progress to share all,I'm currently sat at my desk working, daddy's currently sat in his gaming chair playing PlayStation (men!!) And Leos chosen to find a chew and lay by my feet,
He chewed my office chair once (this is the usual attention seeking while I'm working) which I redirected to his bone and he's been settled ever since!
Just to clarify, 3 weeks ago, if daddy got his gaming chair out Leo would jump up on the sofa and nibble daddy's ear then chew the sofa then chew my arm. So I would say this is progress.... My one concern now is that the much needed housework is not getting done due to daddy being able to relax! But you can't win it all I guess ! :lol:
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Itty bitty bits of progress to share all,I'm currently sat at my desk working, daddy's currently sat in his gaming chair playing PlayStation (men!!) And Leos chosen to find a chew and lay by my feet,
He chewed my office chair once (this is the usual attention seeking while I'm working) which I redirected to his bone and he's been settled ever since!
Just to clarify, 3 weeks ago, if daddy got his gaming chair out Leo would jump up on the sofa and nibble daddy's ear then chew the sofa then chew my arm. So I would say this is progress.... My one concern now is that the much needed housework is not getting done due to daddy being able to relax! But you can't win it all I guess ! :lol:
Housework? What's that? :005:
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I knew what housework was before getting Leo, now its called clearing up the storm :lol:
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Cockers love housework!
Load the dishwasher - cocker climbs in and gives everything a cocker pre-wash
Empty laundry bin - cocker will 'help' you move the socks to 'appropriate' places.
In all seriousness though, very pleased that things seem to be settling down
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Haha thanks so much sodpot2000, yes the housework is a never ending game for Leo too, especially the dishwasher and the laundry!. He has learnt to leave the room when the floor is sweeped which is great because Leo used to act as 'second brush' due to him latching onto the handle and laying on the tiles whilst I attempted to sweep!!!
But yes. Things are looking up, with seemingly small adjustments he is already a different dog, he's now sleeping at least 3 hours longer during the day, we've not yet mastered him choosing to take himself off for a nap however when we are putting him behind the gate he's not making a sound.
... He's currently curled up on the sofa with daddy after half hours tug of war WITHOUT a single bite :lol2:
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/rgray1604/thumbnail_IMG_20170914_213912_zpsthz4b6hc.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/rgray1604/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170914_213912_zpsthz4b6hc.jpg.html)
To all those who have given great advice so far... here I am!
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That's great you've found such a difference - the sleeping is a biggie - they will try to stay up to be part of all the action when they can and you really do have to insist. We saw this just yesterday when Ollie didn't sleep during the day much - turned into a little toe-rag in the evening guarding every little thing he happened to stumble upon, something he would never usually do now unless extremely tired.
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My one is a right pain if over tired.
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Yes I'm really noticing that more sleep is makingnthe world of difference too.. I can even almost preempt when I know it's time to put him behind the gate for a nap now, he will randomly walk over to the sofa and chew it or nip my hand out of the blue. I walk into the kitchen to ignore the behaviour and he jumps straight in his bed. When he is rested he is either busy occupying himself or chewing a bone. Its as if he's telling me to put him to bed in a weird kind of way.... Next step will be him taking himself off to bed rather than me doing it for him but I'm sure that will take a while to come!
He's also begun getting so excited about going to bed in the evening. He is now usually sleeping till half 9 and will start stirring and we will mention the word 'bed' and he will sprint to the kitchen!
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On another adolescent note...
Leo's been odd today, edgy on his morning walk, he had his tail tucked between his legs and seemed scared of everything, hasn't been as happy to 'chill' today , has appeared adverse to touch, and this evening so far he appears to be anxious. He's had a 40 minute walk with some scentwork and training thrown in, he had a play when he got home, had his dinner, toileted and so we put him behind the gate for a nap... And he's cried for ages!! But when daddy has gone in to sort dinner out, Leo has lunged at him...... Now a month ago this was normal behaviour... But the past 2 weeks has been beautiful and this is a bit of a shock!!
Weirdly of all every time I've looked at him today, his eyes look different... Sounds weird I know but he looks glassy eyed
Any ideas on what I might not have done to meet his needs? Or is this a bit of adolescent weirdness?!
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It sounds like he has not slept - if you put him behind the gate and he was whining and agitated he maybe didn't settle and reverted to the behaviour he more commonly expresses when he is tired and has not slept.
Hard to make out what might have happened before that, but I think dogs can get spooked at times, and then experience a bit of a hangover from this. If we walk Ollie in narrow trails where there is not much room for manoeuvre due to deep wooded areas either side he will be very twitchy and nervous and walk with his tail low. In these situations he will bark at any person or dog 50m in front as he is anticipating a confrontational situation. We don't usually notice a hangover from this but it wouldn't surprise me if a dog spent a long time in a nervous state that this took a toll on them through the rest of the day.
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Thanks hoover, yes I'm not sure if something had spooked him, he wasn't as happy to sleep yesterday and maybe over tiredness was the issue... He seems completely fine today, he's just come first in his first active scent search competition! And is now napping for Britain haha so hopefully all back to normal..
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Me again!!!
So here's my question.. we've just been to my mum's for the whole weekend with Leo, ok, he wasn't an angel, he cried all of Friday night, and tried to steal my brother's breakfast.. however we had no attention seeking, I think he nipped twice the whole weekend, and most of all when he was tired, he simply laid down on the floor and fell asleep...
WHY WONT HE DO THAT AT HOME?!?!?
He simply will not just lay down in the lounge and have a nap when he's tired at home, he decides to chew the sofa, run around like a loon etc.. but none of this at my mum's. What is it about my house that makes him think he can't just chill?
I'm so confused!! (I don't want to complain, obviously I'm super happy that he is so well behaved and I feel confident taking him places but... Seriously?! )
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Me again!!!
So here's my question.. we've just been to my mum's for the whole weekend with Leo, ok, he wasn't an angel, he cried all of Friday night, and tried to steal my brother's breakfast.. however we had no attention seeking, I think he nipped twice the whole weekend, and most of all when he was tired, he simply laid down on the floor and fell asleep...
WHY WONT HE DO THAT AT HOME?!?!?
He simply will not just lay down in the lounge and have a nap when he's tired at home, he decides to chew the sofa, run around like a loon etc.. but none of this at my mum's. What is it about my house that makes him think he can't just chill?
I'm so confused!! (I don't want to complain, obviously I'm super happy that he is so well behaved and I feel confident taking him places but... Seriously?! )
Simple.....context.
He has a learned behaviour at home and the freedom to run riot. In a different place the context is different.
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I do agree with the learned behaviour but he's never had freedom to run riot that's why I struggle to understand it. We don't play games in the lounge etc specifically for the fact he's always seemed to find it a playzone, at one point I even began to wonder whether he acted the way he did in our lounge because he didn't spend enough time in there...
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Could be that when you're away you're not focussed on him solely and what he may/may not want. As you're interacting with your mum rather than focussing on him, he gets on with resting. He's probably less stimulated at your mum's for this reason and so settles better.
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I don't know about anyone else but as a child I was always much better behaved at other people's houses than I was in my own. ;)
At home he may well have the confidence to act up in ways he might not in other places.
I can't recall from before..have you tried crate training so he has a safe place to sleep at your own home and where he has no alternative but to truly relax and wind down?
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Hi all,
Many thanks for the advice again,
Hoover, we never crate trained when he was young as, if I'm honest, it never quite sat right with me, I know lots of people that recommended it but we also found toilet training, nightimes etc really really easy, he has always been very good with being left behind a gate to calm down, he has a makeshift pen in the hallway that he settles in beautifully during the day to have a chill, the only thing I have considered buying is a playpen for the lounge so that he can learn to settle in the lounge without the distraction of eating the sofa.... tonight he's come in to settle in the lounge and he's chosen to take himself off to his pen to sleep which is a first, makes me think he might actually be learning when to take himself off to settle down (after many months of doing it for him!!!) and id like to progress that into the lounge so he dosnt have to leave the room when I know he's overtired.
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Oh and yes he definatly behaves better for anyone else than us haha
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I would imagine you are coming out the other end of this and that Leo will hopefully begin to settle himself in the lounge soon. Does he have a desirable sleeping spot there already? Perhaps you can move a bed that he sleeps on elsewhere to where you would like him to sleep in the lounge so that he has an idea of what you expect of him. He might not think of the lounge as a sleeping area and at the same time not want to leave to his pen when he is tired and so acts up like a toddler instead.
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Hi Hoover,
Yes I fully agree with You, he is increasingly settling himself in the lounge at night but we still 'manage it' at the minute. He always go behind his gate for a settle and then he comes into the lounge and sleeps.
He does have a favourite place to sleep on the sofa. But more and more he chooses to cuddle one of us at the minute, I'm going to try bringing his he's in tonight to see what happens!